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In the military it is your duty to obey orders. You get court marshaled if you don't follow these orders right? Maybe even executed if it is time of war right? I am not sure.


My question is: A What do you do when you know your entire government is wrong (nazis) and you are forced to do something you know is morally wrong lest you pay the consequences for insuboridnation? You can't escape, and you can really do nothing about it by yourself against the government?

How can you be held responsible for following orders against which you can do nothing but die or go to prison?

This issue always confused me, for all I ever hear from the base near me is "subordination, orders, and duty."

i think this has been covered before. i'll try and dredge up what i remember:

basically, when a soldier is given orders he must follow them to the best of his ability except when those orders are clearly illegal. when they're illegal it's actually the soldier's duty to disobey them and do the right thing. using the excuse 'i was just following orders' is no longer valid in courts of law.


as far as the entire government being corrupt. . . .well, i think it's best for someone with more knowledge in that area ta handle it.

The Nurenberg Trials established that a soldier is required to disobey any illegal orders, or he can be held responsible. I don't know about the exact definition of "illegal", but it does include stuff like genocide, intentional civilian massacre, execution of prisoners, etc.

This means you are fucked one way or another.

You obey the wrong orders, you get punished for war crimes.

You don't obey, you are court martialed and screwed too.

I think it depends on the grade of morality and conscience of people what would they choose.

if the orders are clearly illegal and you refuse to obey, it will be the officer giving the orders that gets court martialed, not yourself. however proving that he gave them would be rather difficult, unless he tries pressing charges. which he probably wouldn't do, if he were smart, as the orders would be clearly illegal.

Darth_Zod wrote:if the orders are clearly illegal and you refuse to obey, it will be the officer giving the orders that gets court martialed, not yourself. however proving that he gave them would be rather difficult, unless he tries pressing charges. which he probably wouldn't do, if he were smart, as the orders would be clearly illegal.

I was refering in the context of the first post: a fucked up governement, Nazi style. During the war there were cases of people geting shot because they refused to be part of execution squads.

EDIT: fixed typo.

I was refering in the context of the first post: a fucked up governement, Nazi style. During the war there were cases of people geting shot because they refused to be part of execution squads.

1 I know, I would rather do the illegal stuff than die myself, wouldn't you? It just seems more logical to punish the officers in charge, not the grunts who cannot do anything about it.

2 It seems very "zero-tolerance" and not very logical. Its like they expect people to sacrifice themselves like guinea pigs.


Do this.
No
Bam, you dead. Next?

This is a problem that must be addressed long before it actually happens, by training soldiers and officers in a moral code of behavior that precludes them from harming the innocent, and requires them to actively oppose anyone who orders them to do so. Frankly, I don't take obeying orders as an excuse from anyone, regardless of rank.

If I were a soldier in Nazi Germany ordered to kill civilians, and knew that if I disobeyed orders I'd be shot, I would open fire on whoever gave the order and fight for survival as long as possible before being put down. Maybe my disobedience would encourage others to disobey as well. Were there any cases such as I described?

Soldiers are only required to obey lawful orders. Though if your struck in the service of Nazi's or the like your not to likely to get the benefit of a fair or any trial before being executed.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:If I were a soldier in Nazi Germany ordered to kill civilians, and knew that if I disobeyed orders I'd be shot, I would open fire on whoever gave the order and fight for survival as long as possible before being put down. Maybe my disobedience would encourage others to disobey as well. Were there any cases such as I described?

Probably, but I've never heard of any. The thing is that if you where a Nazi solider you'd have been indoctrinated to be loyal to the Führer for many years and would be looking at shooting many people who have been your friends for just as long. That makes doing what you describe far less easy mentally.

There were german soldiers who disobeyed "unlawfull orders" during the campaigns in the east.
(orders connected with collective punishment, genocide). Surprisingly enough most of them were not punished.

Thinkmarble wrote:There were german soldiers who disobeyed "unlawfull orders" during the campaigns in the east.
(orders connected with collective punishment, genocide). Surprisingly enough most of them were not punished.

I think that happened mostly because their direct superiors didn't agreed with those orders too.

I don't know how accurate and represantative for the entire picture are Sven Hassel's books, but most of my impressions upon the subject were influenced by them.

either that or hide a bomb under the confrence table....

The Yosemite Bear wrote:either that or hide a bomb under the confrence table....

it won´t work. the führer in charge is going to leave early that day...

Speaking of Illegal Orders, the Native American Army Grunt/medic who told Lt. Calley to fuck off at Mai Lei lives in Yosemite area. BTW does anyone know if Calley is still alive?

---edit---
checked fixed name

yeah, he got pardonded...

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Speaking of Illegal Orders, the Native American Army Grunt/medic who told Lt. Calley to fuck off at Mai Lei lives in Yosemite area. BTW does anyone know if Calley is still alive?

I haven't heard this story; what took place at Mai Lei?

Stofsk wrote:

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Speaking of Illegal Orders, the Native American Army Grunt/medic who told Lt. Calley to fuck off at Mai Lei lives in Yosemite area. BTW does anyone know if Calley is still alive?

I haven't heard this story; what took place at Mai Lei?

Seconded.

For myself, I would rather die than participate in the Holocaust.

Cornelius wrote:
My question is: A What do you do when you know your entire government is wrong (nazis) and you are forced to do something you know is morally wrong lest you pay the consequences for insuboridnation?

How does the average soldier know the Nazi government is wrong?

I'm not talking about Rommel or someone who isn't you're indoctrinated grunt...seriously if say the US Army for years has been disposing of people this way, and it's put into a light that is favorable and in fact looks like it's for a just cause how do you the average grunt know it's wrong?

Yes, if you can resist an illegal order...but the murkiness comes from what is and isn't illegal within your government and army.

In germany the case is quite simple, as international law is binding law (article 25 basic law), and wars of agression are explicitly banned (article 26 basic law).
In fact with the participation in the Kosovo war the german federal government did broke the basic law.
He was not persecuted because the federal persecutor responsible for the this kind of things simply decided on his own that one can make exceptions if one really wants to ( okay, it was for "humatarian reasons"). If Schröder would have been charged with starting a war of agression he would have been sent into prison for atleast 15 years.

All that proves is that laws, no matter how well-intentioned, are a bunch of hot air if you don't enforce them. As for My Lai, it was a hamlet in South Vietnam, in the DMZ, whose people were killed indiscriminately by US soldiers led by a Lieutenant named William Calley. Calley did, I believe, a few years in prison for it, and none of his men faced any punishment to speak of for their actions. Frankly, I'd have hanged the lot of them for treason, because US troops slaughtering civilians gives a form of aid and comfort to an enemy by bringing the US military into disrepute. My concern about attacking civilians is not so much that it is illegal, since any set of laws can be changed to make anything legal, but that it is immoral (attacking people who either didn't attack you, can't defend themselves, or both) and counterproductive. Every resource spent attacking a city is one not used to attack the enemy military, who are the ones trying to kill you. Cities can produce all the materials they like, but it's all junk without a military to use them.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Stofsk wrote:

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Speaking of Illegal Orders, the Native American Army Grunt/medic who told Lt. Calley to fuck off at Mai Lei lives in Yosemite area. BTW does anyone know if Calley is still alive?

I haven't heard this story; what took place at Mai Lei?

Seconded.

For myself, I would rather die than participate in the Holocaust.

The infamous massacure of a whole village in Vietnam.
The army platoon responsible was found guilty of over 20 counts of murder of Women and Children. Along with a number of rapes. Five soldiers disobeyed Calley's orders to kill everyone and burn the whole village.

Basically the platoon's medic lives in Yosemite, he was one of the five who refused to fire on anyone during the incident/massacure. And later testified in Calley's court marital. His other bit, is that because hollywood couldn't find an american indian actor to play him in the movie five years later, they hired him to play himself.