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Mary Sues in the media
Posted: 2004-02-03 05:33am
by Setzer
Who in your opinion counts as a Mary Sue? Fanfics do not count, only published books or filmed movies, stuff you'd have to pay for.
I'd nominate Steven Seagal's character in "On Deadly Ground."
25% of the movie he's beating the hell out of anyone who gets in his way,
70% People are wanking of about how tough he is,
and 5% is him actually killing people.
Posted: 2004-02-03 08:36pm
by Temjin
I'm sure Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan counts.
<SPOILER>
-He's saved the Royal Family not once, but TWICE in the same book.
-He's already rich in the first book, but is described as not caring about money.
-Even though he's just an analyst, he still goes on missions.
-All of his superiors think he a god dam genious.
-He eventually becomes the fucking PRESIDENT!
I think that qualifies, don't you?
Posted: 2004-02-03 08:42pm
by Montcalm
James Bond he`s the ultimate Mary Sue,he never get killed while every other 00 agents dies.
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:05pm
by Admiral Valdemar
Montcalm wrote:James Bond he`s the ultimate Mary Sue,he never get killed while every other 00 agents dies.
Yeah, but he's a great icon.
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:09pm
by Rogue 9
Master Chief. Destroying Halo? Killing that many enemy troops all by himself? Last surviving SPARTAN? Yeah.
I bet I can already tell you what Spanky's answer is going to be.
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:11pm
by Exonerate
Rogue 9 wrote:Master Chief. Destroying Halo? Killing that many enemy troops all by himself? Last surviving SPARTAN? Yeah.
I bet I can already tell you what Spanky's answer is going to be.
Shinji Ikari?
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:24pm
by Rogue 9
Read the screen name.
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:36pm
by Admiral Valdemar
Rogue 9 wrote:Read the screen name.
Wedge rocks though!
He's the Biggles of space!
EDIT: Or is it someone else... damn, I forget the order.
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:39pm
by Rogue 9
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Rogue 9 wrote:Read the screen name.
Wedge rocks though!
He's the Biggles of space!
No, Wedge was Rogue Leader. Corran Horn.
Posted: 2004-02-03 09:40pm
by Admiral Valdemar
Rogue 9 wrote:Admiral Valdemar wrote:Rogue 9 wrote:Read the screen name.
Wedge rocks though!
He's the Biggles of space!
No, Wedge was Rogue Leader. Corran Horn.
That's the one, but Wedge does it for me.
Posted: 2004-02-03 11:26pm
by RedImperator
Wesley Crusher was THE classic big-media Mary Sue. He passes the ultimate Mary Sue litmus test: all the other characters like him, but the audience hates him.
Posted: 2004-02-03 11:31pm
by Spanky The Dolphin
Scrappy Doo would qualify under that, as well.
Posted: 2004-02-03 11:31pm
by Admiral Valdemar
RedImperator wrote:Wesley Crusher was THE classic big-media Mary Sue. He passes the ultimate Mary Sue litmus test: all the other characters like him, but the audience hates him.
Hell yes, he reminds me of DJ Croft in that abominable NGE fanfic which would be fine if it didn't seem like the guy was also copying the author. Implanted version of your own personality are bad enough without them being a Mary Sue of ultimate perfection in every way.
Posted: 2004-02-04 12:59am
by RedImperator
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Scrappy Doo would qualify under that, as well.
Since I loathed and continue to loathe Scooby Doo, I'm not completely familiar with it, but I think Scrappy Doo is less of a Mary Sue and more of that other abomination, the Ratings Character. We all know the Ratings Character: ratings on a series start to slip, so what do they do? Introduce a new character, usually as "comic relief", who immediately usurps screen time from established characters, becomes central to every storyline, and in some cases completely takes over the show to the point that the former main characters are reduced to a supporting cast. The Ratings Character is almost always something cute, usually a kid or an animal. Ratings Characters are reviled immediately by fans of the show, who resent an interloper upsetting the dynamic of a series they've come to like, let alone a nauseatingly cute and painfully unfunny one.
There are similarities between Ratings Characters and Mary Sues. RC's and MS's both are liked immediately by the regular cast--MS's because a MS is the author's avatar and, hey, who wouldn't like the author, RCs because the character's whole point is to be liked by the audience and what better way to make the audience like him than to have all the audience's old favorites like him, right? Both end up central to the plot--after all, what can be more interesting than the author (Mary Sue), and if ratings still aren't down after introducing this Way Cool New Character that the focus groups loves, well, we must need more of the Way Cool New Character (Ratings Character). Both are reviled; RC's for the reasons outlined above, Mary Sues because nobody wants to experience someone else's ego trip.
That's why Scrappy Doo isn't a Mary Sue, but a similar but unrelated characer type. I didn't intend to pen this long screed, but there you go.
Posted: 2004-02-04 02:49am
by Stofsk
Montcalm wrote:James Bond he`s the ultimate Mary Sue,he never get killed while every other 00 agents dies.
Movie or book?
In the book, Bond is by no means perfect, and he fails assignments too. And he doesn't have the "untouchable" aura when he gets into a fight. In "Live and let die" he tracks down Mr. Big, get's caught, then gets tortured. While M may think highly of him, he also wouldn't hesitate to "terminate" James, as he was considering in "You only live twice" when 007 returned from another failed assignment. I wouldn't call him a Mary Sue in the books.
The movies are another matter, and I agree with you. Bond is fucking perfect, women fight over him, every fight he enters he leaves without a scar (even the ones he loses), most people think he's top shit, and he always beats the bad guy at the end.
Posted: 2004-02-04 05:37am
by InnerBrat
what the fuck's a Mary Sue, then?
Posted: 2004-02-04 05:52am
by Spanky The Dolphin
"Mary Sue" fanfiction is a type of story in which the fan author inserts an original character who is an idealized stand-in for the author into a piece of fan fiction. The term is not a compliment.
The Mary Sue character is either tougher, smarter, and cooler than the established characters but wins their admiration, or nicer, sweeter, and more charming than the established characters and wins their love. Either way, the setting's protagonists are upstaged by a perfect character. If the new character dies in the story, there is extensive grieving.
Most Mary Sues are stereotyped female characters. Some Mary Sues arrived without reason within the setting(another dimension), and invoke powers impossible in the canon. Although Mary Sues are plenty, Mary Sue Parodies were frequently written also, to mock the Mary Sues.
Posted: 2004-02-04 08:53am
by Peregrin Toker
I've never read any of Ayn Rand's books, but from what I know it seems like Kira Argunova from
We The Living most definately is a Mary-Sue. (
Source)
It's also possible that Conan the Barbarian is an "übermensch" version of Robert E. Howard, but I'm not sure as my knowledge about Howard is rather limited.
Edward Derby from H.P. Lovecraft's
The Thing On The Doorstep as well as the title character of
The Case Of Charles Dexter Ward are obvious self-insertions too, if not Mary-Sues.
Posted: 2004-02-04 05:41pm
by Glocksman
Clive Cussler in his Dirk Pitt books.
Posted: 2004-02-04 05:47pm
by Zac Naloen
Glocksman wrote:Clive Cussler in his Dirk Pitt books.
Very much agreed, cussler also puts himself in the books at key moments in order to save the day.
that guy has one hell of an ego.
Posted: 2004-02-04 05:49pm
by General Zod
Zac Naloen wrote:Glocksman wrote:Clive Cussler in his Dirk Pitt books.
Very much agreed, cussler also puts himself in the books at key moments in order to save the day.
that guy has one hell of an ego.
i just finished reading inca gold and have to agree there. major wankery, if you ask me.
Posted: 2004-02-04 08:38pm
by RadiO
I love the way Cussler's good guys deal with the chief villain when they get captured and imprisoned at his secret lair:
GOOD GUY: You know, your nation stinks. In my country we laugh at INSERT NATION HERE openly in the street; that's when we're not looking haughty at its repugnant moral standards and casual attitude to bestiality. America is better than you in every concievable way - including genetics, you bandy-legged fucker.
BAD GUY:Well, I should really do something villainous now, like (say) killing you where you stand. Or breaking your kneecaps with a cudgel. Or shooting you in the genitals. You know, me being an Evil UnAmerican Villain and all. But... Nah. I'll just stand here like a cabbage and take it, all pride and self-respect gone.
GOOD GUY: Yeah, yeah, 'cause I'm a good guy and I somehow have carte blanc to make suicidally belligerent speeches, at gunpoint, to mass-murderers. Let's get this chapter done 'n' dusted so we can see what Dirk Pitt's doing in that submersible with the tank tracks.
BAD GUY: I guess. Maybe I'll get you non-specifically roughed up a little, later, between chapters. I know I'm evil; I don't actually have to prove it to anybody, I just know.
GOOD GUY: Hey, if you did want to prove it, you could brutalise this woman here. Can't get more evil than that.
GOOD GAL: Shut the fuck up, Brett!
BAD GUY: Nope, see that's still to come. On page 677 she's going to get beaten up by one of my stereotypical thugs, stripped naked, hogtied, menanced at knifepoint and subjected to the initial stages of a sex murder - and then Pitt will come in and save her by slitting my guy's throat open back to the spine with his dive knife. Then he's gonna stamp the thug's agonised face flat as he dies by way of catharsis. Can't say I don't know my target audience.
TARGET AUDIENCE: Yeah, man! Ohshitshitshit, I mean... You evil bastard!
GOOD GUY: You evil bastard!
BAD GUY: Hey, don't be too judgemental; look at us two now. When I can't summon up the dander to horribly maim some loudmouthed schmuck who's utterly at my mercy, how can I possibly pose any kind of dramatic threat? You should be pitying me, I make Skeletor look like Iosef Stalin. And I have a tiny dick! Don't pretend you didn't already know that, it's friggin' obvious from everything I do in this book.
Posted: 2004-02-04 11:20pm
by The Dark
Peregrin Toker wrote:It's also possible that Conan the Barbarian is an "übermensch" version of Robert E. Howard, but I'm not sure as my knowledge about Howard is rather limited.
I'm not so sure about Conan. He is very powerful, but he also ends up getting in bad situations a lot. He's highly superstitious, has had at least two lovers killed (that I can recall, though one might not have been in a Howard book), and ends up always losing his money (and often his weapons as well). He seems to do his best because people assume he's dumber than average, when he's really just a touch above average, which makes him appear brilliant only because he's underestimated as a muscle-headed barbarian.
Colonel Keane from Forstchen's
The Lost Regiment is a Mary Sue. Actually, every main character is. The "old sargeant" gets captured by a race that eats humans, and he's the one person they keep as a pet
. The Irish sidekick gets gutshot, and the doctor figures out that carbolic acid will allow him to sterilize the wound to keep it from festering
. It's pathetic. I'm just reading through the series because I like the slightly more minor characters.
Posted: 2004-02-05 04:05am
by EmperorMing
Casca, the Eternal Mercenary.
Of course, he is immortal.
Posted: 2004-02-05 07:12am
by Zac Naloen
Darth_Zod wrote:Zac Naloen wrote:Glocksman wrote:Clive Cussler in his Dirk Pitt books.
Very much agreed, cussler also puts himself in the books at key moments in order to save the day.
that guy has one hell of an ego.
i just finished reading inca gold and have to agree there. major wankery, if you ask me.
i ahve to admit i do actually enjoy the stories, just that the main character is the most blatant mary sue ever in hte history of mary sues