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Im not sure if this is the correct forum to post this topic, but here it goes anyways.

First a little personal background, I am a veteran, I love mycountry...hell I would go and fight and die for my country if need be. However recent events(the past 6-12 months or so) have me a bit worried.

As I sit back and watch the news, I notice that every U.S. goverment official that I see giving interviews has a little lapel pin of the USA flag on their jacket or blouse. Hell, even certain members of my work staff has these little flags lapel pins. Now I see this as simple showing of support for the U.S. however it sometimes gives me the creeps as I look at old WWII photographs showing the members of the Nazi party running around with the little Hacken Cruiz(sp) lapel pins.

Recently I took a good German friend to the Movies on the Army Post in Wuerzburg Germany, as the National Anthum played (on all military theaters it is played before the movie starts) We both respectfully stood up and then afterward enjoyed the movie. Afterwards he asked me "What the hell are you guys doing... National Pride is a good thing but too much is dangerouse if not destructive...we learned that 50 years ago."

That made me start thinking.

The American President telling the UN that with or without UN authorization we are going into Iraq after practally ignoring the situation for a decade.

Republican Congressmen telling their colleges that its unamerican not to give the Presindent unwaivering support in this time of National Emergency.

The big uproar about "Under God" in the US Pledge of Allegence which was promoted back in the 50s or 60s by a Christain Organization under
the pretext to difference us from "THOSE GODDLESS COMMIES" Heck..most of the "GOD" references in our government came out during the 50s and 60s i.e. in god we trust, under god because of the "RED SCARE".

I still think the US has a damn good government system...its worked well for over 200 years, but I feel that we must be on guard against these so called Patriots useing religion and Nationalistic retoric, who seem to be comeing more and more into power these days. If it keeps going like this..I feel that we may be forced to learn a very hard lesson...just like the Germans did in the 30s and 40s. and it will happen soon...within our generation or the next.


sorry if I ramble too much but this does worry me a bit.

My dad alway said; Avoid patroitism like the plague. It's a tool politicians use to kill you.

My dad is illeterate, but a very smart man.

I look at it like a pendelum. Every far right nut has his/her equal on the left and for every one that say's that you have to go in lock step with the current administration, there is one that goes and protests against it every weekend.

Its a modern day problem of mass media, that anyone or anything above or below the norm can be broadcasted across the globe for all to see, hear, or read. Unfortunately every nutball on both sides of the political spectrum gets his/her two minutes of fame.

Anyway, sit back and relax because no matter what side your on politicaly, there is plenty of opposition on all fronts to keep the more fundie of the powerful in line. And as always, IMHO.

The biggest threat to American freedoms is from ourselves. Only we can whittle away at the protections in the Bill of Rights and slowly turn America into a much less desirable place.

I didnt know they played the Anthem before a movie on a military base. Seems a bit silly to me, are you not already serving your country?

I think patriotism and nationalism are somewhat different. To me a patriot embraces the things America stands for. A patriot does not try to stiffle dissent or the alternative view. That does not mean he/she agrees with the dissenter but allows that view.

The nationalist believes "my country right or wrong." The nationalist needs an enemy even if there is no threat.

Nationalism inevitably leads to fascism. Its an unfortunate truth.

TrailerParkJawa wrote: The nationalist believes "my country right or wrong." The nationalist needs an enemy even if there is no threat.

Thats the direction the USA is heading for....if we are not there already

Nationalism is an extreme by definition. I think the question you're meaning to ask is, "How much patriotism is too much?"

We headed in that direction when the Berlin wall fell.

After the cold war was over, we started looking for new threats China, NK, etc.

I realize we should keep on the look out for who presents a threat to our interests, but unfortunately preparing for war can lead to one.

I actually think that Americans and mabye just people in general need someone to call a bad guy. Mabye Im over simplifying things, I dunno.

Dargos wrote:

TrailerParkJawa wrote: The nationalist believes "my country right or wrong." The nationalist needs an enemy even if there is no threat.

Thats the direction the USA is heading for....if we are not there already

"My country right or wrong" has been an unofficial motto for the US since at least the 1950s.

You're not the only one who's getting worried about American nationalism running amok. After Sept 11, wherever Shrubby made a public speech the audience would chant 'USA! USA! USA!'. I couldn't help but think of the historical footage of Nazi rallies where the party faithful would chant 'Zeig heil' to Hitler.

Americans will believe and do virtually anything in the name of patriotic nationalism. In the hands of an insane leadership (e.g. Robertson, Falwell, or a hypothetical president Asscroft) there should be no doubt that all Americans would become the most dangerous force on the face of the earth.

Durandal wrote:Nationalism is an extreme by definition. I think the question you're meaning to ask is, "How much patriotism is too much?"

Nope...Nationalism...look at our government and at what its doing...its thumbing its nose on the Worlds Government...or at least its closest appox. the UN. Its the American way or no way...your with us or against us. We're number one..screw the rest! Oh oh...he looks middle eastern...lets lock em up without charges as long as we feel like it due to National Securty. If we are not slipping into the Nationalist mode then I don't know what to call it...but it sure in hell isn't just "Patriotism" not when those that dissent against the choices our government are called "Unamerican".

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I actually think that Americans and mabye just people in general need someone to call a bad guy.

Black and white worlds seem to be a fault inherant in the minds of fundamentalists who belong to any of the big three religions. Since the US is largely dominated by Christian fundies it's really not surprising that a lot of Americans can't cope without a force to oppose. Parts of the world that aren't run by fundies seem to have a much easier time understanding how to live without the need to point an accusing finger at some enemy or other.

We thumb our nose at the UN when the UN does nothing. There are a plenty of right wing and left wing views in America, not to mention Central thinking. If your looking for only one, then it seems that its out of control, but if you look for both sides you'll see that both sides are WELL represented.

Dargos wrote:

Nope...Nationalism...look at our government and at what its doing...its thumbing its nose on the Worlds Government...or at least its closest appox. the UN. Its the American way or no way...your with us or against us. We're number one..screw the rest! Oh oh...he looks middle eastern...lets lock em up without charges as long as we feel like it due to National Securty. If we are not slipping into the Nationalist mode then I don't know what to call it...but it sure in hell isn't just "Patriotism" not when those that dissent against the choices our government are called "Unamerican".

I think you should come to the political re-education camp with me, citizen.

Frank Hipper wrote:

Dargos wrote:

Nope...Nationalism...look at our government and at what its doing...its thumbing its nose on the Worlds Government...or at least its closest appox. the UN. Its the American way or no way...your with us or against us. We're number one..screw the rest! Oh oh...he looks middle eastern...lets lock em up without charges as long as we feel like it due to National Securty. If we are not slipping into the Nationalist mode then I don't know what to call it...but it sure in hell isn't just "Patriotism" not when those that dissent against the choices our government are called "Unamerican".

I think you should come to the political re-education camp with me, citizen.

I love a sound-bite culture... Wait a moment. I've just had a GREAT idea for a parody.

More later.

Frank Hipper wrote:

Dargos wrote:

Nope...Nationalism...look at our government and at what its doing...its thumbing its nose on the Worlds Government...or at least its closest appox. the UN. Its the American way or no way...your with us or against us. We're number one..screw the rest! Oh oh...he looks middle eastern...lets lock em up without charges as long as we feel like it due to National Securty. If we are not slipping into the Nationalist mode then I don't know what to call it...but it sure in hell isn't just "Patriotism" not when those that dissent against the choices our government are called "Unamerican".

I think you should come to the political re-education camp with me, citizen.

LMAO......if only it couldn't become a reality

i dont know, the usa has always had idiotic nationalistic stuff.
for example the pledge of aliegance which they say in school everyday.
the last time i was in the states everybody had one or more ss banners on their CARS!
people dont look at you like you´re stupid if you say you´re proud to be an american.

The government is slowly whittling away at our rights, using excuses like terrorism to make the people comply. The citizenry does not care because it is too ignorant.

Pu-239 wrote:The government is slowly whittling away at our rights, using excuses like terrorism to make the people comply. The citizenry does not care because it is too ignorant.

Yeah, after all the best arguement against democracy is your average voter.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:We headed in that direction when the Berlin wall fell.

After the cold war was over, we started looking for new threats China, NK, etc.

I realize we should keep on the look out for who presents a threat to our interests, but unfortunately preparing for war can lead to one.

I actually think that Americans and mabye just people in general need someone to call a bad guy. Mabye Im over simplifying things, I dunno.

Hello?!?

They were threats before the Soviet Union crashed and burned. The Soviets and China were buddies before they had a falling out, and China was the one that supplied NK with the assistance when it invaded SK 50 years ago.

The true problem wasn't that we went looking for new enemies. The problem was that we made "deals with the devil" with countries that were also enemies of the US, but were viewed as being "lesser" than the Soviet Union.

So, let's see. We have China, a totalitarian state that less than 2 decades ago sent armed troops and tanks against unarmed students peacefully protesting their government's actions, and which has nuclear ICBM's targeted on the US. Yes, that's a real friendly nation there.

And next door, we have NK, which signed a treaty with not only the US but other major nations less than 10 years ago stating they would not try to develop nuclear weapons, but have now admitted that they broke the treaty. Considering their unfriendly status with the US, had they in fact developed ICBM's of their own, do you really think they wouldn't have targeted them at us as well?

The US is far from perfect, and its leaders have made a lot of mistakes over the years that at the time seemed like good ideas "in the interest of national security". But now you're saying that it's wrong for us to change our minds and decide to clean up problems that we helped cause? You sound like my mom's family whenever one of my teenage cousins would get pregnant or impregnated their girlfriend: the only options they thought were right was to have an abortion, or keep the baby, marry or live with the person, and live unhappily like they did. Heaven forbid they not marry the person and give the baby up for adoption, and try to learn from their mistakes. No, they have to make the choice that will make them suffer.

Pu-239 wrote:The government is slowly whittling away at our rights, using excuses like terrorism to make the people comply. The citizenry does not care because it is too ignorant.

Oh... and 9/11 was really planned by the US government... If you really think our government is so bad just go try living in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc... If you can't see the nature of the threat that is a danger to not only the US, but to the rest of the free world you are the one who is ignorant.

Stormbringer wrote:

Pu-239 wrote:The government is slowly whittling away at our rights, using excuses like terrorism to make the people comply. The citizenry does not care because it is too ignorant.

Yeah, after all the best arguement against democracy is your average voter.

Unfortunately true in my hometown. We just had a ballot issue to change the city charter's method of choosing councilmen. Currently, they have 7 seats and partisan voting. Sounds real American and representative... or is it?

Funny thing about my hometown:
-- all of the current councilmen live east of a major road that divides the town down the middle. Out of the 4 wards used to divide the city, they only live in 2 of them.
-- 4 of the 7 live east of the freeway bypass; that section is not only barely within the city limits, but also has the section with the homes with the highest property values, most of which are less than 10 years old. In other words, rich fatcats.
-- 2 of the councilmen live in the same platt/neighborhood, within half a mile of each other.
-- of the 2 wards they live in, none of them include the high schools, middle schools, the historical section of the town, or even the fire department buildings. Most of the main older sections of town aren't in those wards either. Even worse, the projected growth areas for the local school district are over 75%, perhaps 90%, outside those 2 wards.
-- the council has been Republican for as long as I can remember, as has the Mayor (current and past). That wouldn't be a problem if the town was majority Republican... but it's not. The majority in town is, surprisingly, registered independent. So not only do they never see candidates from independent parties on the ballot, but the majority of voters in town can't vote in the primaries that determine what candidates will be available.

The issue would have changed that so that:
-- only 3 of the 7 would be elected at-large.
-- the other 4 would be "ward reps", 1 per ward, and would have to actually reside in that ward.
-- candidates would not be marked according to their party affiliation. In fact, there would no longer have been any primary elections, since anyone who qualified (i.e. resident, had enough petition signatures) would go onto the November ballot.
-- mayoral candidates would also no longer be segregated by party affiliation.

Note that I used conditional phrases. Unfortunately, it was voted down 6-to-4 against. The silver lining was, at least this time they had a lot more voters turn out to vote on the issue. The backers plan to bring the issue back, although they're considering splitting the issue into 2 issues, making the vote-by-wards separate from the non-partisan-voting.

At least the school levy wasn't passed (want a new high school, but didn't provide money for the teachers in the issue, so another one would have come along right behind it, plus they never did put the additions onto the 2 current high schools, even though they were specifically designed to be expanded)...

Commander LeoRo wrote:If you really think our government is so bad just go try living in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc...

Just because there are worse governments out there doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve your own.

greenmm wrote: Hello?!?

They were threats before the Soviet Union crashed and burned. The Soviets and China were buddies before they had a falling out, and China was the one that supplied NK with the assistance when it invaded SK 50 years ago.

The true problem wasn't that we went looking for new enemies. The problem was that we made "deals with the devil" with countries that were also enemies of the US, but were viewed as being "lesser" than the Soviet Union.

So, let's see. We have China, a totalitarian state that less than 2 decades ago sent armed troops and tanks against unarmed students peacefully protesting their government's actions, and which has nuclear ICBM's targeted on the US. Yes, that's a real friendly nation there.

And next door, we have NK, which signed a treaty with not only the US but other major nations less than 10 years ago stating they would not try to develop nuclear weapons, but have now admitted that they broke the treaty. Considering their unfriendly status with the US, had they in fact developed ICBM's of their own, do you really think they wouldn't have targeted them at us as well?

.

The US failed to keep its part of the treaty, which was to supply foodstuffs, medicince, fuel, and a reactor, and a refinery, they havent sent anything over.
The only reason why China got involved in the Korean War was cause MacArthur, when on the Chinese/Korean border, suggested attacking China to get rid of the commies. Idiotic to say the least.

They were threats before the Soviet Union crashed and burned. The Soviets and China were buddies before they had a falling out, and China was the one that supplied NK with the assistance when it invaded SK 50 years ago.

Yeah, the Chinese sure were crazy for being concerned about UN troops nearing their border.

The true problem wasn't that we went looking for new enemies. The problem was that we made "deals with the devil" with countries that were also enemies of the US, but were viewed as being "lesser" than the Soviet Union.

Thats my point exactly. A dictatorship is not a lesser evil than communism. They are the same. We supported dictators who were friendly to US business. Fine, but dont wrap it up in freedom and apple pie.

So, let's see. We have China, a totalitarian state that less than 2 decades ago sent armed troops and tanks against unarmed students peacefully protesting their government's actions, and which has nuclear ICBM's targeted on the US. Yes, that's a real friendly nation there.

Did I ever say they were friendly or good? I did not.

And next door, we have NK, which signed a treaty with not only the US but other major nations less than 10 years ago stating they would not try to develop nuclear weapons, but have now admitted that they broke the treaty. Considering their unfriendly status with the US, had they in fact developed ICBM's of their own, do you really think they wouldn't have targeted them at us as well?

Considering the us pulled out of the ABM treaty I would expect anyone developing ICBM's to consider targeting us. Cause from their point of view, we are developing a first strike capability. I dont believe thats what we want to do, but its THEIR interpetation that matters.

But now you're saying that it's wrong for us to change our minds and decide to clean up problems that we helped cause? You sound like my mom's family whenever one of my teenage cousins would get pregnant or impregnated their girlfriend: the only options they thought were right was to have an abortion, or keep the baby, marry or live with the person, and live unhappily like they did. Heaven forbid they not marry the person and give the baby up for adoption, and try to learn from their mistakes. No, they have to make the choice that will make them suffer.

Umm, im not saying anything like that. Your mom is your issue.

Sorry I dont believe you battle communism by supporting dictators, you dont protect freedom by fighting for a king.

Well, what harm is anyone causing by flying a flag, or wearing a lapel pin? What harm is caused by a bunch of people doing it? would have went on to start World War II anyway, propaganda or not.