ST-SW Spirituality Contradiction

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I've noticed a somewhat bizarre contradiction, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one...

The majority of Star Trek fans I've met seem to be very spiritual, almost quasi-religious people -- very similar to moderate Christians in a lot of ways.

The majority of the Star Wars fans I've met have been, with only a very few exceptions, extremely analytical atheists or agnostics who insist on placing logic and analysis above intuition and spiritual considerations.

The strangeness lies in this: Star Trek, whose fans largely seem to be spiritual people, holds secular humanism as its ideology. Star Wars, conversely, celebrates a quasi-Shintoist mysticism, predestination and other spiritual story elements.

Has anyone else noticed this? Anyone have any thoughts on it?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

No.

Sounds to me like you're making hasty generalizations and just making shit up.

Modern Christians are "quasi-religious"? LOL. You're thinking of the recent bullshit new age movement.

[Alferd Packer]

Well, I've noticed that the Empire closely resembles a theocracy, but as for the fans, I'd imagine they, like Star Trek fans, come from every religious background. You have to remember, also, that most internet fans of one or the other are far more zealous than your average Warsie or Trekkie.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

No.

Sounds to me like you're making hasty generalizations and just making shit up.

Modern Christians are "quasi-religious"? LOL. You're thinking of the recent bullshit new age movement.

Hasty generalizations, not at all. As I said, these are things I've noticed first-hand. And no, I'm not describing Christians as "quasi-religious", I'm describing quasi-religious Trekkies as having much in common with moderate Christians.

[Evil Jerk]

Well, I've noticed that the Empire closely resembles a theocracy,

How on Earth does the Empire resemble a theocracy?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, I've noticed that the Empire closely resembles a theocracy,

How on Earth does the Empire resemble a theocracy?

That had even me scratching my head...

[Eleas]

I've noticed a somewhat bizarre contradiction, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one...

The majority of Star Trek fans I've met seem to be very spiritual, almost quasi-religious people -- very similar to moderate Christians in a lot of ways.

Without wanting to offend, I think you could safely strike "moderate" from that list. That name doesn't apply to most Trek fans I've met.

The majority of the Star Wars fans I've met have been, with only a very few exceptions, extremely analytical atheists or agnostics who insist on placing logic and analysis above intuition and spiritual considerations.

And why not? I sometimes think it has to do with conformity vs free will. Trek's ideal society seems to be an Orwellian nightmare, whereas such totalitarian regimes embody the very concept of evil in Star Wars.

This is, of course, a pretty nasty thing to say, and I do hope it's not true. But it's an easy conclusion to leap to.

[greenmm]

Well, I've noticed that the Empire closely resembles a theocracy,

How on Earth does the Empire resemble a theocracy?

That had even me scratching my head...

Theocracy doesn't seem quite right, although perhaps it's because they assume that the advisors seen in ROTJ on the DS2 are Dark Jedi.

If anything, it could be an Anti-Theocracy, with the Empire hunting down and exterminating the previous Theocracy (i.e. Republic with the Jedi Order).

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I've noticed a somewhat bizarre contradiction, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one...

The majority of Star Trek fans I've met seem to be very spiritual, almost quasi-religious people -- very similar to moderate Christians in a lot of ways.

Without wanting to offend, I think you could safely strike "moderate" from that list. That name doesn't apply to most Trek fans I've met.

The majority of the Star Wars fans I've met have been, with only a very few exceptions, extremely analytical atheists or agnostics who insist on placing logic and analysis above intuition and spiritual considerations.

And why not? I sometimes think it has to do with conformity vs free will. Trek's ideal society seems to be an Orwellian nightmare, whereas such totalitarian regimes embody the very concept of evil in Star Wars.

This is, of course, a pretty nasty thing to say, and I do hope it's not true. But it's an easy conclusion to leap to.

Actually, these are all good points -- both Trekkies and Christians seem to fall into an ideology of Democratic Socialism -- I don't know if that's an accurate term, and I'm sure there are those who will vehemently disagree, but that's my take on them.

EDIT: All of that, though, strays from the point of my confusion regarding this: that the majority of Wars fans I've encountered hold ideologies opposed to the inherent spirituality of Star Wars, and the Trek fans I've met hold ideologies opposed to the secular humanist ideology of Trek.

[Eleas]

Actually, these are all good points -- both Trekkies and Christians seem to fall into an ideology of Democratic Socialism -- I don't know if that's an accurate term, and I'm sure there are those who will vehemently disagree, but that's my take on them.

EDIT: All of that, though, strays from the point of my confusion regarding this: that the majority of Wars fans I've encountered hold ideologies opposed to the inherent spirituality of Star Wars, and the Trek fans I've met hold ideologies opposed to the secular humanist ideology of Trek.

Allright. It is strange, I agree.

Maybe the idea is that it's supposed to be fiction. Many religious people might not want to read about spiritual forces and suchlike as they want what to them is fiction, so their favored entertanment is a universe without mystical forces, and vice versa.

I don't particularly believe in this myself, but it's one possibility I suppose.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

That's a good possibility... Wars fans, who on average tend to be logical more than spiritual, see the mystical saga of SW as entertaining escapist fiction, whereas spiritual, I-wanna-believe types see nothing in Trek to oppose their belief systems...

[Durandal]

Pseudoscience appeals to religious nuts.

[Raptor 597]

I've noticed a somewhat bizarre contradiction, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one...

The majority of Star Trek fans I've met seem to be very spiritual, almost quasi-religious people -- very similar to moderate Christians in a lot of ways.

The majority of the Star Wars fans I've met have been, with only a very few exceptions, extremely analytical atheists or agnostics who insist on placing logic and analysis above intuition and spiritual considerations.

The strangeness lies in this: Star Trek, whose fans largely seem to be spiritual people, holds secular humanism as its ideology. Star Wars, conversely, celebrates a quasi-Shintoist mysticism, predestination and other spiritual story elements.

Has anyone else noticed this? Anyone have any thoughts on it?

Nah, I know somw religious Warsies though most act as Jedi. THey often use Wars as a getaway from Fundamentalism. MOst Religious Wars are intimidated too much too show. I glad I showed up, pulled me away from Fundiesm.

[Master of Ossus]

Star Trek also appears to advocate Communism/socialism, which is strange for spiritual people to enjoy. I think that, if this trend exists, it would have more to do with the premises of both universes, and the manner in which they are each constructed--with SW being based on Arthurian legend and ST being based off of a jumble of small morality plays.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Star Trek also appears to advocate Communism/socialism, which is strange for spiritual people to enjoy. I think that, if this trend exists, it would have more to do with the premises of both universes, and the manner in which they are each constructed--with SW being based on Arthurian legend and ST being based off of a jumble of small morality plays.

That point ties in, actually, quite nicely with a larger explanation: Trek fans tend to favor the status quo (seeing the Democratic Socialist oriented Federation in much the same way that some of them might view whatever brand of church or belief system), whereas Wars fans view the message of righteous rebellion in the same way they view the scientific method as a justified rebellion against religious oppression.

[Kuja]

Pseudoscience appeals to religious nuts.

LOL, that's a good point.

[greenmm]

I've noticed a somewhat bizarre contradiction, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one...

The majority of Star Trek fans I've met seem to be very spiritual, almost quasi-religious people -- very similar to moderate Christians in a lot of ways.

Without wanting to offend, I think you could safely strike "moderate" from that list. That name doesn't apply to most Trek fans I've met.

The majority of the Star Wars fans I've met have been, with only a very few exceptions, extremely analytical atheists or agnostics who insist on placing logic and analysis above intuition and spiritual considerations.

And why not? I sometimes think it has to do with conformity vs free will. Trek's ideal society seems to be an Orwellian nightmare, whereas such totalitarian regimes embody the very concept of evil in Star Wars.

This is, of course, a pretty nasty thing to say, and I do hope it's not true. But it's an easy conclusion to leap to.

Actually, these are all good points -- both Trekkies and Christians seem to fall into an ideology of Democratic Socialism -- I don't know if that's an accurate term, and I'm sure there are those who will vehemently disagree, but that's my take on them.

EDIT: All of that, though, strays from the point of my confusion regarding this: that the majority of Wars fans I've encountered hold ideologies opposed to the inherent spirituality of Star Wars, and the Trek fans I've met hold ideologies opposed to the secular humanist ideology of Trek.

Democratic Socialism? What exactly is that?

[Kelly Antilles]

Star Wars fans prefer fantasy, rather than something to believe in.
Star Trek fans tend to believe that is their future.

[Lagmonster]

Star Wars fans prefer fantasy, rather than something to believe in.
Star Trek fans tend to believe that is their future.

Clever. Basically, Star Wars lacks the intense cult following that Star Trek has.

Have any of you ever wondered what happens to the myriad trekkies that we defeat in the VS debates? They slink off to trek-only sites and hang with their friends and talk about how superior a world trek would be to live in, and basically how it compares to the here and now, and often abandon discussing trek from a military standpoint.

You just can't tame a trekkie. The truest ones live in a world where 'everything would be better if...'

[greenmm]

Star Wars fans prefer fantasy, rather than something to believe in.
Star Trek fans tend to believe that is their future.

hey now, some of us SW fans enjoy watching ST, too. Myself, I place both within "fantasy". But then, there's always some nutcases that consistently confuse reality with fantasy (and usually also get us RPG fans in trouble with the fundies)...

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Star Wars fans prefer fantasy, rather than something to believe in.
Star Trek fans tend to believe that is their future.

hey now, some of us SW fans enjoy watching ST, too. Myself, I place both within "fantasy". But then, there's always some nutcases that consistently confuse reality with fantasy (and usually also get us RPG fans in trouble with the fundies)...

Exactly... let's not forget the 350 lb. walking beach balls wandering around the streets in terrifyingly stretched leather tunics... You know these guys -- complete delusionals who think they're the reincarnation of King Arthur or something because they've read LotR too many fucking times and lost their grip... trust me, I'd rather deal with delusional SF/ST/SW fans any time. At least they don't adopt those fucking awful parodies of Elizabethan English...

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Star Wars fans prefer fantasy, rather than something to believe in.
Star Trek fans tend to believe that is their future.

Clever. Basically, Star Wars lacks the intense cult following that Star Trek has.

Have any of you ever wondered what happens to the myriad trekkies that we defeat in the VS debates? They slink off to trek-only sites and hang with their friends and talk about how superior a world trek would be to live in, and basically how it compares to the here and now, and often abandon discussing trek from a military standpoint.

You just can't tame a trekkie. The truest ones live in a world where 'everything would be better if...'

That's actually not such a bad mindset. I mean, the basic difference here is the type of science-fiction we're dealing with. Trek isn't hard SF, even in its best incarnations. It's Bradbury stuff, at its core, and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you take it for what it is.

Wars (and I know I'm going to get burnt for this) doesn't strike me as being science-fiction at all. Yes, there are spaceships and laser guns and robots and all that, but that, really, is the background for the story, not an integral part of it. Star Wars, primarily, is sword-and-sorcery with science fiction window dressing. And again, that's not a bad thing if you can take it for what it is.

[Kelly Antilles]

Wars (and I know I'm going to get burnt for this) doesn't strike me as being science-fiction at all. Yes, there are spaceships and laser guns and robots and all that, but that, really, is the background for the story, not an integral part of it. Star Wars, primarily, is sword-and-sorcery with science fiction window dressing. And again, that's not a bad thing if you can take it for what it is.

It's fantasy with a "sci-fi" twist. Concidering it's based on an old Japanese movie, it can only be fantasy.