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Maj.-Gen. Valery Gerasimov, center, commander of Russia's 58th army, and other officials look at a flag captured from rebels during fighting near the village of Galashki, 100 kilometers (62 miles) south of Nazran, in the Russian republic of Ingushetia near the border with Chechnya, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2002. A Russian military helicopter was shot down early Thursday in Galashki, killing two crewmen, the Russian Defense Ministry said. At least 10 Russian servicemen were killed in fierce fighting with rebels.(AP Photo/Ivan Sekretarev)


A Russian officer looks at the bodies of Chechen fighters killed in combat near the village of Galashki, 100 kilometers (62 miles) south of Nazran in the Russian republic of Ingushetia near the border with Chechnya, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2002.


Russian soldiers ride on an armored personnel carrier after heavy fighting with rebel fighters near the village of Galashki, 100 kilometers (62 miles) south of Nazran


Russian soldiers rest near an armored personnel carrier after heavy fighting with rebel fighters near the village of Galashki, 100 kilometers (62 miles) south of Nazran


Russian soldiers carry a grenade launcher after heavy fighting with rebel fighters near the village of Galashki, 100 kilometers (62 miles) south of Nazran



Local residents look at the debris of a Mi-24 military helicopter shot down during a fighting with rebels in the village of Galashki, 100 kilometers (62 miles) south of Nazran, in the Russian republic of Ingushetia near the border with Chechnya, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2002. Two crewmen were killed.

VLADIKAVKAZ, Russia - A Russian general claimed Wednesday that federal troops have eliminated the remnants of a rebel group that crossed the border from Georgia, shot down a helicopter and engaged in intense fighting with Russian forces near Chechnya (news - web sites).

Maj. Gen. Vladimir Chirkin, the chief of staff of the 58th army, said the operation against the rebel group in Ingushetia, a Russian region next to Chechnya, has been completed, according to the Interfax news agency.

"The rebel group is completely destroyed," Chirkin was quoted as saying.

Fighters from a 200-strong rebel group that Russian authorities say crossed into Ingushetia from Georgia on Sept. 26 shot down a helicopter and clashed with Russian troops, killing at least 17 in the first few days of fighting.

Chirkin said a total of 21 soldiers of the 58th army were killed and 25 wounded fighting the group, and that 70 rebels were killed and eight taken prisoner. There was no way to verify the claim, and Russian officials routinely inflate rebel losses in their reports.

In Chechnya, Russian aviation pounded at suspected rebel bases in the mountainous Vedeno region. The military used artillery in the Vedeno, Itum-Kale and Achkoi-Martan districts, an official in Chechnya's Moscow-backed administration said.

Rebels attacked Russian positions 16 times over the previous 24 hours, killing five servicemen and wounding six, the official said on condition of anonymity.

On Tuesday, militants clashed with riot police near the settlements of Shalazhi and Vedeno, killing three policemen, the official said.

In Grozny, Chechnya's capital, one policeman died of wounds after his detachment was fired on and another was killed by a land mine, the official said. A third police officer was killed in the town of Sernovodsk.

Meanwhile, the chief of Chechnya's Security Council, Rudnik Dudayev, said that 1,600 of the region's residents have gone missing since Russian troops returned in 1999, according to Interfax.

Human rights advocates blame most of the disappearances on Russian troops, who have been accused of arbitrarily detaining Chechen men and torturing and killing detainees. Civilians say they are forced to hand over large bribes in exchange for the release of a relative or to receive his body for burial.

Dudayev said that despite the Chechen government's efforts to protect civilians' rights, there were still reports of violations by troops in some villages.

Moscow fought a 1994-96 war with Chechen separatists that ended in de facto independence for the region. Russian troops returned in 1999 after rebels raided a neighboring region and after apartment house bombings that killed more than 300 people were blamed on Chechen militants.

Wow, shep, favoring the russians

Doesn't the general look a little young?

NecronLord wrote:Wow, shep, favoring the russians

Hey, they're not commies anymore, and their enemy is a bunch of
fanatical islamic nuts trying to carve their own IRAN out of Russian
territory.......

Good work Russia!!

Nice to see someone doing thier part to riegn islamic fundementalists in.

We should pay Russia a reward for every kill, to increase the incentive for a vigorous and brutual campaign.

NecronLord wrote:Wow, shep, favoring the russians

Doesn't the general look a little young?

Hey, Russia's desperate for volunteers. they'll use dogs in the army if they have to.

You no fuck with Mother Russia! They don't retreat after one soldier gets a bloody tooth ache, no do they give a shit what anyone says. They come in force and make you go boom.

Yah life is pretty cheap. Ever since they started becoming hard core with Putin, I have had a soft spot for Russia.

did you hear about russia's flat tax??? its completely awesome. I love it. I wish we would adopt it here in the states.

There are large parts of the Muslim world which are behaving just like the Christians did 600 years ago. Only this time, they don't hold a military advantage.

Darth Wong wrote:There are large parts of the Muslim world which are behaving just like the Christians did 600 years ago. Only this time, they don't hold a military advantage.

Yup...




Anyone find it ironic these rebels probably use AK-47s?

Anyone find it ironic these rebels probably use AK-47s?

Its only Ironic if I get one

Actually they use AK-74's for the most part. The Russian army stopped using AK-47's decades ago, and the Rebels equipment is basically all captured or stolen from unguarded depots. Though they have bought some stuff on the open or black markets.

I've heard that the Chechens are pretty typically equipped for most poor, rebel groups. As such, they will have lots of AK-style assault rifles, primarily delivered by the Chinese and Soviets during the Cold War. They also have lots of RPG's, and some assorted, older-model machine guns. I've even heard that they've been getting their hands on some real weapons, though, from Greece and through the Balkans. Even some high-level H&K models from Germany, but those appear to be available to them in much smaller quantities.

RPG though are extremly prevlant, I know somone who was over there last year(7/04/01-8/22/01 to be exact) and the Street Dealers in Turkey where offering TEN Doller RGPs(The one-shot anti-tank kind)

AK-74s(Chineese model) for less than eighty incudling "shipping" back to America and H&K Rifle's for less than four-hundred also with shipping

These are U.S. dollars?

No Swiss Dollers!

Of course American!

Its call *Doller the world over, even when I Canaidia it was the *Candian Doller and the Doller(American) and fokes I know who went Elsewhere also say *Doller means american never anything else

Then this must mean if I move to a third world nation I can buy a tank...
(looks up at ceiling and strokes chin thoughtfully).

Master of Ossus wrote:I've heard that the Chechens are pretty typically equipped for most poor, rebel groups. As such, they will have lots of AK-style assault rifles, primarily delivered by the Chinese and Soviets during the Cold War. They also have lots of RPG's, and some assorted, older-model machine guns. I've even heard that they've been getting their hands on some real weapons, though, from Greece and through the Balkans. Even some high-level H&K models from Germany, but those appear to be available to them in much smaller quantities.

Today that what there equipment is like, all light weapons. However during much of the fighting in the first and second wars, they had a lot of heavy weapons and equipment comparable to any modern infantry. Though there artillery never exceeded 200 guns and heavy mortars and they only had about 50 pieces of armor for the first war, 20 or so for the second.

Still it was enough to let them fight openly with the Russians rather then hit and run.

Maybe they would have lasted longer if they used their weapons in a hit-and-run manner.

Nice article

I'm not a fan of Islamic fundamentalist psychos trying to create a theocracy in a country slowly recovering from 70 years of communist authoritarianism.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Maybe they would have lasted longer if they used their weapons in a hit-and-run manner.

No. Once split up they become much easier prey, and would have been quickly destroyed. it also would have made most of there heavy weapons useless.

The introduction of a couple mortars and truck mounted machine guns to a fight may not seem like much, but in fact it can greatly alter the balance.

If they used some of their light tanks and transports in small groups to hit targets at night and then sped away, this wouldn't have helped at all?

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:If they used some of their light tanks and transports in small groups to hit targets at night and then sped away, this wouldn't have helped at all?

This did this somewhat, but such tactics could not win and exposed there personla far to much.

What Light tanks are you thinking of anyway? They had about 20-30 tanks for the second war, and all where T-72's and T-80's. Those don’t work well for hit and run, especially when the front lines are crawling with aircraft, ground search radars, and of course Russian armor, lots of Russian armor.

The Chechens had to fight at a distance within a self-supporting web of emplacements that slowly moved back towards Grozny, then into the mountains. Once it broke the Russians gained control of Chechnya. They did launch one major counter attack, but while the gained some ground the Russians easily ground it down.

At that point the Chechens had to resort to guerrilla warfare across the boarder. This was inflicted causality but not on the scale of 1994-96 and it is not going to win them another period of peace or independence like it did in the first war.

And that is the problem. They are defeated but far to bitter to give up.

I'm not a military expert like you are. I'm better than the average person, but do not know everything in-depth as you and others on this message board do. So I assumed they had light tanks that were suited for hit-and-run tactics, as those are what seem to be their best bet for causing any real damage to a much larger and over-all better military.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I'm not a military expert like you are. I'm better than the average person, but do not know everything in-depth as you and others on this message board do. So I assumed they had light tanks that were suited for hit-and-run tactics, as those are what seem to be their best bet for causing any real damage to a much larger and over-all better military.

Most armed forces don’t have light tanks. Though a lot of nations offer them fro export. With the exception of a few PT-76's, the Russians don’t have anything with a significant gun below a T-72 that not an infantry carrier. Those lack the armor for such operations, and don’t have mobility any better then tanks unless they have to cross a water barrier, something Chechnya does not have.

Attacking means spending lives to inflict damage. This is not a winning solution when its 85,000 vs. 5000. In the defense the Chechens could reley on expending ammunition more so then their manpower to do quite a bit of damage to the advancing Russians.

So this is what they did, there planning was basically a collapsing bag defense, pulling in on three sides back towards Grozny. The idea was that by the time the Russians reached Grozny they would be worn out and there could be a repeat of the 1994 and 5 battles for the city. Within the city Russia heavy weapons advantage would be less of an issue, and their infantry would already be ground down from the open fighting, the Chechens tended to aim for BTR's and BMP's more so then tanks.

However the Russians prove much better fighters the second time around and managed to take the city much faster, basically by leveling most of it. At that point the Chechens collapsed and or the most part abandon the province, with most fighters who where left alive managing to escape into Georgia before the Russians could close the passes.

And thus we end up with the current conflict, and some really bizzare pieces of Russian armor on the market intended for urban combat.

With no chances of defeating a real military, one wonders why the hell these people try to fight in the first place.