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Are there any alternate history fans besides me on this board?

Shattered World - A very long and detailed scenario exploring a very different WW2.

Se7en Years - This scenario isn't technically alternate history yet, but it will be. What is it about, you say? Third world war, nukes flying about, United Nations declaring war on the US...

How Mussolini won the war - Implausible but entertaining scenario about what could have happened if Mussolini had been a lot smarter.

Unification - An attempt at a 'world totalitarian victory' scenario.

The Atomic League - A very different world and a nasty America.

"It looks like a dirty beach!" - The soviets win the Moon Race.

I LOVE alt. history.

I lurk on shwi fairly often, there's a lot of fun stuff there, and some very knowledgable people.

As a Brit my favourites are Sealion Fails and An Evil British Empire. I've read Shattered Worl and Unification, I'll check out the others.

I like alternative history to a point. But I find most of the stuff that's around to be too outlandish and absurd to be worth reading, much of it should just be considered plain fiction.

I like alternative history, but I think that many of the examples of "could-have-been"s have been overused. For example, how many "what if the south had won the civil war?" scenarios do we need?

On the other hand, I like some of the more subtle ones, like "what if Pizarro hadn't found the potato in the Incan Empire?" Well, a whole fucking lot. Potatoes, when brought over to Europe, made mass starvation in war-time not so common as it had been, for example, in the Thirty Years War(where one-third of all the peoples in the Holy Roman Empire died). Then you contrast this with the Seven Years War, where(according to the historian who wrote about this in What If? 2, potatoes essentially enabled the peasant populace of Prussia to live).

The neatest example of Alt history I've ever seen was...I think it was a Nova. showed what happened if hitler had invaded russia while not needing to bail out the italians (Facilitating the invasion several months prior to when it actually happened...) Thus operation Sea Lion went well, Britain fell, yadda yadda yadda....I think it was Called (appropriately) "Hitler's Victory" excellent bit of Alt History. I should like to see a movie that shows a full aftermath of a total Nazi Victory in europe. a big budget-type film that doesn't dip to the lows of Pearl Harbor.

I played Red Alert and Red Alert 2. Do they count?

Chardok wrote:Thus operation Sea Lion went well,.

Ack. Better hide from The Great Leader.

I want to read "Guns of the South"

A book about someone traveling back in time to arm the Confederacy with AK-47's. Looks very interesting. On the cover, it has a picture of Lee IIRC, holding the famous Kalishnikov rifle.

Chardok wrote:The neatest example of Alt history I've ever seen was...I think it was a Nova. showed what happened if hitler had invaded russia while not needing to bail out the italians (Facilitating the invasion several months prior to when it actually happened...)

That would actually result in the invasion going worse; Russia was extremely wet at the time from about six weeks of heavy rain. That means the Panzers can't advance and Russian forces will escape their encirclements in vast numbers. Its funny how most alternate history ignores key details like that.

Thus operation Sea Lion went well

Sea Lion going well would be if the whole German invasion force isn't sunk by the wake of British destroyers, those Rhine barges had about a foot of freeboard.

, Britain fell, yadda yadda yadda....I think it was Called (appropriately) "Hitler's Victory" excellent bit of Alt History. I should like to see a movie that shows a full aftermath of a total Nazi Victory in europe. a big budget-type film that doesn't dip to the lows of Pearl Harbor.

Your premise is already dipping to the lows of Pearl Harbor I'm afraid, as a total Nazi victory requires legion of Aryan super soldiers equipped with every Nazi wank weapon ever theorized to march out of a dimensional portal in the middle of the US and Soviet Union, and they'd still need a superb run of luck. The world is much better off with those movie making dollars making another realstic historical war movie, rather then spreading a load of BS.

*meekly*

It was....still...okay, I get it...

(Actually, most of the series was spent explaining what occurs after the "Fall of britain" The various "Black Books" of people to be killed by Death squads, Etc. It was quite good...)


*Darts out of the thread*

Okay, I was wrong...Here is the companion website to the story, it simply assumes The Nazi's gained a foothold on land in SE UK, and moves from there..(Where I got the earlier invasion of the USSR, I don't know...though I was sure it was mentioned somewhere...oh well anyway, there it is, My bad, all!)

PBS wrote:]In the summer of 1940, after the Nazis had driven the Allies from continental Europe, the scene was set for a clash between Germany and Britain. "Since England, despite her hopeless military situation, still shows no sign of willingness to come to terms, I have decided to prepare, and if necessary to carry out, a landing operation against her," Adolf Hitler wrote in a top-secret directive. A full-scale land and sea invasion of Britain, given the code name "Operation Sea Lion," was thwarted by poor weather. Instead, fierce air combat ensued between the Luftwaffe and the Royal Air Force -- the Battle of Britain -- in which the mighty Luftwaffe were turned back to the Third Reich.

Yet, what if things had gone differently? Through archival film never before seen on television, historical re-enactments, and original footage of secret underground installations, HITLER'S VICTORY looks at the effects a full-scale 1940 invasion would have had on Britain if Hitler had succeeded.

Guardsman Bass wrote:I like alternative history, but I think that many of the examples of "could-have-been"s have been overused. For example, how many "what if the south had won the civil war?" scenarios do we need?

On the other hand, I like some of the more subtle ones, like "what if Pizarro hadn't found the potato in the Incan Empire?" Well, a whole fucking lot. Potatoes, when brought over to Europe, made mass starvation in war-time not so common as it had been, for example, in the Thirty Years War(where one-third of all the peoples in the Holy Roman Empire died). Then you contrast this with the Seven Years War, where(according to the historian who wrote about this in What If? 2, potatoes essentially enabled the peasant populace of Prussia to live).

For the record both "What If" and 'What If 2" present some of the most interesting alternate history scenarios I've seen. I am paticularly fond of the one regarding Martin Luther (being a Lutheran and all yes mock me if you chose ). That said each has compelling logic and points to very small events that could very easily have been different.

In my own alternate history I take over the world, become a benevolent dictator and wipe out stupidity, monotheistic religions and fundamentalism and TV commercials during movies out of face of the world.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Are there any alternate history fans besides me on this board?

Currently reading The Victorious Opposition by Harry Turtledove, and I've read all of his World War books about The Race, as it invaded WW2-era Earth

I am sketching out in my mind an alternative history, circa 1436. No single 'turning point', but lots of various differences, including:

* William the Conquerer turned inland and carved out a large Norman kingdom in France

* A small Romo-Brittanic remnant survived in Londinium, but the rest of Britian is divided between Anglosaxons, Celts, and Scandinavians

* The Mongols prevailed in the Holy Land. I forget the name of the battle, but it involved Egyptian forces defeating a Mongol garrison in the Holy Land and killing its commander, who, I believe, was a Nestorian Christian. In this alt. history, the Mongol commander prevailed, and by 1436 the Levant is a Latinized region, and a medium Mongol kingdom, albeit a decayed one, still exists in Persia.

* Spain is entirely Muslim and Islam has conquered much of southern France

* The Turks went east. Not quite sure yet what effects that may have.

The pacific aircraft carrier battle that took place in the final year, of the "Se7en Years" story, seems a bit off, the skills of the pilots aren't taken into effect, and the aircraft deployed on the US side are off, especially considering that the author made such statements as "a drastic rearmnament policy" was instituted. In all, I think that more realistically, that particular battle would have been a small victory on the US side. Any thoughts from you guys on this one?

Not to mention that the last few pages of the tale was just too corny and even somewhat unrealistic in some aspects, and the very last sentence of the entire story is one big hippie love-fest.

EDIT: Let me revise my statement. The last year of the "se7en years" story is just terrible. Obviously the goal of the author is to smack down the US from a hyperpower position at the end of the story, but the way he/she does it is just plain nuts.

I enjoy alternate history as long as it doesn't involve, "What if Civil War/World War II battle/incident/person was changed/won/lost/etc.?" Those are interesting up to a point, but they get monotonous after a while. I like it when people pick different points of deviation, such as, "What if the Chinese invasion fleets had not been sunk by the Kamikaze?" (The original Kamikaze was a typhoon, in case you didn't know. I think the word means "wind from the gods" or something along those lines.) And being a nerd, I love it when the points involve some technology whose use is discovered quite a bit earlier/later than it was for us.

It IS annoying when people use alt history to push one of their pet agendas, but there's stupid crap in every genre so I try not to let it bother me.

If Jesus was chosen to be set free by the Hebrews.

If Cæser didn't set up his death so Augustine would become Emperor.

If China wouldn't have sunk into isolation.

If Bismark wouldn't have been fired.

If breast implants were invented earlier in history.

I've read a little, but I just don't like Turtledove that much, and I hate how some writers like to stick in some famous historical character like some Deus ex Machina. I'll stick to my hard SF thank you.

One scenario I've wondered is how the past thousand years would have turned out had the events leading up to the schism of 1054 taken a different path, one that did not result in the Roman patriarchate breaking away from the other four.

Some interesting possibilities could have happened if that were the case. With (although likely reluctant) support from the new government of Rome, combined with the counterproductive results of the Crusades, Constantinople might have held against the Ottoman Turks.

Additionally, with the Christians still more or less unified, some of the strongest reasons that Martin Luther rebelled (purgatory, indulgences, etc) would not have even existed in the first place. Consequently, the Protestant Revolution either would not have taken place, or would have taken place at a later date, or would have been less far-reaching in its extent.

Then, if the Protestant Revolution didn't take place, we wouldn't have the Puritans or Quakers, and hence the YECs and other such idiots we have today probably wouldn't exist...

Militarily, if there was cooperation between Constantinople and the Western kingdoms, then the Western armies would be able to learn more freely of Eastern tactics, however those may have degraded since Belisarius's time. Cannons at least might have become more prominent earlier than they did in real life.

On the scientific front, things might be somewhat more troubling, since the Renaissance had a lot of people who embraced gnosticism. The prospect of a stronger Church would certainly not be good for them. Still, Aristarchus was the one who first came up with the heliocentric model, and if Constantinople wasn't sacked then it's possible that some of his other works would survive longer than they did in real life.


Beyond that, I can't think of much else. A lot of this speculation is just that, but it would be pretty hard to figure out a completely accurate alternate history when you go so far back.

SyntaxVorlon wrote:I've read a little, but I just don't like Turtledove that much, and I hate how some writers like to stick in some famous historical character like some Deus ex Machina. I'll stick to my hard SF thank you.

The problem is that if you limit yourself to Turtledove you miss a good deal of scholarly counter-factual history which stimulates a great amount of thought and imagination.

I read a book called Strike Zone. It was about the Germans trying to trap the American fleet inside of the Panama Canal on its way to the Pacific theater after Pearl Harbor. The plot ultimately failed, so it's technically not really an alternate history since nothing really changed... It was a pretty good book, though.

This is an extraordinaryly rough draft of a few differences in an alt. history scenario I'm working on; it needs *much* more research and it needs to be *much* more fleshed out. Errors and idiocies abound.

Comments are extremely welcome. The year is 1426 A.D.

* Britian, excluding Ireland, is divided into four parts. The first, and largest, is the Anglosaxon kingdom, which is the closest thing to England. The second largest is the northern Scottish kingdom, third largest is a Scandinavian kingdom, and smallest is the Roman city of Londinium. Basically, the Roman Empire decayed a bit differently than in real life and several cohorts plus auxiliaries were left on Britian when the Roman garrison left. They trained other native troop and managed to strengthen their control of the island. When the Germanics came knocking, the Romans managed to stall them for a century or two due to skilled military leadership and diplomacy. Eventually, they cut a deal with the Germanics. They heavily fortified Londinium and aided the Germanics as best they could. The anglosaxons basically wiped out the native population; as a result, Wales does not exist as an even remotely independent entity.

The Romo-Brittanic culture that lived on in London even managed to extend its control northward, but Hadrian's wall was overrun by Picts coming down from the north and though this onslaught was eventually stopped when the invaders were converted to Catholicism, Londininium had to live with the loss of much northern territory. Then the Danes came, and there were wars, and Jorvik/York was taken by Londinium (now experiencing some serious culture decay), but in the 1200's the Danes returned, retook York, captured Lincoln and even drove back England a bit.

But by now, the Danes are weakening, they rule over a mostly Anglosaxon population (except in York), and England is poised to invade. Londinium is now left with only a shadowy Romo-Brittanic culture in its aristrocracy and ruling class, as large numbers of Anglosaxons have migrated to the city and the surrounding areas.

In Spain, the duel kingdoms of Toledo and Granada arose out of the ashes of Cordova and rule virtually the entire pennisula. With the exception of the small kingdom of Leon and a few recalcitrant Basques, Christianity has been extinguished. Most of Iberia is now Sunni Moorish. Islam has even spread to southern France, where some Sunni Franco-Moorish kingdom rules and plans to expand into all of France.

In northern France, there is a vibrant Norman kingdom that was created by William the Conquerer. Ruled from Paris, it is the strongest Christian presence in France.

In Italy, The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies still exists, and has recently conquered Muslim Tripoli. A gasping Byzantine push eighty years ago reestablished Ravenna, which is already imperiled by the designs of the Papacy.

In the Balkans, the Byzantines, having fended off the Fourth Crusade, remain somewhat strong. They maintain control over Thrace, Macedonia, and Greece, although they've lost Albania and have been forced to recognize independent Serbian, Bosnian, and Bulgarian kingdoms. They've also lost most of their Aegean and Mediterraean islands to Venice.

In Asia Minor, the Byzantines have little control. Some catastrophe disrupted their control of the Bosporus about a hundred years ago, plunging Asia Minor into chaos. However, there are no Turks, as they went a different route, so Anatolia is still mostly Greek. Several independent Byzantine principalities rule there, all with imperial ambitions, although Trebizond is the one most friendly to Constantinople. Byzantine armies recently reconquered a large chunk of Asia Minor, restoring control of the Bosporus, which they have used to wrest Kaffa and Kerch from Genoa, although they lost the latter to waves of Turks who are immigrating en masse into the Crimean/Russian steppe area.

A decaying Mongol kingdom still exists in Syria and western Persia. It is Christian, although not Catholic, and ruled from Baghdad. The Kingdom of Jerusalem rules much of the Holy Land, with a Catholic kingdom also controlling much of Egypt. The entire Holy Land is a blend of Latin and Arabic culture (need a good name for that), and by now much of the population is Christian.

HemlockGrey wrote:A decaying Mongol kingdom still exists in Syria and western Persia. It is Christian, although not Catholic, and ruled from Baghdad. The Kingdom of Jerusalem rules much of the Holy Land, with a Catholic kingdom also controlling much of Egypt. The entire Holy Land is a blend of Latin and Arabic culture (need a good name for that), and by now much of the population is Christian.

The Baghdad Mongol kingdom would likely be in the religious jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch. I'm not completely sure if they would be following the Council of Chalcedon or not.