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The Sad State of Aviation...

Posted: 2004-01-06 11:53pm
by MKSheppard
Consider, that to buy a new build airplane, the Cessna 172,
costs me $150,000, and a very expensive pilot certification program...

While with my drivers license, and some classes, I can fly this:

Image

The T-51 Mustang, and it can be yours for only $50,000!

Comparison:

Gross take off weight:
172: 2,450 pounds
T-51: 1,220 pounds

Horsepower:
172: 160 hp
T-51: 100 hp

Takeoff roll:
172: 942 feet
T-51: 300 feet

Cruise Speed:
172: 140 mph
T-51: 150 mph

Wing Loading:
172: 14.1 lb/ sq ft
T-51: 10.16 lb/ sq ft

Range at Cruise:
172: 667 miles
T-51: 710 miles

Service Ceiling:
172: 13,500 ft
T-51: 16,000 ft

Climb Rate:
172: 720 f/m
T-51: 1,200 f/m

Fuel Capacity:
172: 56 gal
T-51: 23 gal

Stall Speed:
172: 50~ MPH
T-51: 39 MPH

Wow, it's lightyears beyond the Cessna's performance, and at
just 30% of the price of a new 172. General Aviation keeps
getting screwed by the FAA, but Ultralights are a pretty fast
growing category as they're exempt from a lot of the chickenshit
the FAA loves to make up.

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:03am
by The Kernel
That planes seats one whereas the 172 is a four seater. Besides, you can make money leasing the 172 back to a flight club whereas you can't do the same with the T-51. My old man leases his plane back to a charter company which basically pays the bills for him to fly and maintain it for about 60 hours a month on a King Air B300. The numbers work even better for the smaller planes since the fuel and maintinence costs are much lower. If you bought one on a loan, you'd probably be able to pay for fuel, maintinence and a good chunk of the loan payments if you live in an area with a decent sized flying club.

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:04am
by Nathan F
Which is why, when I finally do get my license, I will NOT purchase a gen av aircraft. My money's going to the upstart companies that will offer me a good airplane at a reasonable cost. Popular Mechanics did a good article on some airplanes a few months back that fit into the category of the T-51. Lighter, smaller airplanes, all uner 50 grand.

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:06am
by EmperorMing
Sweet replica bird.

BTW, do you have any information on that company that is doing replicas of the ME 262? Seems you would be more interested in that one... :P :twisted:

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:07am
by MKSheppard
The Kernel wrote:That planes seats one whereas the 172 is a four seater.
Except it's 30% of the price, and gets better performance. General
Aviation is a worthless shithole that just sucks in the money from people
who have more money than brains.

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:11am
by MKSheppard
EmperorMing wrote: BTW, do you have any information on that company that is doing replicas of the ME 262? Seems you would be more interested in that one... :P :twisted:
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/

I'm more interested in the FW-190 replica.

http://www.flugwerk.de/new/fw190/fw190.shtm

Oooh yea, 1900 hp radials...fuck that pansy ass 160 hp Cessna
shit.
The FW 190 A8/N is sold exclusively as a kit. It is the only warbird, offered in this form, being able to be registered as an amateur-homebuilt kit-plane.
I've found my project for the next 20 years
:P

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:11am
by The Kernel
MKSheppard wrote: Except it's 30% of the price, and gets better performance. General
Aviation is a worthless shithole that just sucks in the money from people
who have more money than brains.
The cost isn't nearly as much of a factor because of the lease back option. Everyone I know leases their plane to a flying club to make it more affordable. Besides, most people buy planes to take their families/friends with them so one seaters aren't exactly a hot ticket right now.

I do agree with you though that GA needs to get their act together and upgrade the technology of their product line. They must realize that they can't keep milking a decades old design while charging outrageous prices for development costs that have been long recouped.

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:32am
by EmperorMing
MKSheppard wrote: SNIP
For some reason Shep, I keep thinking of you and Deathrace 2000, except with airplanes...

*Really bad visions there with Shep outfitting the kitplane with 20mm cannons on a strafing run...* :twisted:

Posted: 2004-01-07 12:37am
by TrailerParkJawa
Is that T-51 a kit plane or something?

Posted: 2004-01-07 01:58am
by Stormbringer
The Kernel wrote:The cost isn't nearly as much of a factor because of the lease back option. Everyone I know leases their plane to a flying club to make it more affordable. Besides, most people buy planes to take their families/friends with them so one seaters aren't exactly a hot ticket right now.
True, but I don't think that things marketed towards the same crowd. It's marketed to the filthy rich and warbird obsessed market. I personally know two owner-pilots of genuine P-51s and one that ones a refurbished Soviet jet trainer. It's for those sort of people not the Cessna crowd.

Posted: 2004-01-07 02:05am
by Sea Skimmer
EmperorMing wrote:Sweet replica bird.
Well its not really a replica, since its a fraction of the P-51's size with about a 20th of the engine power.


MKSheppard wrote: I'm more interested in the FW-190 replica.

http://www.flugwerk.de/new/fw190/fw190.shtm

Oooh yea, 1900 hp radials...fuck that pansy ass 160 hp Cessna
shit.
The FW 190 A8/N is sold exclusively as a kit. It is the only warbird, offered in this form, being able to be registered as an amateur-homebuilt kit-plane.
I've found my project for the next 20 years
:P
You can fool around with that all you want, I'll take one of the Yak-9's the Russians are now building from the original blueprints, no guns but they do have the mountings...

Posted: 2004-01-07 02:09am
by Sarevok
Shep you forgot the P-51s weapon systems. :D For a little more money anyone could arm that P-51 and shoot down Cessanas like flies.

Posted: 2004-01-07 02:27am
by The Kernel
Stormbringer wrote:
The Kernel wrote:The cost isn't nearly as much of a factor because of the lease back option. Everyone I know leases their plane to a flying club to make it more affordable. Besides, most people buy planes to take their families/friends with them so one seaters aren't exactly a hot ticket right now.
True, but I don't think that things marketed towards the same crowd. It's marketed to the filthy rich and warbird obsessed market. I personally know two owner-pilots of genuine P-51s and one that ones a refurbished Soviet jet trainer. It's for those sort of people not the Cessna crowd.
Very true, which is why I thought the comparison Shep made was a little funny. Sure, he has some valid points, but a comparison between a P-51 and a 172 is pusing it a little.

Posted: 2004-01-07 02:29am
by Rubberanvil
Sea Skimmer wrote:
EmperorMing wrote:Sweet replica bird.
Well its not really a replica, since its a fraction of the P-51's size with about a 20th of the engine power.
Iirc there's non-modded riding lawnmovers with bigger engines than that replica engine.

Posted: 2004-01-07 03:36am
by EmperorMing
evilcat4000 wrote:Shep you forgot the P-51s weapon systems. :D For a little more money anyone could arm that P-51 and shoot down Cessanas like flies.
If he gets his hands on the FW 190 replica... :twisted:

Posted: 2004-01-07 03:52am
by lukexcom
MKSheppard wrote:Except it's 30% of the price, and gets better performance. General
Aviation is a worthless shithole that just sucks in the money from people
who have more money than brains.
So me and thousands of other aviation students who cannot go via the airforce route for various reasons, and are stuck with the only other possible (civilian) way of becoming a commercial/airline pilot to achieve a life-long dream are people who have more money than brains?

General Aviation is the only civilian way for people like me to become pilots. It's the only civilian gateway to becoming a professional/commercial pilot for people like me who were not fortunate enough to be endowed with the required eyesight for Air Force UPT, like Wickedpilot.

And why pay $150,000 for a new Cessna? A 30-year old, fully equipped C172 with 160hp, instrument-certified, can be purchased for $30,000. A top-of-the-line Garmin or Bendix-King navigational stack can be added for a few extra thousand. You'll still be paying more or less the same for maintenance inspection costs. And if I had to choose, I'd rather take that than a light-sport aircraft which will limit me in certain areas anyhow (more on this below). Parts replacement will take out some cash over a long term period, as will a lower fuel efficiency, however, a C172 is a great general-purpose hauler, and this is something that a light-sport category aircraft isn't designed to do.

You are comparing two different categories of aircraft, each designed for different purposes. You take a general-purpose hauler workhorse like the C172 and compare it to a high-performance light aircraft designed for pleasure flights and joy rides. And then you call the C172 a pansy.

And it's the filthy rich bastards' fault at causing this anyways. During the 1970s, there were a lot of lazy ass pilot-wannabees (who should have been shot out of the genepool, IMO) who were rich enough to purchase a new 172 or whatever but were too lazy to take proper care of their aircraft, to front up the bills for the universally required annuals for this category of aircraft, to pay for the 100 hour inspections (a requirement depending on how the aircraft is used).

And so the inevitable happened. They started falling out of the sky. Although it's the least of what they deserved, the problem came from the many families that later sued the GA makers like Cessna for money. This brought companies like Cessna to their knees, forcing them to cancel manufacturing of their single-engine GA aircraft like the C172, or the C152, and choosing to focus on their largest twin engine pistons and their bizjets, who are bought by people who apparently still had enough brains to follow the Federal Aviation Regulations as far as maintenance went. Only in the late 1990s, after Congress passed a bill to revitalize GA and limit the liability of aircraft manufacturers, did various companies slowly wade their way in. Single Engine GA production slowly being revitalized, but it's still got a long ways to go before things get cheaper. But strides are slowly being made, if at least in the technology area, like the Cirrus SR-22, manufactured in Duluth, Minnesota.

Here's a guy that recently bought a Cirrus SR-22.

And a driver's license is not enough to fly light-sport category aircraft. It's only an alternative to a medical certificate showing you as medically fit to fly the light-sport category of aircraft, with a sport pilots license.

You still have to get the Sport Pilot's License. 20 hours of flight time, with somewhat cheaper rates, and you're still looking at $1500 at minimum compared to $3500 minimum for a part 61 program. Needless to say, it'll most likely take you more than the minimum to get the licenses, looking at the averages.

Plus, note the restrictions on the light-sport category aircraft, like the T-51, as listed of section IV part A of this article here.

So while aircraft like the T-51 are great new cheap airplanes, they're not for the people who need aircraft like Cessnas. Plus, this category of aircraft cannot be used as a gateway for getting the higher licenses, such as the Commercial Pilot's License, or a Multi-Engine rating. They're destined for a niche market which the manufacturers hope will expand significantly.

Now, what gets me curious is your claim that GA is a "shithole". Could you please elaborate on that?

Also, what is this "lot of chickenshit" that the FAA makes up?

Posted: 2004-01-07 04:44am
by Howedar
MKSheppard wrote:
The Kernel wrote:That planes seats one whereas the 172 is a four seater.
Except it's 30% of the price, and gets better performance. General
Aviation is a worthless shithole that just sucks in the money from people
who have more money than brains.
Better performance in some respects, but it has a tiny fraction of the payload. As for price, one needs to factor in the cost of hundreds if not thousands of man-hours of labor to complete one of these projects.

Posted: 2004-01-07 05:30am
by MKSheppard
The Kernel wrote: Very true, which is why I thought the comparison Shep made was a little funny. Sure, he has some valid points, but a comparison between a P-51 and a 172 is pusing it a little.
Uhm, you call a scale replica of the -51 powered by a 100 hp engine,
and weighs 1,200 pounds max take off, a P-51?

The real P-51 has a max take off weight of 12,100 lbs, and a 1,695 hp
engine.

Posted: 2004-01-07 08:53am
by The Kernel
MKSheppard wrote: Uhm, you call a scale replica of the -51 powered by a 100 hp engine,
and weighs 1,200 pounds max take off, a P-51?

The real P-51 has a max take off weight of 12,100 lbs, and a 1,695 hp
engine.
Yes I know it isn't a real P-51. But as replicas go, it does look the part pretty well.

Posted: 2004-01-07 09:12am
by Vympel
I'm certain the Russians are building Yak-3s from the original blueprints- which are sweeter acrobatic birds than the Yak-9- though the Yak-9U is pretty mean. All that's needed now is to find the original weapons ...

Posted: 2004-01-07 11:03am
by MKSheppard
Howedar wrote:Better performance in some respects, but it has a tiny fraction of the payload.
There are two seat ultralights that while they aren't as high performance
as the T-51, they offer a great price/performance ratio, unlike general
aviation.
As for price, one needs to factor in the cost of hundreds if not thousands of man-hours of labor to complete one of these projects.
Actually. More like 200 or less. the FAA recently released new regs on
Ultralights/kit planes that allows you to get 80% completed kits or
something, and actually counts painting the plane as "working on it"

Posted: 2004-01-07 06:55pm
by Howedar
I've helped a guy build a kitplane, and let me tell ya, you may save money but you put in a FUCKLOAD of time.

Posted: 2004-01-08 04:47am
by jenat-lai
And when you taxi past the Certified Private Pilot boys doing their preflight on their Cessna C172, they look at your "Experimental" plane which is registered as such, and go "Why bother?"

Then we go out and work on our real pilot liscence... :roll:


I like the C172. It's a feminine, docile aircraft, Though If I had the money I'd probably be doing my PPL on a low wing craft like a Piper Tomahawlk or Warrior or something.

Posted: 2004-01-08 09:27am
by Peregrin Toker
Isn't a P51 much harder to control than a Cessna?

Posted: 2004-01-08 12:04pm
by victorhadin
The lateral stability is minimal in comparison, for one. I would bet that it is more difficult to fly in, yes. Certainly more annoying to cruise in.

If I ever get the time and money to get a license, it will be a Rutan design for me. :)