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So what was it? What was the most historically significant, decisive battle, ever? Obviously, there's no way for us to come to a conclusion and the criteria is almost impossible to really measure but I like talking about military history, so yeah.

I'll get a few of the obvious ones out of the way to start with. Hastings. Manzikerit. Ankara. Waterloo. Chalon (or possibly not).

Naval battles can be included too, but let's try not to bring up the Armada or Lepanto or that one enormous WWI/WW2 battle off the coat of Denmark that I can never, ever remember the name of.

Any one of the major battles of the Persian Wars.

Greece was the nursery of Western Civilization. It could not be destroyed by Persia.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Any one of the major battles of the Persian Wars.

Greece was the nursery of Western Civilization. It could not be destroyed by Persia.

I agree ... Thermopylea, Marathon, you could even mention Issus if you wanted too.

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Any one of the major battles of the Persian Wars.

Greece was the nursery of Western Civilization. It could not be destroyed by Persia.

I agree ... Thermopylea, Marathon, you could even mention Issus if you wanted too.

Might Salamis make a mention?

It did stop a ton of Persians landing somewhere.

What is the explanation generally given for these Greek victories against the usually numerically superior Persian forces throughout these wars (Keep in mind I have only a passing knowledge of these ancient wars pre Rome.)

Stravo wrote:What is the explanation generally given for these Greek victories against the usually numerically superior Persian forces throughout these wars (Keep in mind I have only a passing knowledge of these ancient wars pre Rome.)

For the naval stuff it was usually that the Athenian triremes were smaller and more maneuverable than the large bulky Perisan ships. This was more relevant at Salamis becasue it was a narrow strait, and the Persian ships had to basicalyl sit there and get prodded full of holes by triremes.

The Persian army, IIRC, lacked large amounts of heavy infantry, whereas Greek armies were almost all heavy infantry and the terrain usually favored the Greeks.

Also, Marathon was a surprise attack by the Greeks on Persians who were embarking on ships.

How about Charles the Hammer defeating the Muslims? That might have made Europe a very different place.

Also, I believe the Persians had some logistical difficulties.

But don't forget, they scored numerous victories at early stages in the first invasion. Crushed the Greek fleet at Lade, neutralized several major cities through clever diplomacy, and technically Thermpolyae and Artemisium are Persian victories, and the Athenian fleet attacking Memphis was soundly beaten.

Gandalf wrote:

Crown wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Any one of the major battles of the Persian Wars.

Greece was the nursery of Western Civilization. It could not be destroyed by Persia.

I agree ... Thermopylea, Marathon, you could even mention Issus if you wanted too.

Might Salamis make a mention?

It did stop a ton of Persians landing somewhere.

I would also mention the 10,000 escaping from Persia, which was instrumental in supplying maps that lead to Alexander's conquest.

I'd also like to toss up the victory at Alesia. Basically ensured Roman domination of Gaul and was an incredible feat of military engineering.

HemlockGrey wrote:So what was it? What was the most historically significant, decisive battle, ever? Obviously, there's no way for us to come to a conclusion and the criteria is almost impossible to really measure but I like talking about military history, so yeah.

I'll get a few of the obvious ones out of the way to start with. Hastings. Manzikerit. Ankara. Waterloo. Chalon (or possibly not).

God, you could go on and on with a full list of significant battles, and they'll each be significant in their own relevant way. If Greece had fallen to the Persians then Modern-day Western Society would be vastly different from what it is today.

Gettysburg, if won by the South, may have drawn out the Civil War a lot longer than it did.

Stanlingrad was as significant and decisive as it was bloody and atrocious.

Naval battles can be included too, but let's try not to bring up the Armada or Lepanto or that one enormous WWI/WW2 battle off the coat of Denmark that I can never, ever remember the name of.

The battle you're thinking about is Jutland, which was a tactical victory for the Germans but a strategic victory for the British. It was decisive only in the sense that the Germans never dared to send its fleet out again.

For naval battle, I think Midway was decisive. At least, it was the turning point of the war - it proved the Japanese could be stopped, even by smaller numbers, which of course wouldn't be a problem for the mass-production capability enjoyed by the US.

[edit] Forgot to mention, Midway was decisive because it was fought almost solely by carriers - a final indication of the Battleship's decline. So it was significant not only because the battle was won decisively by one side, but also because it ushered in a new direction of naval warfare, which the US were kings of (and still are).

HemlockGrey wrote:The Persian army, IIRC, lacked large amounts of heavy infantry, whereas Greek armies were almost all heavy infantry and the terrain usually favored the Greeks.

That is indeed true, the Greeks were almost exclusively Hoplites (heavy infantry), and in this battle especially.

Also, Marathon was a surprise attack by the Greeks on Persians who were embarking on ships.

No it wasn't, Miltiades and Callimachus, the two elected Generals of Athens and the heads of the 10,000 hoplites had several days of delay once they arrived at Marathon. They were debating the wisdom of attacking a force that outnumbered them 3 to 1, they were also waiting for support from other City-States. In the end the Persians decided the issue.

When the Persian's began displaying signs of an imminent attack, Miltiades persuaded his troops to take the initiative and the Athenians charged headlong into the Persians. The result?

6,400 dead Persians, to 192 dead Athenians.

Stravo wrote:What is the explanation generally given for these Greek victories against the usually numerically superior Persian forces throughout these wars (Keep in mind I have only a passing knowledge of these ancient wars pre Rome.)

Location, Location, Location!

Basically all the great victories for the Greeks, with the exception of Gaugamela, the Greeks would nullify the Persian's greater number by choosing choke points and defending them.

Also the Greeks on average had superior; equitpment and armour, training, disipline and to some extent leadership.

As well as greater flexibility and originality.

You should note that these traits have become succesfully the cornerstone of all western power houses throughout the ages.

I stand corrected; all I remember about Marathon itself I got from a history class years and years ago; the information was apparently incorrect.

Interestingly enough, Thermopylae, at the time of the battle, was little more than a dozen yards wide. This is a huge contributing factor as to why the Greeks were able to hold out for as long as they did.

EDIT: Didn't notice Crown's "location" post. Ties in rather nicely.

HemlockGrey wrote:I stand corrected; all I remember about Marathon itself I got from a history class years and years ago; the information was apparently incorrect.

Well I found it quite strange, after all you must have heard why we call long distnace running a marathon

Interestingly enough, Thermopylae, at the time of the battle, was little more than a dozen yards wide. This is a huge contributing factor as to why the Greeks were able to hold out for as long as they did.

EDIT: Didn't notice Crown's "location" post. Ties in rather nicely.

Thermopylae was an exagerated example (300 against gods-know-how-many), but Issus was sorta the same thing, as was Marathon, although this isn't quite true since the Persian army's 30,000 wasn't at all pined in, and the actual battle took place in a field with three 'sections'; the left and right wings, and the centre.

Interestingly the Persians actually broke through the centre, but by the time they did, the Greeks had totally collapsed the Persian's wings, and wheeled about and started carving them up.

Make no mistake, while Marathon was a choke point, the battle its self took place on an open field, not between the mountains, like Thermopylae.

Also here's an interesting statistic; Alexander's army, each man would average killing 5 enemies a minute!

Well I found it quite strange, after all you must have heard why we call long distnace running a marathon

From the same class; I was heard it was called that because a soldier ran all the way back to Athens, shouted out the news of the victory, and promptly died.

Also here's an interesting statistic; Alexander's army, each man would average killing 5 enemies a minute!

Gotta love that lancer-on-light infantry action.

The battle pf stalingrad in my opinion is the greatest battle of our times.

battle of the black sea. AKA Black Hawk Down. 18 american KIA for 1000 KIA somalias. 10000 WIA

HemlockGrey wrote:

Well I found it quite strange, after all you must have heard why we call long distnace running a marathon

From the same class; I was heard it was called that because a soldier ran all the way back to Athens, shouted out the news of the victory, and promptly died.

Try running all the way to Sparta to beg for help, then running back to Marathon to inform the General's that Sparta won't be coming, and then running to Athens to bring word of the victory and dieing.

*Shakes head in disbelief*

What do they teach you at school these days? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

Also interestingly the Athenians, after driving the Persians back onto their ships, issued a force march of all 10,000 men for 8 hours back to Athens to insure that the Persian's didn't try and sack Athens on their way back!

Also here's an interesting statistic; Alexander's army, each man would average killing 5 enemies a minute!

Gotta love that lancer-on-light infantry action.

Indeed!

Of our time? Well, given my spotty memory of recent history, I'd have to go with Pearl Harbor, the attack which dragged us fully into World War II. If it can be considered a battle.

Would the Battle of Britain count?

Agent Fisher wrote:battle of the black sea. AKA Black Hawk Down. 18 american KIA for 1000 KIA somalias. 10000 WIA

No disrespect to our forces in Somalia, but while that's impressive its hardly decisive.

The Guns of August... or more specifically The Battle of the Mons and the Marne

HemlockGrey wrote:
Naval battles can be included too, but let's try not to bring up the Armada or Lepanto or that one enormous WWI/WW2 battle off the coat of Denmark that I can never, ever remember the name of.

World War One, 1916, Jutland to the British and most of the world, Skagerrak to the Germans. But its not a real great battle when you look at it, most of the capital ships on both sides fired few shots and where never seriously engaged, and a fair number didn't fire at all.

Stofsk wrote: For naval battle, I think Midway was decisive. At least, it was the turning point of the war - it proved the Japanese could be stopped, even by smaller numbers, which of course wouldn't be a problem for the mass-production capability enjoyed by the US.

That production capacity meant Japan could have sunk the entire US Pacific fleet at midway for no losses of its own, and still been hopeleslly outgunned by early 1944. In hindsight the outcome of the battle didn't matter.

[edit] Forgot to mention, Midway was decisive because it was fought almost solely by carriers - a final indication of the Battleship's decline. So it was significant not only because the battle was won decisively by one side, but also because it ushered in a new direction of naval warfare, which the US were kings of (and still are).

It was decisive because it had carriers? So then what does that mean Tsushima (a battle fought using only surface ships with guns and torpedoes, in which almost the entire remaining Russian navy was annihilated) was? Sorry but Midway wasn't very decisive as such things go, a huge chunk of the IJN force was never even spotted let alone attacked or damaged by US forces. And it was not the first carrier on carrier battle. That was the Battle of the Coral Sea, which was also the first naval battle in which neither side's vessels ever spotted each other.