For real?

[haas mark]

If you talk to someone via Internet (IM, email, mesaage boards, communities, etc.), is your relationship with that person "real"? I had this discussion with a friend sometime back, and all he said was that it was false, and that the communication was false. I took this as a copout and his only response was that unless you have met the other person in person, then there is no reality to it. I don't understand this, and was wondering other people's opinions. I think that if you have at least chatted with another person via any sort of communication, then the communication is valid, even if you have not met face to face.

Opinions, sleep-deppers?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

If you talk to someone via Internet (IM, email, mesaage boards, communities, etc.), is your relationship with that person "real"? I had this discussion with a friend sometime back, and all he said was that it was false, and that the communication was false. I took this as a copout and his only response was that unless you have met the other person in person, then there is no reality to it. I don't understand this, and was wondering other people's opinions. I think that if you have at least chatted with another person via any sort of communication, then the communication is valid, even if you have not met face to face.

Opinions, sleep-deppers?

A:) Define 'relationship.'

All relationships are real. Provided you define "relationship" as being an interaction with another person. Though your friend has a point. Any interaction online tends to lack a certain 'reality'. Sure you can get along with this person online, but really it's all in your head . . . there are a lot of barriers that don't exist online that exist IRL. Only if you can interact with the person IRL do you know if you actually share anything meaningful or not. And I mean this for all types of relationships.

[Dalton]

I'll have to totally disagree with that assessment. I have several very good friends on ASVS, and I actually met several of them back in May (Rob Wilson, Greg Burnett, Lee Atkins, Phil Skayhan), and I found them to be just as amiable and friendly as I did on the internet.

[Rathark]

It depends on the circumstance. There are circumstances - perhaps rare and extreme circumstances - where an internet friendship can be VERY real. I won't go into detail for personal reasons. However, if you are genuinely making a difference to someone's life, through advice or other factors, then that relationship is real.

[Admiral Drason]

I think the relation ship can be real. But then again it might be some weird sexual predator.

[Mr Bean]

It all depends, I have met a person or two on this board though they probably did not recongise(Pretty easy not to most of the time) me in the time. I won't say who as that would make it too easy and spoil the intended effect but I digress...

A relation-ship is a relation ship no matter what medium its conducted in

Be it written, spoken or visual

[Nick]

All relationships are real - only the nature of the relationship changes. If you interact with another person, you create a relationship with them - even if it is just a transitory, comparatively insignificant one.

Internet relationships are real - and their nature depends, in many ways, on how long the relationship has been going on, and how honest the two parties are with each other.

In fact, the Internet often lets you find out things that people rarely discuss in real life - because a slow communication mechanism like BBS or email lets people talk about things that require too much thought (or are likely to be too sensitve) for an everyday conversation.

A lot of the things I know about people on the 'net (personal philosophies and the like), I barely know about my own family - because face-to-face discussions are likely to get overwhelmed by the emotions which may be involved.

So the relationships are real. We conclude that there is an intelligent person on the other end of the chat session for the same reason we conclude that there is an intelligent person inside the human-shaped piece of flesh standing in front of us - because we can have a conversation with them.

(This, of course, is the basis of the Turing test for developing artificial intelligence)

[kojikun]

Oh the relationships are real. Very much so. They're just as real as long distance relationships where the only contact is phone or post. They're just as real as long distance relationships with very little if any contact.

People emote and express themselves through the internet in ways they robably wouldn't in real life. This makes the relationshi MORE real because people are willing to /NOT BE FAKE/.

[Sea Skimmer]

They can be very real. However they also can be quite fake and based totally on lies, just like any other relationship.

[Nick]

They can be very real. However they also can be quite fake and based totally on lies, just like any other relationship.

Skimmer has a good point here - there can be fake relationships in real life as well as on the Internet. After all, it is the ability to create fake relationships that lets con artists make a living.

The thing that can happen with the Internet is that a lot of our clues to deceit (facial expressions, body language, tone of voice) aren't available. All we can go on is the self consistency of what people say - and maintaining a consistent facade over an extended period of time is extremely taxing.

As with normal life, the question of granting your trust to someone is always a risk - by trusting them, you are giving them a certain power to hurt you (otherwise, you aren' t trusting them with anything). It is just a matter of not being naive in terms of who you choose to trust.

[Guest]

Net relationships can be a pain in the ass, you get all the painful moments of a relationship without the fun stuff but if you meet the right person it is all worth it. I met my third fiance over the internet and even though we split up i have some very nice memories and made a good fried outta it.

[Kelly Antilles]

Internet relationships for me have mostly been bad. They're great until I meet them in person. Out of everyone I've met in person, I am only still in touch with about 5 or 6. You have to remember that I've been on the net for 6 or so years. The reason for most of them going bad have been because they lied to me. They lied about our friendship or something else. *sigh*

[Darth Wong]

Internet relationships for me have mostly been bad. They're great until I meet them in person. Out of everyone I've met in person, I am only still in touch with about 5 or 6. You have to remember that I've been on the net for 6 or so years. The reason for most of them going bad have been because they lied to me. They lied about our friendship or something else. *sigh*

It's easier to lie about a wider range of subjects when people can't see your face or the way you live. That's not to say it's inevitable, but I think it happens more than it does off-line.

[Kuja]

As long as you're honest about yourself, like in real life, it's real.

[Kelly Antilles]

Internet relationships for me have mostly been bad. They're great until I meet them in person. Out of everyone I've met in person, I am only still in touch with about 5 or 6. You have to remember that I've been on the net for 6 or so years. The reason for most of them going bad have been because they lied to me. They lied about our friendship or something else. *sigh*

It's easier to lie about a wider range of subjects when people can't see your face or the way you live. That's not to say it's inevitable, but I think it happens more than it does off-line.

I'm a very open person. Lying is very insulting to me. That's my biggest problem with the internet. You can't tell if someone is lying. I just assume everyone is going to be open and not lie. That's a fault of mine.

[Darth Wong]

I'm a very open person. Lying is very insulting to me. That's my biggest problem with the internet. You can't tell if someone is lying. I just assume everyone is going to be open and not lie. That's a fault of mine.

I hate dishonesty too, but I'm a cynic, so I expect to encounter it. As the old saying goes, the cynic is right 90% of the time, and pleasantly surprised the other 10%.

[Kelly Antilles]

OH, I am quite the cynic as well. I'm a Scorpio. I'm also stubborn and easily bitchy. The thing is, when someone lies to me like that, it takes a LOT to regain my trust. I have forgiven people before and they've turned around and lied to me again. That is just rude.

[Kuja]

That's more than rude, that's totally ucalled for.

[Kelly Antilles]

That's more than rude, that's totally ucalled for.

Yeah, now you see the kind of people I attract.

[Kuja]

That old "moths to a flame" analogy has been popping up in my head more and more these days........

[haas mark]

They can be very real. However they also can be quite fake and based totally on lies, just like any other relationship.

This si the same point my friend made (and Kelly going along with it). But my counter was that when I IM people (mostly via AIM), it is very hard to lie on the spot...I mean, seriously, when you chat with someone, and responses are within 15 seconds, you can't really say that they're lying. My friend said, "Well, if they're as good a writer or actor as I am..." Bullshit, I said, because he is a VERY good writer and a talented actor..now how many of those are you REALLY going to find on the Net? Seriously...I literally CAN NOT bring myself to lie about things on the Net....but that's just me.

[Nick]

This si the same point my friend made (and Kelly going along with it). But my counter was that when I IM people (mostly via AIM), it is very hard to lie on the spot...I mean, seriously, when you chat with someone, and responses are within 15 seconds, you can't really say that they're lying. My friend said, "Well, if they're as good a writer or actor as I am..."

The point your friend needs to understand is that this does not come from any fundamental difference in the nature of the relationship - it merely comes from the fact that it is easier to lie on the Internet, purely because there is less information provided beyond the words used.

To lie about yourself on a web journal (or other web page) requires only the ability to create a convincing character. Anyone able to write decent characters in fiction would be able to lie in this way - they can, given time, create and empathise with a fictional character well enough to write from their point if view.

To lie about yourself in e-mail or on a discussion board or newsgroup is not much harder - again, these are not real-time communication mediums, so you have plenty of time to construct a response consistent with the fictional character.

To lie convincingly in chat forums, IRC, or IM conversations is much more difficult, as this requires you to come up with 'in-character' responses right on the spot. However, it is still quite achievable for many people.

To lie convincingly in a phone conversation is more difficult again. Firstly, the required speed of response increases again (even beyond that expected of IM - where taking 30 seconds or more can easily be covered by 'sorry, I'm doing something else at the same time'). Secondly, tone of voice comes into play for the first time. It is one thing to express an emotion through appropriate use of smileys and words - it is a different skill entirely to do so with your voice.

To lie convincingly, face-to-face is the most difficult prospect of all. as now, the full resources of our sense are brought to bear on the liar. Expression, body language, tone of voice, their actual words - a mistake in any of these will create suspicion, and investigation may lead to the entire lie collapsing in on itself.

With each step up this list, the number of people with the requisite skills to carry out deception goes down - but there are always some of them around. So, prior to granting trust, we need to be confident that our trust is justifiable - that the information we have available indicates that granting our trust is a reasonable bet.

Sometimes, we're going to get it wrong. We're going to trust people we shouldn't - perhaps because they have deliberately lied to us, or perhaps simply because we have overestimated their trustworthiness. If it was a simple misjudgement (or perhaps even unrealistic expectations) on our part - then there is nothing to do except chalk it up as a learning experience, and move on - this time with a better idea of that person's limitations.

If it was a deliberate lie, then we have to question the motives behind the lie - why was it that they felt it necessary to lie? Most especially, was the fact that they hurt us deliberate, or an unintentional side effect? If we can't find that out, then we have no grounds for determining their future trustworthiness.

So, what if someone has lied to us, but then convinced us they had a good (or at least understandable) reason? Well, that's an impossible question to answer in general - but I will suggest one handy rule of thumb:
Once is an accident (or aberration)
Twice is coincidence
Three times is enemy action.

[weemadando]

This kind of came up in a tutorial the other day where I was doing a talk on Cyberdemocracy (trust me, its relevant). Anyhow, someone brought up the whole thing about hiding true identity etc on the net.

I simply said that with about half an hour and a "handle" to work with you can easily get a home address and phone number. Its not that hard. People in ASVS etc that I've met have seemed fairly nice.

The moral of the story, there is the possibility for lying etc, but you can easily check on that kind of thing.

[Slartibartfast]

If by relations you mean what everyone has answered to, that communication means a relation no matter how feeble it is, then yes.

But if you mean like, friendship is real, I would have to say no. There was a time when I thought it to be, but I found plenty of evidence in real-life to the contrary, so I've changed my views.

There's one person that I met on internet that I consider my friend, but that's because got to meet him in person and we really connected and became friends quite fast (that and I stayed in his house for several weeks), I could say the exact opposite about 12 or so other people that I met at the same time.

[Kelly Antilles]

weemadando, it's not that they lie about where they live or if they are male or female, there are other ways they lie. They can lie about their past. Lie that they were in an accident to gain sympathy. There have been lots of ways I've been lied to.