WWII without the US

[admiral_danielsben]

In the vain of World War I without the US, what about the US staying out of World War II (presumably due to no Pearl Harbor)?

The Nazis might win or they might lose - especially if the US sends lend-lease to Britain and the USSR. The result of the latter will probably be a largely soviet-dominated Europe; Britain alone probably lacks the resources and manpower to pull off an invasion of France like Normandy. I'd bet the British re-take North Africa and possibly even a few Greek or Italian islands while using air and sea bombardments to weaken the Nazis, but the USSR will have to do the heavy lifting - especially since the British army and navy will be overextended also fighting the Japanese (unless the Japanese also cancel their invasion of Hong Kong, and ignore British colonies like Singapore).

And the Nazis might win or sign a draw with the USSR - especially if the Point of divergence is Japan attacking the USSR instead of the British/American colonies. Britain may sign a truce, especially if Churchill is pulled out and Halifax or Attlee or someone becomes Prime Minister (Operation Sealion is an almost guaranteed failure; ask anyone at soc.history.what-if - the Germans couldn't overcome the British nav. The only way Britain will go Nazi is if a fascist government led by someone like Oswald Moseley takes power).

Does anyone else have an opinion/commentary or wants to call my proposal hogwash or something?

[Roy Orbison]

Nazis lose but Europe turns red... blood red.

[MKSheppard]

SAC Does Not Turn Back

[Sea Skimmer]

In the vain of World War I without the US, what about the US staying out of World War II (presumably due to no Pearl Harbor)?

The simples answer is: Do a damn web search before starting a thread like this. Its been covered more then once before.

Now for the slightly longer answer, the Soviet Union cannot be conquered, it's logistically impossible. The most likely result is that the Union and Nazi's bleed each other to death on the eastern front while the British flatten Germany, but steady must reduce there role in the war as manpower runs short and there economy goes to hell. They'll probably end up blockading Europe for a few decades. The Nazi's will not win however, they'll be throwing 14 year olds into the front lines before things are done and there economy can only keep going through congest, its collapse is likely.

Don't even try to bring Japan vs. Russia into this. The Japanese where scared shitless of the Russians and would never attack them. They did try it several times in the 1930's, all of which ended in with a huge defeat in 1939. The Russians outclass them in every category of equipment except fighters, and even that was only a brief advantage, and have far superior numbers. The Russian's throughout WW2 maintained huge forces in the east and the Japanese cannot overwhelm them. Fighting such a conflict would just bring another field of battle on which they can be bled to death, attempting to Conquered China was horrible as it was. Know how many divisions Japan could spare for those attacks on the Philippines, the Dutch East Indies, Burma and Malay? Just 10. And of course, without a campaign to seize those resources Japan will suffer total economic collapse anyway, making an invasion of useless Siberian forest about the worst possibul investment.

[Icehawk]

With the US completely out of the War and zero lend lease to Britain or Russia? I'd say probably a decade of Bloody combat assuming Germany still attacks Russia. It'll likely end with all sides calling a stalemate agreement after the populations start to get thin and Germany will be in controll of Europe. Assuming it goes for a decade or more I could see Germany squeezing out an atomic bomb and forcing an end to it all.

Assuming the war ends at a stalemate, Germany may collapse after a while unless they can reform their economy and get a new leader.

[Shortie]

Just FTR you'll need a lot more than no PH to keep the US out. The USN was basically already at war in the Atlantic, and Japan was self-destructing.

OTOH, it's possible with some changes. Given that, I'm not absolutely convinced that the USSR can't be conquered. It'd need a bunch more changes, but lend-lease was important.

Still, most likely in the long run the UK can handle Japan and the USSR can handle the Germans. The Allies being forced to humiliating peace deala instead is unlikely. I'd guess that the UK would be first to get the Bomb, but it might take too long.

[SirNitram]

Germany is crushed but most of Europe is smashed by the time it's done. Rebuilding takes a while longer. That's about it. Germans can't credibly invade Britain and conquering Russia is about as likely as flapping your arms and attaining orbit.

[Son of the Suns]

Without the US Britain would have starved to death, both for materials and food. The Germans would have concoured Europe and Africa, and probably would have developed nuclear weapons long before the union.

[LordShaithis]

If it weren't for World War Two, whatever would we talk about?

But yeah, WW2 - US = Britain looking across the channel at Soviet Europe.

[MKSheppard]

But yeah, WW2 - US = Britain looking across the channel at Soviet Europe.

Actually no.

The allies produced 80.7% of all Soviet Railroad cars, 92.7% of all
soviet railroad rails, 81.6% of all Soviet Locomotives, 59% of all
Soviet Aviation Fuel, 33% of all Soviet Explosives, 45.2% of all copper
ore% 55% of all Aluminum, 30.1% of all tires. 27.9% of all Machine
tools, 29% of all Sugar, 15% of all meat, and 59.7 of all motor
vehicles. In fact, the Soviets stopped light scout tank production
in '43 due to massive shipments of US Stuart Light tanks.

[LordShaithis]

WTF? How the fuck do you know this shit?

Fine.

WW2 - US = Britain looking across the channel at something goddamn bad, one way or another!

[SirNitram]

WTF? How the fuck do you know this shit?

Fine.

WW2 - US = Britain looking across the channel at something goddamn bad, one way or another!

It's called a crater.

And then they rebuild under the tyrannical hand of a drunkard who goes on and on about iron curtains. And keeps insulting a certain bitchy Noblewoman.

[Vendetta]

A smoking ruin, for the most part.

[MKSheppard]

WTF? How the fuck do you know this shit?

Magic.

How are the soviets going to produce thousands and thousands of
T-34s while having to produce motor vehicles, locomotives, steel rails,
rail cars, and lets not forget the T-34's engine block was aluminum

[MKSheppard]

Total victory over the USSR would be an impossibility unless of course
Hitler wasn't so stupid and instead of telling his genrals to go to Kiev,
and other places, insisted that they keep on moving towards Moscow
and Leningrad, rather than making them sit for weeks while soviet
defenses firmed up.

Seriously, even if they captured Moscow and Leningrad, it still would
be a bad distastr, with massive casualties on both sides, and high
probability of a negotiated peace, redrawing German/USSR borders
to be significantly further east than they were before 22 June 41

[Icehawk]

But yeah, WW2 - US = Britain looking across the channel at Soviet Europe.

Actually no.

The allies produced 80.7% of all Soviet Railroad cars, 92.7% of all
soviet railroad rails, 81.6% of all Soviet Locomotives, 59% of all
Soviet Aviation Fuel, 33% of all Soviet Explosives, 45.2% of all copper
ore% 55% of all Aluminum, 30.1% of all tires. 27.9% of all Machine
tools, 29% of all Sugar, 15% of all meat, and 59.7 of all motor
vehicles. In fact, the Soviets stopped light scout tank production
in '43 due to massive shipments of US Stuart Light tanks.

whoa...

[Montcalm]

Here's a good what if the US hadn't got involved in WWII

[Icehawk]

SNIP

I've heard of that movie, although it seems pretty rare (havent seen it at local rental places) and so I likely won't be able to see it. What happens at the end of it? Feel free to post spoilers.

[Gandalf]

SNIP

I've heard of that movie, although it seems pretty rare (havent seen it at local rental places) and so I likely won't be able to see it. What happens at the end of it? Feel free to post spoilers.

Acc. to the IMDb site, it's a TV movie. You'll probably never find it anywhere.

[MKSheppard]

Actually, Germany manages to stake out a peace treaty on the
ostfront, and The USSR probably cedes 1 shitlaod of land,
probably most of the Ukraine and ByeloRussia.

AAnd everything is all happy happy in Der Vaterland until one
day in 1948, German Air Defense Radars start picking up hundreds
of 'very large' targets appraoching at 16,000 meters and at
700 km/h

[aerius]

AAnd everything is all happy happy in Der Vaterland until one
day in 1948, German Air Defense Radars start picking up hundreds
of 'very large' targets appraoching at 16,000 meters and at
700 km/h

Ah...The Big One...heh heh heh...

[J]

Ah...The Big One...heh heh heh...

No no no, The Big One.

[Icehawk]

AAnd everything is all happy happy in Der Vaterland until one
day in 1948, German Air Defense Radars start picking up hundreds
of 'very large' targets appraoching at 16,000 meters and at
700 km/h

Hehe, I know the B-36D is a mighty plane, but 52433ft with a full bombload is a bit of a far cry from the 45,700ft listed on Globalsecurity.org as well as the 45,000ft+ in the Encyclopedia of World Aircraft.

Also just keep in mind that by 1948 der Vaterland could also respond with THIS amoung a few other nasty little things.

[Xenophobe3691]

Actually, Germany manages to stake out a peace treaty on the
ostfront, and The USSR probably cedes 1 shitlaod of land,
probably most of the Ukraine and ByeloRussia.

AAnd everything is all happy happy in Der Vaterland until one
day in 1948, German Air Defense Radars start picking up hundreds
of 'very large' targets appraoching at 16,000 meters and at
700 km/h

I don't get it...

[Enigma]

Without the US Britain would have starved to death, both for materials and food. The Germans would have concoured Europe and Africa, and probably would have developed nuclear weapons long before the union.

Yeah but I think Canada would come to Britain's aid and ship whatever is needed.