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After watching Master and Commander I was wondering what would happen if they had met up with a real American 44. Hence, instead of the French privateer HMS Suprise encounters the USS Consitution in battle instead. What happens?


Personally, I think the Suprise is doomed.

Probably.

The U.S. navy, and the Constitution in particular, at that time had an extraordinary level of training and motivation. Constitution not only carried bigger guns, and more of them, but time and time again during the War of 1812 the crew's shiphandling skills played a pivotal role.

The Acheron handed Surprise its ass on a silver platter; Constitution will inflict even more pain.

Basically the Acheron in the movie (and I believe it was the U.S.S. Norfolk in the book - though I never read it, so I'm not sure) is supposed to be one of the American 44-gun heavy frigates. Of course, the U.S. never sold such ships to any foreign power, but they ignored that in the movie in a moment of dramatic license. As they said in the movie, Surprise was simply fighting out of her weight. Aubrey was only able to take the ship by means of a deception and surprise attack.

In real life no such British frigate was ever able to beat a U.S. heavy frigate one on one. In fact, the British admiralty put out standing orders to their frigate captains not to engage an American frigate one on one, because they realized that their frigates simply weren't up to the job.

The American frigates had more and heavier guns (24 pounder cannon, compared to 18 pounders on British frigates). The British believed the 24 pounders were too slow to fire, and that if they could get off a greater number of shots, the 18 pounder would do the job better. The British, however, turned out to be quite wrong in this belief, as they learned the hard way in actual combat. It didn't matter how many shots you could fire if your cannonballs just bounced off the enemy's hull. Even worse, in a way, is that they also turned out to be quite wrong about the rate of fire. In the fight between the H.M.S. Macedon and the U.S.S. United States, for example, the United States got off 66 shots per gun as compared to 36 of the Macedon.

The greater accuracy and rate of fire on the American guns came from two things. The guns on U.S. ships were equipped with sights while the British guns were not. The British declined to use sights in order to encourage both speed of fire and their use at closer range. This turned out to be a mistake. The greater rate of fire came from the use of a new powder cartridge by the U.S. Navy. It was made out of thin sheets of lead. The British used flannel bags of powder instead. This meant the U.S. gun crews did not need to swab out their guns after each use to extinguish any burning embers left in barrel. This allowed American gun crews to achieve a higher rate of fire.

Also, the American navy may have been the one navy in the world that actually had better trained crews than the Royal Navy had - which is saying something considering that the Royal Navy earned its reputation as the best in the world. British ships had very well trained crews because they spent longer periods at sea than the ships of other navies, which gave them a great advantage over the French. But the men of the U.S. Navy normally had just as much maritime experience as British sailors. Morover, American sailors received better training in the use of their guns than the British did. The Royal Navy disliked to use live ammunition for training because their ships would be required to stay at sea for extended periods, and resupply could be a problem. However the U.S. Navy practiced quite often with live ammunition and American gun crews put this experience to great effect during the War of 1812.

Finally, the American frigates were simply better built ships. They featured structural advances like "diagonal riders" to stiffen the ship's structure and allow it to carry it heavier load of guns. And the ships were built of better wood. Most other navies used white oak to build their ships. However, in the years following the Revolution, Josia Fox, who collaborated on the design of the heavy frigate, did a study of American timber and how it compared with European wood for ship building purposes. He found that American live oak was a stronger wood, and would make for a stronger, more durable hull. The American heavy frigates were built of live oak, and it did indeed make them stronger.

Basically, the American frigate was simply a much better fighting ship than its British counterpart at that time.

Frank Hipper wrote:Probably.

The U.S. Navy, and the Constitution in particular, at that time had an extraordinary level of training and motivation. Constitution not only carried bigger guns, and more of them, but time and time again during the War of 1812 the crew's shiphandling skills played a pivotal role.

Also gunnery. Gunnery training was a premium in the United States Navy whereas such training was not emphasised beyond the basics in the Royal Navy. Combined with the ship's superior design, speed advantage, and the overall superb training of her crew, they add up to advantages no comparable frigate fielded by the British could match. One on one against Old Ironsides, HMS Surprise is doomed. Lucky Jack would wind up enjoying Issac Hull's hospitality as his "guest" aboard the Constitution.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Frank Hipper wrote:Probably.

The U.S. Navy, and the Constitution in particular, at that time had an extraordinary level of training and motivation. Constitution not only carried bigger guns, and more of them, but time and time again during the War of 1812 the crew's shiphandling skills played a pivotal role.

Also gunnery. Gunnery training was a premium in the United States Navy whereas such training was not emphasised beyond the basics in the Royal Navy. Combined with the ship's superior design, speed advantage, and the overall superb training of her crew, they add up to advantages no comparable frigate fielded by the British could match. One on one against Old Ironsides, HMS Surprise is doomed. Lucky Jack would wind up enjoying Issac Hull's hospitality as his "guest" aboard the Constitution.

Actually, gunner training wouldn't be a specific issue nor would shiphandling relative to HMS Suprise (definitely compared to the Royal Navy but not the specific ship in this scenario). Jack Aubery was unusual in that he had a crew drilled to the highest standards and so it's going to matter more what the ships themselves can do.



(PS: this is simply to play devil's advocate)

Stormbringer wrote:
Actually, gunner training wouldn't be a specific issue nor would shiphandling relative to HMS Suprise (definitely compared to the Royal Navy but not the specific ship in this scenario). Jack Aubery was unusual in that he had a crew drilled to the highest standards and so it's going to matter more what the ships themselves can do.
(PS: this is simply to play devil's advocate)

The American advantage in weight of broadside and hull strength is still overwhelming. Basically any hit on the Constitution's hull will bounce off, unless it's lucky enough to hit a gunport. But that won't happen very often if at all. American gunfire meanwhile will easily punch through the side of Suprise and devastate her gun crews.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:
Actually, gunner training wouldn't be a specific issue nor would shiphandling relative to HMS Suprise (definitely compared to the Royal Navy but not the specific ship in this scenario). Jack Aubery was unusual in that he had a crew drilled to the highest standards and so it's going to matter more what the ships themselves can do.
(PS: this is simply to play devil's advocate)

The American advantage in weight of broadside and hull strength is still overwhelming. Basically any hit on the Constitution's hull will bounce off, unless it's lucky enough to hit a gunport. But that won't happen very often if at all. American gunfire meanwhile will easily punch through the side of Suprise and devastate her gun crews.

The shots aren't going to bounce at closer range (which Aubery favors anyway), while they are tougher than that of any English, French or Spanish frigate of the time they are not so tough as to be invulnerable nor does that protect everything. If she looses her wheel or rudder or is dismasted Constitution is as vulnerable to raking as any ship.

The sheer firepower advantage is a significant but it's not impossible to overcome under the right circumstances.

Stormbringer wrote:
The shots aren't going to bounce at closer range (which Aubery favors anyway), while they are tougher than that of any English, French or Spanish frigate of the time they are not so tough as to be invulnerable nor does that protect everything.

Actually the fire will largely bounce off at close range. As it was all-wooden warship hulls of the time repelled most fire at the lower levels, HMS Victory at Trafalgar for example didn't have a single man killed on the gun deck. The Constitution's went beyond this.

If she looses her wheel or rudder or is dismasted Constitution is as vulnerable to raking as any ship.

Both ships are equally vulnerable to such chance hits so its irrelevant.

The sheer firepower advantage is a significant but it's not impossible to overcome under the right circumstances.

No one ever managed it.

Stormbringer wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:
Actually, gunner training wouldn't be a specific issue nor would shiphandling relative to HMS Suprise (definitely compared to the Royal Navy but not the specific ship in this scenario). Jack Aubery was unusual in that he had a crew drilled to the highest standards and so it's going to matter more what the ships themselves can do.
(PS: this is simply to play devil's advocate)

The American advantage in weight of broadside and hull strength is still overwhelming. Basically any hit on the Constitution's hull will bounce off, unless it's lucky enough to hit a gunport. But that won't happen very often if at all. American gunfire meanwhile will easily punch through the side of Suprise and devastate her gun crews.

The shots aren't going to bounce at closer range (which Aubery favors anyway), while they are tougher than that of any English, French or Spanish frigate of the time they are not so tough as to be invulnerable nor does that protect everything. If she looses her wheel or rudder or is dismasted Constitution is as vulnerable to raking as any ship.

The sheer firepower advantage is a significant but it's not impossible to overcome under the right circumstances.

The U.S. captain is likely to pound her to matchwood before she can get so close. He's going to want to use the greater effetive range of his guns to his advantage, and avoid a close fight where the British guns might pierce, or the British swabbies might try to grapple and board, until he's crippled the British frigate and killed or wounded a significant portion of her crew.

As I said, no British frigate ever beat an American heavy frigate one on one, and there's a good reason why.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:
The shots aren't going to bounce at closer range (which Aubery favors anyway), while they are tougher than that of any English, French or Spanish frigate of the time they are not so tough as to be invulnerable nor does that protect everything.

Actually the fire will largely bounce off at close range. As it was all-wooden warship hulls of the time repelled most fire at the lower levels, HMS Victory at Trafalgar for example didn't have a single man killed on the gun deck. The Constitution's went beyond this.

It was superior to that of frigates of it's day but it wasn't perfect.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

If she looses her wheel or rudder or is dismasted Constitution is as vulnerable to raking as any ship.

Both ships are equally vulnerable to such chance hits so its irrelevant.

Yes, but the simple fact is that if Aubrey's smart enough he can still aim to cripple or dismast Constitution and either rake her or board her.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

The sheer firepower advantage is a significant but it's not impossible to overcome under the right circumstances.

No one ever managed it.

Entirely true, but mostly because the engagements they fought were fairly limited and the British captain botched the chances. With some one like Aubery that's not likely to happen.

Perinquus wrote:The U.S. captain is likely to pound her to matchwood before she can get so close. He's going to want to use the greater effetive range of his guns to his advantage, and avoid a close fight where the British guns might pierce, or the British swabbies might try to grapple and board, until he's crippled the British frigate and killed or wounded a significant portion of her crew.

As I said, no British frigate ever beat an American heavy frigate one on one, and there's a good reason why.

Yeah, open ocean fights aren't conducive to boarding or close range actions. Now the scenario here (Constitution replacing Acheron) does give the Suprise a fighting chance.

Stormbringer wrote:Yeah, open ocean fights aren't conducive to boarding or close range actions. Now the scenario here (Constitution replacing Acheron) does give the Suprise a fighting chance.

Not really. Acheron went after Surprise thinking her a whaler. But to the best of my knowledge, the Constitution was never used as a commerce raider, so such a deception would not work, as the American ship would never have pursued what she thought to be a merchant vessel. So Aubrey's ploy would not work in this case.

Perinquus wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:Yeah, open ocean fights aren't conducive to boarding or close range actions. Now the scenario here (Constitution replacing Acheron) does give the Suprise a fighting chance.

Not really. Acheron went after Surprise thinking her a whaler. But to the best of my knowledge, the Constitution was never used as a commerce raider, so such a deception would not work, as the American ship would never have pursued what she thought to be a merchant vessel. So Aubrey's ploy would not work in this case.

No, but then again Suprise never existed (and if I remember right was paid off before 1812). What I wanted to know was what would the Constitution be able to do if it replaced the Acheron. I didn't mean this to replay the battle from M&C but rather to have the two ships have the same mission.


And yes, Constitution did make commerece raiding sorties. In fact that's what she was doing during the war of 1812.

I remember some guy on the newsgroups pitting the Constitution against the Belfast thinking the latter ship was from the same era, obviously he got mixed up (somehow) with the HMS Victory.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I remember some guy on the newsgroups pitting the Constitution against the Belfast thinking the latter ship was from the same era, obviously he got mixed up (somehow) with the HMS Victory.

It's hardly fair sending a light cruiser against a battlecruiser.

phongn wrote: It's hardly fair sending a light cruiser against a battlecruiser.

Entertaining though, at least until Constitution finds the range and things end abruptly

The Surprise would be blown out of the water in any straight-up fight. As has been said before by other posters, it's almost impossible for a light frigate to fight against a heavy one, and coupled with all of the American advantages (larger, shorter-ranged canons against British light ones, sights, rate of fire, maritime experience, morale, ship-design and materials, etc.), and the fight becomes very lopsided very quickly. Even the Acheron was able to quickly and easily defeat the Surprise, which was only able to win because of Aubrey's tricks. In a straight up fight, the larger ship would probably win quite easily.

Next up; GCS vs. ISD!

Constitution's called Old Ironsides for a reason. Liveoak hull. The Surprise wouldn't stand a chance.