Is this rape?

[Stravo]

A freind of mine recently confided to me that she was troubled by an event that happened a few weeks ago to her. She was out drinking with a coworker/friend that she dug for some time. She goes home and takes him with her, she is wasted, throwing up in the back of the cab, etc.

The rest of the night is sort of foggy to her but she knows she had sex with him, but does not remember many of the details leading up to the act. She did enjoy it, from what she can remember but it troubled her that she could not remember clearly how he ended up in her bed.

She finally broke down and asked him and he said she put him in the day bed outside of her room to sleep and that she went to bed. He then decided on his own to follow her into her bedroom and initiate sex, which she ascented to.

When pressed he only said that she never said no.

Now THAT troubled her (and me as well) She knew she was in no condition to ascent to anything because she was passing in and out due to her drunken state. But she also knows that she enjoyed the sex and he wasn't rough or anything so an issue of force is not the problem. In fact when he would start to do something she didn't like when she said no he would stop.

But what's troubling her now is the sense that she was not in her right mind and he must have known that too even if he was drunk and he initated sex figuring that she was in no state to say no. That troubles her and she wonders if perhaps on some level she had been date raped.

I told her that personally I thought it was downright creepy of him to do that when she made her intent clear by placing him in the day bed that she did nto really want to have sex that night.

But there are plenty of ways I can see someone saying no to the rape thing. Anyone have thoughts or similar experiences. I don't drink (or rarely ever do) so I have no experiences like this in my repetoire.

[Darth Wong]

The guy is clearly an asshole, but if she didn't say no at any point in the process and she was conscious for at least some of the time, then I can hardly see a case for rape. The fact that she says she ENJOYED it hardly substantiates a rape accusation either.

It sounds to me like she had impaired judgement, had sex with the guy, and is now suffering from morning-after remorse. Frankly, I have trouble feeling sympathy for people who make poor judgement calls while drunk. Maybe they shouldn't get drunk, hmmmm?

[Stravo]

The guy is clearly an asshole, but if she didn't say no at any point in the process and she was conscious for at least some of the time, then I can hardly see a case for rape. The fact that she says she ENJOYED it hardly substantiates a rape accusation either.

It sounds to me like she had impaired judgement, had sex with the guy, and is now suffering from morning-after remorse. Frankly, I have trouble feeling sympathy for people who make poor judgement calls while drunk. Maybe they shouldn't get drunk, hmmmm?

She's my best friend and I already wacked her about the drinking (she does it way too often in my opinion) but I also feel like he's a creepy little turd for doing that. His statement that she never said no indicated right away to me that he knew precisely what he was doing.

I myself hesitate to call it out right rape. The enjoying part was in no way meant to imply I thought that obviated rape but it was something she herslef kept going back to when relaying the story so I found it curious and added it to my description.

Long story short kiddies, alcohol and sex can be a very nasty combination.

[Frank Hipper]

Well, if they were both wasted, neither one was thinking straight.

Aren't they adults? How many adults here have not heard horror stories of drunken sex choices?
Is it unreasonable to think that these two have never heard any of these cautionary tales, or that should own up to their responsibilities?

I'm sorry if the old saw "You play, you pay" sounds callous in this situation, but it sounds more like drunken stupidity than rape to me.

I have made questionable sex choices while drunk, to my deep embarrassment, but I realise that I have to own up to being an adult, and taking responsibility for myself.

It's not like he drugged her, after all. Or is it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I wish I didn't have a similar story about one of my sixteen-year-old female friends. Unfortunately I do.

No matter how you look at it, the guy's a real creep and an asshole, and one could hardly feel bad for him if male friends or relatives of said girl played testicle soccer with him.

I'd never have sex with a drunk girl if I was sober, and I don't drink hardly, so I can say the other variant isn't likely (though making committals to what you won't do when drunk is stupid--you're fucking DRUNK, So basically I'm just saying that while I AM in control, I wouldn't, and I'll avoid not being in control.) Just....ugh. Disgusting.

How gratifying would that sex be anyway?

I know a guy who intentionally goes to parties and stays sober so he can talk or cajole or coerce heavily drunk girls into sexual play of one kind or another. Sick fuck.

[Robert Walper]

The guy is clearly an asshole, but if she didn't say no at any point in the process and she was conscious for at least some of the time, then I can hardly see a case for rape. The fact that she says she ENJOYED it hardly substantiates a rape accusation either.

It sounds to me like she had impaired judgement, had sex with the guy, and is now suffering from morning-after remorse. Frankly, I have trouble feeling sympathy for people who make poor judgement calls while drunk. Maybe they shouldn't get drunk, hmmmm?

Amen to that! Drunks so piss me off.

[Rye]

I think he took advantage, but this is something that she c/would've sobered up for and resisted if it was that threatening to her person, i feel. So not quite rape, but taking advantage of.

[consequences]

Its definitely 'Scum-Fuckery', but its a definite grey area. My personal response would be to take the guy out, get him drunk, and then piss him off till he throws the first punch, at which point I would spend a good long while kicking the crap out of him. Then I'd ask him in the morning how it felt to be taken advantage of.

[General Zod]

since she seemed to remember some of it and remember that she was enjoying it a great deal, i'm not really sure i'd be willing to consider it rape.

the guy is obviously a prick if he lied about what she said when they jumped in the sack together, but they were both smashed as well. I'd have to say that it isn't, even though the guy in question might be a dirtbag for using her mental state as an edge.

[Robert Walper]

One question that comes to mind is how drunk was the guy? If he was as drunk as she was, would we still be holding him to the higher level of responsiblity?

[h0rus]

A freind of mine recently confided to me that she was troubled by an event that happened a few weeks ago to her. She was out drinking with a coworker/friend that she dug for some time. She goes home and takes him with her, she is wasted, throwing up in the back of the cab, etc.

The rest of the night is sort of foggy to her but she knows she had sex with him, but does not remember many of the details leading up to the act. She did enjoy it, from what she can remember but it troubled her that she could not remember clearly how he ended up in her bed.

She finally broke down and asked him and he said she put him in the day bed outside of her room to sleep and that she went to bed. He then decided on his own to follow her into her bedroom and initiate sex, which she ascented to.

When pressed he only said that she never said no.

Now THAT troubled her (and me as well) She knew she was in no condition to ascent to anything because she was passing in and out due to her drunken state. But she also knows that she enjoyed the sex and he wasn't rough or anything so an issue of force is not the problem. In fact when he would start to do something she didn't like when she said no he would stop.

But what's troubling her now is the sense that she was not in her right mind and he must have known that too even if he was drunk and he initated sex figuring that she was in no state to say no. That troubles her and she wonders if perhaps on some level she had been date raped.

I told her that personally I thought it was downright creepy of him to do that when she made her intent clear by placing him in the day bed that she did nto really want to have sex that night.

But there are plenty of ways I can see someone saying no to the rape thing. Anyone have thoughts or similar experiences. I don't drink (or rarely ever do) so I have no experiences like this in my repetoire.

No it's not rape. If there's no evidence of rape, forceful sex, there's no reason to assume rape occured. If she's troubled she should go to the authorities. Anyhow, tell your moron friend that if she doesn't want to get into provocative situations where her decisions may be questionable, she should exercise better foresight and not drink to the point of being cold-cocked. I just love these assholes who fuck up, do questionable things while under the influence, and then try to put the blame outward. There's too much pussyfooting over losers who have no self-control. As you can see I'm rather annoyed at these types. Just hate dealing with these people on an ongoing basis. I'm surrounded by these types, and hearing them bitch and moan. I didn't mean to flame you, if that's how I came across. I'm just venting a bit. But your friend did fuck up. She should be glad that guy wasn't someone shady. Chastise her at the next opportunity, it may do her some good.

[Joe]

Not enough information to make a fair decision, but no one forced her to impair her judgment with alcohol.

[Montcalm]

Tell her to stop drinking before she gets gangbanged by some of her co-workers.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Technically, by California law, it was rape.

In CA, even if a drunk girl says "yes," it is still rape because she cannot legally give consent, although I doubt this particular case would ever go to court.

Personally, I would also lean toward calling it rape, but I don't know the girl or the particulars, so I'll give you my perspective on the situation.

I've known quite a few girls who were raped when drunk who were unable to say "no" simply because they were passing out or unaware that they were being raped until it was too late. Most of these girls were traumatized by their experiences (I've known 2 girls who were drunk-raped and thought is was totally cool since that's why they go to parties, so I guess I can't say they were all traumatized). It really affected some of them to the point that they wouldn't date or go to parties for months afterward and affected heir sense of intimacy with their next few relationships. Some still have trouble trusting men.

The one thing they all had in common was that they never reported it to the police, not even the girl who said "no, no, no" (that was all she could do). They seemed to feel that it was their fault for getting drunk, and that they couldn't report it because then they would be shamed and have to admit that they basically deserved it. In effect, they blamed themselves. They internalized it and dealt with it badly.

So, yes, I would say that this can be just as harmful, emotionally, as a forceful rape for a good part of the female population. Of course, it depends on the girl and the specific circumstances.

You might try asking your friend how she really feals about it. Is she repeating that she enjoyed it as some kind of justification for the event? Or to avoid dealing with the sensation of being violated that normally accompanies this type of event? Maybe she won't call it rape simply because she thinks no one else would consider it rape, even if it felt like rape.

This is a very delicate situation and you have to be as supportive of your friend as you can.

[Alan Bolte]

Technically, by California law, it was rape.

In CA, even if a drunk girl says "yes," it is still rape because she cannot legally give consent, although I doubt this particular case would ever go to court.

I'm not entirely clear on one thing here: how drunk was he? Now, if they were both quite drunk, and the event wasn't forced by either party, than by law, is it still rape, as you say, Bob? Is this a sexist law, or did they rape each other, by law?

[Trytostaydead]

As Bob said, if she can't give consent and under her impaired judgement and inability to remember, it probably was rape.. I believe the law favors the female in these situations. However, it would probably not stand under the court of law, as there is probably at this point no sign, if there ever was, of forceful intercourse.. or if any sign of intercourse at all and would be hard to press charges. It would be his word against hers, and while courts are usually more sympathetic to the female.. I'm not sure it would hold, but you're the lawyer, not me.

If anything, if she has anything of her drinks left, I would have them tested for drug rape drugs.

Or, as her best friend, think of something horrifically evil and scarring to do to that scum bag.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Legally, it's rape. If her ability to give consent was impaired by alcohol and he had sex with her anyway, it can be quite clearly defined as rape.

[Macross]

It sounds like she made a bad decision and is now trying to avoid responsability for her actions by rationalizing that it could have been rape.
She should have known better then to "drink-herself-stupid" with a male co-worker, especially one that she liked. Since she was infatuated with him, she may not have wanted him to stop.

[Darth Wong]

Legally, it's rape. If her ability to give consent was impaired by alcohol and he had sex with her anyway, it can be quite clearly defined as rape.

How do you determine whether someone's ability to give consent was impaired by alcohol? Obviously if she was passed out, she could not give consent. But other than that extreme case, how does one make that determination?

[Rogue 9]

I'm not sure, but I think the most likely way they'd do it is by blood alcohol level, the way they determine if you're too intoxicated to operate a vehicle.

[Zaia]

But what's troubling her now is the sense that she was not in her right mind and he must have known that too even if he was drunk and he initated sex figuring that she was in no state to say no.

Emphasis mine.

So, hold up. She was in no state to say no because she was drunk, but he was expected to analyze the situation to knowledgably take advantage of her while he was drunk? That doesn't sit right. Sounds like bad judgement calls all-around.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not sure, but I think the most likely way they'd do it is by blood alcohol level, the way they determine if you're too intoxicated to operate a vehicle.

The ability to operate a vehicle is far more easily disrupted than the ability to decide whether you have to have sex with someone.

[salm]

Technically, by California law, it was rape.

In CA, even if a drunk girl says "yes," it is still rape because she cannot legally give consent, although I doubt this particular case would ever go to court.

so, no matter what you do, if you have sex with a drunk girl in california you´re per defenition a rapist?
let´s say, i´d go out to a bar with my girlfriend and we both get drunk. we go home and have sex. would that make me a rapist? or would that make us both rapists?

[InnerBrat]

OK, I'll bite.

First off: remind me NEVER to go out drinking with any of you, if you think that drinking and inviting you to stay in my spare bed gives you automatic access to my body.

Did he have have sex with her? yes.
Did she give consent? no.

Therefore - it's rape. It's not that difficult to understand.

Now, she can't prove anything, because she has burden of proof, so she can't make a rape case stick, but rape is nearly always a case of his word against hers, which is why there are so many acquittals.

There's all sorts of fucked up definitions of rape in this thread. Rape is sex without consent. It is not defined by drug use, memory, enjoyment, consciousness, violence, or whether you fancied the man to start with. It is defined by a lack of consent

He was sober enough to get up and go into her room, and have sex with her while she was passing in and out of consiciousness. She was sober enough to not die of alcohol poisoning. Being near-catatonic is not an automatic invitation for sex.

And before you ask, yes, I have had a similar experience, in which I was physically unable to prevent a guy doing what he wanted to me. Luckily he wasn't the kind of guy that was turned on by a woman slipping in and out of consciousness. But he also wasn't a friend that I woudl expect to be able to trust and on which trust I had invited into my home, so... *shrug*

[Darth Wong]

OK, I'll bite.

First off: remind me NEVER to go out drinking with any of you, if you think that drinking and inviting you to stay in my spare bed gives you automatic access to my body.

Why not just give up drinking entirely? I don't drink because I see no reason to deliberately impair my own judgement.

Did he have have sex with her? yes.
Did she give consent? no.

Therefore - it's rape. It's not that difficult to understand.

What about her claim that she enjoyed it?