Lies and the Lying Liers who tell them...

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2004-01-11 03:31am

This isn't neccersary the right room I know but, I was wondering however who has read Lies and the Lying Liers who tell them, and what are the general opinions of the book. As far as I can tell it is a scathing and quite brutal attack on the right of American Politics, and a reader walks away feeling sickened at the Republican party and it's 'Supporters' but I want to hear from those that might not agree with the book... I know this hasn't been formed well really I havn't presented a particular thing to get your teeth into... but We all know what happens when Moore is mentioned... but what of Al Franken?

I ask as I know I am a Left winger, I know my own bias, so before I go and say something from the book I'd love to hear from those that disagree with it...

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2004-01-11 11:27am

My brother is reading it and reads me excerpts. All I can really say is that it's very funny.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-11 11:43am

Franken isn't attacking right-wing politics in general, he's attacking the more hypocritical and hard liners among them.

As far as the truth about the book goes, Franken prides himself highly on the amount of research he puts into his books (the fact that he had a team of Harvard students doing fact checks helps) and I haven't seen any serious complaints about the statements he makes. This is a partisan book to be sure, but it is an honest and effective destruction of the right and a few of its more rabid players. Franken is absolutely ruthless against folks that well deserve this treatment like Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Jerry Fallwell, Rupert Murdoch, Bill O'Reily and of course Rush Limbaugh.

I enjoyed the book tremendously; especially for the humor that Franken infuses into the subject matter. I also like how he really only goes after the people who deserve it and doesn't destroy the more rational members of the right. Heck, there are two whole chapters on Queen Super-Bitch Coulter, it doesn't get much better then that!

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-01-11 12:47pm

I read the book and I thought it was much better than his Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot. In the earlier book he concentrated too much on making gratuitous insults over Rush's size and didn't do enough Fisking of Rush's many outlandish statements.

Lies is much more readable, entertaining, and on topic.

Of course, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly are pretty easy targets.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-11 02:35pm

He doesn't go after right wing politics, he goes after the hard line extremist liars in the right wing media. All and all its pretty damn funny (I loved the story about the trip to bob jones university).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-11 02:54pm

Now, we need to have Michael Moore shot and killed, at least Franken
DOES do his research....

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2004-01-11 03:48pm

It's not that Moore doesn't do his research, it's that he twists it in order to pander to gullible college students. Even though I'm a left wing, socialist pinko, I realize that he isn't good at being a documentor. I can see the point of some of his work, his interview with the brother of one of the Oklahoma Federal building bombers was intriguing when he went after their philosophy. But when he doesn't present his facts straight he doesn't help the left wing.
Though you've got to admit, Canadian Bacon was good.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-11 03:55pm

MKSheppard wrote:Now, we need to have Michael Moore shot and killed, at least Franken
DOES do his research....

The funny thing is, that if you read Moore's books, it's obvious that he's trying to be a lot like Franken, he just doesn't know how to make social/political commentary without resorting to sensationalism. The truth is that he is extremely good at what he does (getting people interested in the subject) he just doesn't get that coloring your facts and presenting misleading information doesn't help you in the long run.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong. After all, Fox News is the most popular news channel on television.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2004-01-11 09:10pm

Michael Moore did Canadian Bacon? Maybe he is worth something then.

Thank God for voices of sanity like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Ronnie Genne Wilson.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-11 11:25pm

Jeremy wrote:Michael Moore did Canadian Bacon? Maybe he is worth something then.

Thank God for voices of sanity like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Ronnie Genne Wilson.

You might want to read this book

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-01-11 11:39pm

I read Stupid White Men, and found it to be fairly interesting, and it did bring some stuff to light which I wasnt aware of, but when I read Dude, Where's my country, the man just came across like John Cleese in the Bicycle Repair Man/Kill the Commie Bastards sketch. Sure, he was ranting away nicely, which explains why the tabloids gave it glowing reports, but it was all, as you say, sensationalism, he presented a lovely list of things we should do as a global group and the USA should do, it was very pretty, clean water for all etc, very nice. But did he provide any helpful advice on how we should be doing this? Did he, bollocks.

Success it seems has given him a soapbox to stand on, and he seems to hae this habit of coming across like those preachers in Life of Brian. And who says Monty Python cannot be successfully applied as an analogy for almost any scenario?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-11 11:49pm

The Kernel wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Now, we need to have Michael Moore shot and killed, at least Franken
DOES do his research....
The funny thing is, that if you read Moore's books, it's obvious that he's trying to be a lot like Franken, he just doesn't know how to make social/political commentary without resorting to sensationalism. The truth is that he is extremely good at what he does (getting people interested in the subject) he just doesn't get that coloring your facts and presenting misleading information doesn't help you in the long run.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong. After all, Fox News is the most popular news channel on television.

Most popular cable news channel. Network news still has greater viewership.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-12 05:02am

Joe wrote: Most popular cable news channel. Network news still has greater viewership.

Excuse me? I've heard of network news shows, but I've never heard of a network news channel.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-01-12 09:41am

The_Lumberjack wrote:I read Stupid White Men, and found it to be fairly interesting, and it did bring some stuff to light which I wasnt aware of, but when I read Dude, Where's my country, the man just came across like John Cleese in the Bicycle Repair Man/Kill the Commie Bastards sketch. Sure, he was ranting away nicely, which explains why the tabloids gave it glowing reports, but it was all, as you say, sensationalism, he presented a lovely list of things we should do as a global group and the USA should do, it was very pretty, clean water for all etc, very nice. But did he provide any helpful advice on how we should be doing this? Did he, bollocks.

Success it seems has given him a soapbox to stand on, and he seems to hae this habit of coming across like those preachers in Life of Brian. And who says Monty Python cannot be successfully applied as an analogy for almost any scenario?

Stupid White Men has some inaccuracies in it according to Ben Fritz at Spinsanity.org

In it, readers are told that 10 million people left the welfare rolls during the '90s, brutally kicked off by Bill Clinton. He writes that five-sixths of the defense budget in 2001 went toward building a single type of plane and that the recent recession is nothing more than a fabrication by the wealthy to keep down the working classes. And readers who uncritically accept those "facts" -- along with a number of other egregious and sloppy distortions -- will be duped. Good satire also should be grounded in fact. Regrettably, Moore gets his facts wrong again and again and again, and a simple check of the sources he cites shows that lazy research is often to blame.

In Dude, Where's My Intellectual Honesty?, Bryan Keefer takes Moore to task yet again for not getting his facts straight.

Moore's penchant for conspiracy theories often leads him to stretch the facts or make laughable claims. Bashing the proposed Terrorist Information Awareness project, he writes that "There is usually very little in the way of an electronic or paper trail when it comes to terrorists. They lay low and pay cash. You and me, we leave trails everywhere - credit cards, cell phones, medical records, online; everything we do. Who is really being watched here?"(page 110, his italics) In Moore's fervor to indict the TIA system, he forgets about the credit cards used by the 9-11 hijackers, which were used to help retrace their steps.

Moore also repeats a well-debunked myth about Democratic presidential hopeful General Wesley Clark. According to Moore, "Clark has said that he received phone calls on Sept. 11 and in the weeks after from people at 'think tanks' and from people within the White House telling him to use his position as a pundit for CNN to 'connect' Sept. 11 to Saddam Hussein." (page 53) Moore cites a June 15, 2003 interview with Clark on NBC's "Meet the Press." Despite somewhat ambiguous phrasing in that interview, however, Clark, has subsequently been consistent in his claim that it was a member of a think tank who contacted him, not the White House, a fact buttressed by a recent report that identified the man who made the call. And Moore pluralizes the single call Clark refers to in the "Meet the Press" interview to "calls" - a claim Clark has never made.

In fact, Moore has his own section at Spinsanity. Granted, it's not quite as large as Limbaugh's, but it's an impressive collection all the same.

Interestingly enough, in Stupid White Men, Moore claims that he was told by his VW dealer regarding his New Beetle that 'If you don't start the car every day, it will die'

Here's the section from the book:

"Today I took my year old car, with less than 4000 miles on it, into the repair shop at the dealership where I bought it. Why? Seems that every other time I go to start the car, it won't start. I've replaced the starter, the battery, the fuse, the computer chip. But none of that has solved the problem.

When I told the service manager all this, he looked at me with a witheringly vacant stare. "Oh, these New Beetles- they don't start unless you drive them every day".

I thought for sure that I must have heard him wrong- after all, he was speaking perfect English. So I asked him again what the problem was.

"You see", he said, shaking his head in pity. "these VW's are run by a computer system, and if the computer hasn't read any activity- namely, you turning it on and driving it every day or so- then the computer assumes the battery is dead or something, and just shuts down the whole car. Is there any way you or someone you know can go down to the garage and start it once a day?"

I didn't know what to say. "If you don't start the car every day, it will die"= what is this, 1901? Am I being arrogant to expect that a car I spent $20,000 on is supposed to start whenever I put the key in the ignition? There aren't many sure things left in the world these days: the sun still sets in the west, the Pope still says Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, Strom Thurmond still comes back to life whenever there's an ex-First Lady around to grope. I would have thought I could cling to this one last article of faith: a brand new car always starts- period!

"Like 95% of the customers you've sold these New Beetles to," I said, "I live in Manhattan. Do you know anybody in Manhattan who drives their car every day?"

"Yes sir, we understand. Nobody in the city drives a car every day. They use the subways! I don't know why they even sell these cars in the city. It's really a shame. Have you tried writing to Volkswagen? Is there a kid on your block you can get to start it for a few minutes every day or so?"

So I'm stuck in a country where nothing works, everything sucks, and it's every man, woman, and state-tested child for themselves. Survival of the richest- no more lifeboats for you, or you, or you! There's got to be a better way.

After doing a little googling, the only references I found to a 'no start' condition on the New Beetle have to do with resetting the computer after the battery has died, not that you have to drive the car every day in order to keep the car from thinking that the battery has died.

I think Moore's exaggerating just a leetle here.....

One thing I don't understand at all is why he used the Volkswagen New Beetle as an example of being in a country 'where nothing works'.
IIRC, the New Beetle is made in Mexico by a German company. He's not complaining about his new Ford or Chevy that was made in Detroit.
The only thing his little screed on the New Beetle has done is to convince me that VW's are foreign made junk, not that Americans can't build quality cars.

My advice is to take anything Moore says with a large dose of salt.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-01-12 03:15pm

This site lays out all the factual errors in Franken's book, and there are a bunch....

http://www.frankenlies.com

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-12 03:37pm

theski wrote:This site lays out all the factual errors in Franken's book, and there are a bunch....

http://www.frankenlies.com

Most of these are either nitpicks or simple disagreements of interpretation, not outright errors.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-12 03:45pm

Glocksman, that Beetle story is such an obvious lie I can't believe anyone could possibly buy into it.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-12 05:00pm

The Kernel wrote: Most of these are either nitpicks or simple disagreements of interpretation, not outright errors.

Outright errors? LOLOLOLOLOL It was the PHILLIPINE POLICE that wasted the ass of those Al Quaida
bombers, not almighty Bill Clinton

You know, during Clintoon's 8 years, we had a shitload of attacks
on american targets each one growing in deadliness and intensity,
while on Bush's watch, we've only had one event...hmm, I know! It's
because Bush gave the CIA et al, a BLANK CHECK AND PARDONS
to LIQUIDATE THEM, even if it's illegal to do so.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-01-12 05:05pm

He is another reason why I can't stand politics.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-01-12 05:25pm

Joe wrote:Glocksman, that Beetle story is such an obvious lie I can't believe anyone could possibly buy into it.

This is Michael Moore we're talking about here.

Oh, and Shep.
I love your Victor Belenko avatar.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2004-01-13 07:40pm

I read through those complaints and I even wrote an e-mail in response to the Site creator. Of the errors on that site, 1 was to say that none of Team Franken where black.

A Lie obviously.

Another Error they claimed was the use of Satire. Saying Satire cannot be political. I kid you not. I wrote correcting 8 of the 17 Points on a basis of if what they wrote jumped out and hit me as bullshit, I would address it. I could correct 8 of the 17 Mistakes without having to do any research.

Then the comp ate the E-mail... so I will never send it now.