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So, me and the wife decided to watch the movie tonight. This movie either makes me major sad (I cry like a bitch) or really pissed off. For reference, I was in the Corps. when this happened.

I hate the Army for this cluster fuck. Who the fuck pulls a raid with out CAS or CIF? MY god, I was a LCPL at the time and I would have pulled major hell if I was told I was going on this mission with out air support or direct support of any kind. Did I mention I hate the Army for this?

The Corps. has some major pride when it comes to unit integerty, but we don't go so far as to not have support on missions. Why didn't they have air support or artillery on call. That goes against any mission planning.


The genneral, I forget his name, resigned but he should have been charged in military court or federal court.

Arg. I love the fact that I own this movie, but I lament the event every time I watch it. I wonder every time I see it, if the Army would have done this when the IMEF was in town, if it would have been different.

Before any one asks, I stood on ready to go, they choose another BN instead. I lost many of friends. Many people I know came back.

It amazes me that we consider this, in the states, a loss.

30 views huh, with out going into political view, does shit like this piss you off.

Weather you agree with Clinton's withdraw, depending on your countries particular political stance, what is reminisent of this, does it piss you off?

I think the best point about Somolia was the Saturday Night Live scathing Clinton before he even came into office about how out of his depth he was on this. This incident carried into the rest of his two terms as president, it was why he was always the "Remote control" military action, perfering to send missiles, and drones into harms way, rather then humans, he didn't want another Somolia on his presidential watch. like JFK inhaireting the Bay of Pigs, this was a mission that was set up by the previous administration, and the incomming administration fucked it up due to not knowing what was going on, trying to controlthings, and then being afraid to commit. (very simular, Bay of Pigs was supposed to have air cover too)

The Yosemite Bear wrote:I think the best point about Somolia was the Saturday Night Live scathing Clinton before he even came into office about how out of his depth he was on this. This incident carried into the rest of his two terms as president, it was why he was always the "Remote control" military action, perfering to send missiles, and drones into harms way, rather then humans, he didn't want another Somolia on his presidential watch. like JFK inhaireting the Bay of Pigs, this was a mission that was set up by the previous administration, and the incomming administration fucked it up due to not knowing what was going on, trying to controlthings, and then being afraid to commit. (very simular, Bay of Pigs was supposed to have air cover too)

Good comparison!

I couldn't get into the military, my vision is too fucked up and I have a history of mild Epileptic problems, but I am a student of history in general, these paralels tend to crop up more often then we choose to remember. Hell I am halfway temped to point out the simularities between Rupert Murdoch and William Randolf Hearst.

Knife wrote: I hate the Army for this cluster fuck. Who the fuck pulls a raid with out CAS or CIF? MY god, I was a LCPL at the time and I would have pulled major hell if I was told I was going on this mission with out air support or direct support of any kind. Did I mention I hate the Army for this?

Don't hate the regular Army, just hate the offending bastards who thought of that brilliant idea in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, even the Marines would have done the same type of mission without any support if they're ordered to. Something about being busted on charges for insubordination, and disobeying a direct order if the Marines refused.

The Corps. has some major pride when it comes to unit integerty, but we don't go so far as to not have support on missions. Why didn't they have air support or artillery on call. That goes against any mission planning.

The higher ups fear collateral damage and creating an international scene

Knife wrote: 30 views huh, with out going into political view, does shit like this piss you off.

Weather you agree with Clinton's withdraw, depending on your countries particular political stance, what is reminisent of this, does it piss you off?

It pisses me off.

I was in the Navy at the time and had been within spitting distance of Mogadishu when we first sent forces there. From the mast of a carrier it looked like a big dusty hole. Most of the buildings did not have roofs. There were just a bunch of walls, and lots of dust. It was difficult to understand what we were doing there and considering the forces (a CVBG and an amphibious BG) we had available when I was there it was madening that we'd let some of our people get killed because someone went PC and sent them out without adequate support.

It pissed me off when it happened and it pisses me off now. I have not seen the movie and have no plans to ever see it. It was one of the major reason there was no fucking way I was going to vote for Gore. Not after the way the Clinton administration treated the military, and the disrespect that some of his people felt/showed for the military.

Knife wrote:I hate the Army for this cluster fuck. Who the fuck pulls a raid with out CAS or CIF? MY god, I was a LCPL at the time and I would have pulled major hell if I was told I was going on this mission with out air support or direct support of any kind. Did I mention I hate the Army for this?

I think the hate should be directed more to the policy makers, since they inserted strict rules of engagement for the situation. The whole "feel" can be summed up in the food relief scene, where the bad guys shoot innocents, while the soldiers can't do anything because they weren't fired upon.

And of course, the military planners, who relied on only two sources of information, including a very dubious informant, and hoped on a quick snatch-and-grab operation, right in the middle of Indian country.

It amazes me that we consider this, in the states, a loss.

It was a loss, wasn't it? US forces pulled out wihtout achieving their objectives (the capture of that guy that I forget the name), lost 12(?) soldiers, several helicopters, and as usual, a major political setback.

The battle was a military victory. Yes we lost 18 soldiers and two choppers, but they were all alone in the middle of a hostile city for God's sakes. They lasted all afternoon and then all night. In the process at the absolute minimum 500 somalis died. Its a case of winning the battle but losing the war. Someone pissed their pants and decided to pull out.

I think, beyond everything else, that the point that got to me most was the utter disregard for simple rules of warfare like...control the high ground. The foot patrols moving to the crash site coudl easily have cleared a building and moved along the rooftops which would have protected them from a LOT of shit and given them an advantage in confronting the Somalis at the crash site. Obviously light armor or some kind of support would have made a shite load of difference but there were just some huge command fuck ups (like deciding to use a team already utilized for the chopper rescue mission when you could have dropped a fresh team into place from your base camp in less time and used the team on the ground as security on the convoy back over...a convoy that would have had time to plan its route and not get lost).

Knife wrote:The genneral, I forget his name, resigned but he should have been charged in military court or federal court.

What the hell for? That General wanted APC and AC-130 support from the start the Whitehouse was denying such levels of support. The General was put under policitical limitations and told to do the mission anyway. He did the best that he could with the resources available.

Alyeska wrote:

Knife wrote:The genneral, I forget his name, resigned but he should have been charged in military court or federal court.

What the hell for? That General wanted APC and AC-130 support from the start the Whitehouse was denying such levels of support. The General was put under policitical limitations and told to do the mission anyway. He did the best that he could with the resources available.

To be fair, most sources credit Colin Powell with the not-so-brilliant idea that Spectres and APC's wouldn't be needed for the operation, although I'm still not sure if APC's would've helped much.

If I remember right they also wanted Mk. 19s for the Humvees.

Alyeska wrote:
What the hell for? That General wanted APC and AC-130 support from the start the Whitehouse was denying such levels of support. The General was put under policitical limitations and told to do the mission anyway. He did the best that he could with the resources available.

10th Mountain Division requested APC's; the Special Forces under General Garrison never did and thought that they'd be slowed down by armor. There strategy was to go in fast and light and get out fast, which had worked very well several times previously, and thus avoid a large fight, if it came to that then a lot of Americans would end up killed and wounded no matter what, armored vehicles are not known for moving quickly through cities.

SylasGaunt wrote:If I remember right they also wanted Mk. 19s for the Humvees.

No, they had plenty of Mk.19 grenade launchers and they where used to considerable effect, nothing can really beat an automatic grenade launcher for anti ambush work, unless you happen to have a tank firing canister or beehive handy. But those tend to be a bit larger and less portable.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Alyeska wrote:
What the hell for? That General wanted APC and AC-130 support from the start the Whitehouse was denying such levels of support. The General was put under policitical limitations and told to do the mission anyway. He did the best that he could with the resources available.

10th Mountain Division requested APC's; the Special Forces under General Garrison never did and thought that they'd be slowed down by armor. There strategy was to go in fast and light and get out fast, which had worked very well several times previously, and thus avoid a large fight, if it came to that then a lot of Americans would end up killed and wounded no matter what, armored vehicles are not known for moving quickly through cities.

At the least he should have had a secondary force, slightly heavier, ready to role in case shit went bad. I understand the idea of a quick and light raid, but you don't do it with out the hammer ready to bail your ass out.

One of the biggest mistakes of that operation was the decision to pull it off during the time they did. Intelligene already knew that most fighters were high on opium during the time the operation took place. Would have been far better to have executed the operation around 0200, when most of those on dope were on the down-slide and much of the town was asleep. Therefore, it was also an intelligence failure...

Jegs of course they knew it would have been better to go at 0200. But the targets wouldn't have stayed there long enough. They had a chance to capture two of Aidids Lt.s. They went when they had the chance.