Nice, Ireland and EU Expansion.

victorhadin · Post by **victorhadin** » 2002-10-21 09:56am

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3 ... 38,00.html

Eire Vote Signals EU Boom

Efforts to develop the European Union into what could be the most powerful trading bloc in the world are back on track after a referendum in Ireland.

Irish people voted by a majority of two-to-one to support the Treaty of Nice which paves the way for more countries to join an expanded EU.

The vote reversed the result of last year's referendum when the plan was rejected.

Consult

Saturday's referendum saw 63% of voters support ratifying the treaty, with 37% against.

The parliaments of all the other member states had approved the treaty - only Ireland was constitutionally bound to consult the electorate.

Ten states are preparing to join the EU in 2004.

They are Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Cyprus, Lithuania, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia, Slovakia and Malta.

Solidarity

A further two - Romania and Bulgaria - are behind with their free market reforms but are expected to become members before the end of the decade.

The prime minister of Poland, Leszek Miller, raised a glass of Guinness and broke into song with "I love you like Ireland", adapting a popular Polish ballad.

Hungarian Foreign Minister Laszlo Kovacs praised the Irish vote as one of "responsibility and solidarity".

"They have also given an opportunity, which Ireland enjoyed decades ago when it joined the (EU), to the countries now wishing to join," he said.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-21 11:25am

So basically what we are starting is a United States of Europe and each country loses it's individuality, no thank u, it should also be pointed out there was less than a 50% turnout

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-10-21 11:31am

Muad'Dib wrote:So basically what we are starting is a United States of Europe and each country loses it's individuality, no thank u, it should also be pointed out there was less than a 50% turnout

But if the rest of the people actually cared, shouldn't they have voted?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-21 11:33am

The Treaty of Nice?

Who the Bloody Hell(Pun Intended) Names a Treaty "Nice?"

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 11:38am

Muad'Dib wrote:So basically what we are starting is a United States of Europe and each country loses it's individuality, no thank u, it should also be pointed out there was less than a 50% turnout

That is your opinion. Mine's the opposite. I'm very glad to live in a Unified Europe. With no wars and with solidarity for the poorest regions (like Irland once was, and Portugal).

Countries individuality and patriotism ideas are highly overrated. Cultural differences will always exist. Even in a small country like Portugal traditions vary a lot from region to region. Hell, we even have two legal languages (a fact only known to us, though).

Your views of the voting do not correspond to the entire truth. In the first voting there was a great percentage of abstention, corresponding more to moderate voters, which favor the Union. This time, they were aroused and challenged to vote, and the yes won by almost the double votes than the no.

The Union has a lot of flaws, and a long path to go before being truly functional and democratic, but it's a good idea.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-21 11:43am

The thing that scared me about the vote was that for the fitst time in my life i agreed with Gerry "IRA Commander" Adams. I will never live in a united europe. I am IRISH and i'm staying that way. USE is a bad bad idea and could lead to war with America in the worst case senario. The EU is just the germans trying to do with politics what they failed to do with war. It's proven in history thid is a favoured stratigy, ok u live in Portugal u have a small country, u won't mind being absorbed, u haven't much to lose. I live in the UK and already petty eurocrats are dictating about our life and culture. Have ur USE when it all ends in tears i'll be laughing.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2002-10-21 11:46am

Mr Bean wrote:The Treaty of Nice?

Who the Bloody Hell(Pun Intended) Names a Treaty "Nice?"

Are you really that stupid?

Its a town called Nice (pronounced Niece) where the treaty was written.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-21 11:47am

Are you really that stupid?

Its a town called Nice (pronounced Niece) where the treaty was written.

Excuse me oh great Ted if I don't keep up to date on International Local Politics

And before GAT can say it, Insulting a Mod? Bad idea

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-21 11:52am

Good, all hail the EU all hail me, Dictator of the EU!!!

Seriously though, I want a super-state

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 11:58am

Muad'Dib wrote:The thing that scared me about the vote was that for the fitst time in my life i agreed with Gerry "IRA Commander" Adams. I will never live in a united europe. I am IRISH and i'm staying that way..

So, if the majority of the british is in favour, and eventually you'll adopt the Euro, what will you do? Form an underground movement and declare war? Migrate to the U.S?

USE is a bad bad idea and could lead to war with America in the worst case senario.

Bullshit. In the worst case scenario France and Germany could also declare war to each other. There is no reason why two regions so closely tied like the U.S and E.U, by trade and ideas, would go to war (MAD, btw)
That's just a strawman attempt to rise the bogeyman of war.

The EU is just the germans trying to do with politics what they failed to do with war. It's proven in history thid is a favoured stratigy

Prove it. Or else, why is in fact Germany the highest contributor to the E.U. It is the country which has more to lose. And anyway, it dominates the European economy, union or no union. If the mark was still their currency, its rise and fall would still dictate the rise and fall of the other coins.

, ok u live in Portugal u have a small country, u won't mind being absorbed, u haven't much to lose.

Yes, I would mind. I've already explain why that doesn't happen. After almost a thousand years as a independant state, the several regions of Portugal still maintain different traditions (even languages). Being part of a larger organization doesn't mean dissolution.

I live in the UK and already petty eurocrats are dictating about our life and culture.

In what way? Currency? That's not exactly a big change in culture or life. Or is your country solely defined by its coin?
I.S units? There are scientific and pratical reasons to adopt them. And again, you would survive.

Have ur USE when it all ends in tears i'll be laughing.

It won't happen. That's, at least, my faith

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-21 12:09pm

Ok for a start look at Germany, Hitler tries to gain power by force, he fails, he goes back and uses politics to get his way. He then tried to conquer Europe he fails, his sucessors in the german parliment then decide to start the EU and take by politics what they failed by force.

As for culture for years the UK has used Ibs and Oz now europe tells us we can't, we have to us Kg's and g's, if you don't ur sued.

the UK will never join the EMU Blair would be impeached.

America would resent a huge competator, witn an ass like GWB in charge he's fire a nuke and say his finger slipped when he was polishing his desk.

And most importantly the EU ius doomed to fail because too many weak countried are bringing down the ecconomy. old soviet republics are not solvnet and wll cost the average citizen money and that will breed discontent. Look at how the German economy has nosedived since EMU.

And last of all i hate Leftie fundamentalist bullshit, if i have to i will declare a war in europe and blow the shit outta Brussels

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 12:22pm

Muad'Dib wrote:Ok for a start look at Germany, Hitler tries to gain power by force, he fails, he goes back and uses politics to get his way. He then tried to conquer Europe he fails, his sucessors in the german parliment then decide to start the EU and take by politics what they failed by force.

Sure, nowadays Germany is exactly equal to the one of the third reich. Everyone can see that. I'm waiting for Salm to confirm this. And, of course, the E.U is ruled by german despots instead by majority (or consensus) vote of all countries.

As for culture for years the UK has used Ibs and Oz now europe tells us we can't, we have to us Kg's and g's, if you don't ur sued.

Do you know why? Imperial System sucks. It's not decimal, it's harder to use than I.S and it creates an extra mess in business with the rest of the world (and in science too, space probes have exploded due to that).

the UK will never join the EMU Blair would be impeached.

Last time I heard, the tendency for the Euro was increasing.

America would resent a huge competator, witn an ass like GWB in charge he's fire a nuke and say his finger slipped when he was polishing his desk.

Again, strawman.GWB may be a little slow, but he's certainly not a maniac ass. There are very strong bonds of mutual protection, commerce and culture between the E.U and the U.S. Strong nations are not bond to go to war (or else we would be already fucked, cold war anyone?)

And most importantly the EU ius doomed to fail because too many weak countried are bringing down the ecconomy. old soviet republics are not solvnet and wll cost the average citizen money and that will breed discontent. Look at how the German economy has nosedived since EMU.

Bla bla. twenty years ago the same was said of Portugal, Spain, Greece and Ireland. Closing ourselves from the problems of our neighbours is a sure way of acttracting problems in the future (would you prefer a new soviet union, for instance?

And last of all i hate Leftie fundamentalist bullshit, if i have to i will declare a war in europe and blow the shit outta Brussels

So, you're advocating terrorism.
So nice of you.

Post by **Steve** » 2002-10-21 12:38pm

Don't be so quick to reject the notion of European-American relations going bad.

We are trade rivals in many areas of the world, and have some very key and glaring disagreements. Trade can cause wars too, you know.

Really, I don't think the US and Europe ever really liked or understood each other. Politically we're even farther apart: politicans considered "leftist" in the US would, in Europe, be called right-wingers or centrists.

Ultimately, if Europe gets to a certain level of power, it can contest the United States. And the US has a Trading Empire to concern itself.

I'm very interested in how any future EU-USA difficulties could go if Britain is solidly in the EU. Her Commonwealth would certainly be split, as key Commonwealth members (Australia and Canada particularly) are steadfast US allies.

Someone get Marina in here to continue these thoughts.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 12:54pm

Steve wrote:Don't be so quick to reject the notion of European-American relations going bad.

We are trade rivals in many areas of the world, and have some very key and glaring disagreements. Trade can cause wars too, you know.

Yes, but a war of these proportions would be MAD. That has a strong influence in the process of starting a war.

Remember, Russia and the U.S were more apart than the E.U and the U.S will likely ever be [without the crap of one becoming fascist, it could go both ways]

And I disagree with the idea of a European Superpower, militarly speaking. We must be able to defend ourselves, that's it.

There are more agreements than disagreements. Maybe I'm a little too idealist, but I cling to believe that the western thought will hold true, and that a strong union in principles between the countries is fiasible (otherwise, we are doomed, anyway)

Really, I don't think the US and Europe ever really liked or understood each other. Politically we're even farther apart: politicans considered "leftist" in the US would, in Europe, be called right-wingers or centrists.

For that I can say that the attack on the Twin Towers were truly felt here. With strong emotions. The general sentiment was that we ourselves had been attacked. The average people are much alike, and the principles which rule each society are also very similar.

Ultimately, if Europe gets to a certain level of power, it can contest the United States. And the US has a Trading Empire to concern itself.

The same can be said about China, or Russia, or India. Agreements are always possible, and MAD is a strong argument against maniac thinking.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-10-21 01:22pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
I live in the UK and already petty eurocrats are dictating about our life and culture.
In what way? Currency? That's not exactly a big change in culture or life. Or is your country solely defined by its coin?
I.S units? There are scientific and pratical reasons to adopt them. And again, you would survive.

He's talking about your countries' laws and customs being trampled underfoot
by the Bureaucrats in Brussels...there was an article in the Washington Post
a few months ago about how the barbers in Italy were PISSED that the EU was
overriding Italy's laws on barbershops and trying to push the EU laws
on top of Italy....

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 01:31pm

MKSheppard wrote:He's talking about your countries' laws and customs being trampled underfoot
by the Bureaucrats in Brussels...there was an article in the Washington Post
a few months ago about how the barbers in Italy were PISSED that the EU was
overriding Italy's laws on barbershops and trying to push the EU laws
on top of Italy....

Well, I can accept that. But first I have to know what's exactly the story, because I've never heard of it. Certainly, the barbers in Portugal never had that problem.

It can be a just regulation, you know..

And there is something else you forgot to mention. The laws are not mandatory. I don't exactly know how it its in the States (federal-states relation) but a country in the E.U is not forced to accept a regulation made by the comission. And, well, the comission makes mistakes too.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-10-21 01:54pm

MKSheppard wrote: He's talking about your countries' laws and customs being trampled underfoot
by the Bureaucrats in Brussels...there was an article in the Washington Post
a few months ago about how the barbers in Italy were PISSED that the EU was
overriding Italy's laws on barbershops and trying to push the EU laws
on top of Italy....

Actually the majority of those customs and laws are often just hidden forms of protectionism or others things that should be trampled underfoot in anyway.For example I have heard (a dane told me this story) that until a few years ago Denmark had a law forbidding the sale of beer in aluminium cans.
The only reason behind this was that a foreign company would have had more difficulties in selling its beer in Denmark,having to set up a separate production line for beer in glass bottles.The EU "trampled underfoot" this protectionist law.Even if this specific case is not true there are many similar situations.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-10-21 01:56pm

MKSheppard wrote:there was an article in the Washington Post
a few months ago about how the barbers in Italy were PISSED that the EU was
overriding Italy's laws on barbershops and trying to push the EU laws
on top of Italy....

Well,certainly here in Italy this was not regarded as an important question.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-10-21 01:59pm

The EU is a joke. Seriously, what the fuck was the point in regulating such ultra important topics as how bendy bananas are and the colour of mushy peas?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 02:14pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:The EU is a joke. Seriously, what the fuck was the point in regulating such ultra important topics as how bendy bananas are and the colour of mushy peas?

Thanks for the constructive opinion! Now, where exactily does it say that is a big issue in the Union?

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-10-21 02:22pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
Crazy_Vasey wrote:The EU is a joke. Seriously, what the fuck was the point in regulating such ultra important topics as how bendy bananas are and the colour of mushy peas?
Thanks for the constructive opinion! Now, where exactily does it say that is a big issue in the Union?

It was a fairly big issue over here in England at one point, there was quite a few newspaper articles castigating the EU for these stupid regulations and if the media is against you, the people will be against you. People are sheep and way too many take everything in the tabloids as the gospel truth, from my experience anyway.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 02:27pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote: It was a fairly big issue over here in England at one point, there was quite a few newspaper articles castigating the EU for these stupid regulations and if the media is against you, the people will be against you. People are sheep and way too many take everything in the tabloids as the gospel truth, from my experience anyway.

Yep, one of the problems in England is the massive proliferation of garbish newspapers. And, as everybody knows, they tend to have a fixation with bananas.
Now, how many stories about it were in the Times, Guardian or in the Daily Telegraph?

To be fair, we have our share of tabloids here, as well. They just don't hold so much power.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-10-21 02:29pm

Steve wrote:Don't be so quick to reject the notion of European-American relations going bad.

We are trade rivals in many areas of the world, and have some very key and glaring disagreements. Trade can cause wars too, you know.

Really, I don't think the US and Europe ever really liked or understood each other. Politically we're even farther apart: politicans considered "leftist" in the US would, in Europe, be called right-wingers or centrists.

Ultimately, if Europe gets to a certain level of power, it can contest the United States. And the US has a Trading Empire to concern itself.

I'm very interested in how any future EU-USA difficulties could go if Britain is solidly in the EU. Her Commonwealth would certainly be split, as key Commonwealth members (Australia and Canada particularly) are steadfast US allies.

Someone get Marina in here to continue these thoughts.

The EU is not the Soviet Union.If the americans are so morons to elect someone who shares Azeron political belief as president the EU has the economic potential to build up a military strenght capable of challanging the US should the need arise.
Since in anyway for the next years the US will be busy garrisoning ME hellholes this will give us the time to build up our economy further, improving the situation of eastern countries, and hopefully finding a way to solve military problems (standardization etc).So in anycase I see no immediate danger.Besides if the US decide to destroy us now they will find themselves in a deep shit recession.Without mentioning that we already have weapons of mass destruction

.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-21 02:33pm

Admiral Piett wrote: If the americans are so morons to elect someone who shares Azeron political belief as president the EU

that was just

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-10-21 02:37pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
Crazy_Vasey wrote: It was a fairly big issue over here in England at one point, there was quite a few newspaper articles castigating the EU for these stupid regulations and if the media is against you, the people will be against you. People are sheep and way too many take everything in the tabloids as the gospel truth, from my experience anyway.
Yep, one of the problems in England is the massive proliferation of garbish newspapers. And, as everybody knows, they tend to have a fixation with bananas.
Now, how many stories about it were in the Times, Guardian or in the Daily Telegraph?

To be fair, we have our share of tabloids here, as well. They just don't hold so much power.

I have no idea, those papers are expensive and I don't read them. Anyway all that most people see of the EU here are senseless regulations and viciously scathing newspaper articles. Apart from the Blair friendly newspapers of course, they support it but who takes the Daily Star seriously?