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It's time to tell the House of Saud goodbye.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:12am
by The Duchess of Zeon
http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback ... 112602.asp

Important section of note:
While exact figures on this spending are hard to come by, it is clear from what we do know that this is the largest worldwide propaganda campaign ever mounted. Official Saudi sources indicate that between 1975 and 1987, Riyadh's "overseas development aid" averaged $4 billion per year, and there is evidence that this level was maintained in the 1990s. While some of this aid did go to legitimate development-assistance activities, Saudi data show that at least half ($50 billion over two and a half decades) and perhaps as much as two-thirds financed strictly "Islamic activities." Compared to these numbers, the massive Soviet external-propaganda budget (estimated at $1 billion annually at the peak of Moscow's power) looks modest indeed.
That's where all the money goes that could be improving the lot of the Saudi people - To converting people in other countries to the fanatical branch of Islam we call Wahhabism.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:40am
by Frank Hipper
That is staggering. I don't know where you're located, Dutchess, but there have been a series of commercials running here in the US paid for by "the people of Saudi Arabia". Shakespeare's immortal "the lady doth protest too much" sprang to my mind immediately on seeing the first one.
Prince Bandar made a big impression on me during the Gulf War in an interview, it's wearing a bit thin these days.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:48am
by Enlightenment
Just in case anyone's not quite getting the picture yet, 'Islamic activities' equated to propping up regimes like the Taliban and funding Wahabbi mosque-school installations that are little more than terrorist breeding camps.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:13am
by EmperorMing
:shock:

Whoa!!

:shock:

As I suggested—

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:24am
by Patrick Degan
—develop alternative energy, get this country off the oil teat altogether, and we can leave the Saudis to go back to eating sand for a living.

Re: As I suggested—

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:39am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Patrick Degan wrote:—develop alternative energy, get this country off the oil teat altogether, and we can leave the Saudis to go back to eating sand for a living.
Shall I part the Red Sea whilst I'm at it? Scientific innovation is not that easy.

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:16am
by Patrick Degan
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:develop alternative energy, get this country off the oil teat altogether, and we can leave the Saudis to go back to eating sand for a living.
Shall I part the Red Sea whilst I'm at it? Scientific innovation is not that easy.
It is also not impossible, and several viable alternatives already exist or are within easy range of development. It requires nothing particularly exotic in terms of research.

The only real roadblock in the way is our oil-soaked government slaving this country's entire energy policy to serve the profit interests of Exxon et.al.

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:18am
by MKSheppard
Patrick Degan wrote: The only real roadblock in the way is our oil-soaked government slaving this country's entire energy policy to serve the profit interests of Exxon et.al.
Oh and lets forget the inconvient fact that oil is the most wonderfully compact
and portable energy source ever devised. What are you gonna replace
it with? Hydrogen? It costs more energy to make it than you get
from burning it....

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:34am
by The Duchess of Zeon
MKSheppard wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote: The only real roadblock in the way is our oil-soaked government slaving this country's entire energy policy to serve the profit interests of Exxon et.al.
Oh and lets forget the inconvient fact that oil is the most wonderfully compact
and portable energy source ever devised. What are you gonna replace
it with? Hydrogen? It costs more energy to make it than you get
from burning it....
Indeed.

I'll tell you what, Patrick:

If you can make a fuel cell which will replace the V-8 internal combustion engine currently under the hood of my '86 Cadillac Fleetwood without body modification, and provide the same or improved performance in all aspects (maximum speed, acceleration, efficiency, and etc) - With a hydrogen tank which can replace the gas tank, again without body modification - Then you'll have a fuel cell that is economically viable for the American car market.

Until you can do that, or at least, and more properly, design a new car with the same/similiar weight and performance as said Caddy that runs on a fuel cell - IE, a proper luxury car - And by extrapolation of example, the full range of vehicles that people buy - fuel cells will not be economically viable.

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:42am
by Cthulhu-chan
What, and oil doesn't? Locating, drilling, transporting, distilling, refining, and transporting again isn't free. Not to mention burning oil is a major pollutant, plus all the dreck from distilling the crude oil and waste chemicals for turning the distilled oil into gasoline.

Why, yes! I have seen the light! Oil is absofuckinglutely marvelous!

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:42am
by Patrick Degan
MKSheppard wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:The only real roadblock in the way is our oil-soaked government slaving this country's entire energy policy to serve the profit interests of Exxon et.al.
Oh and lets forget the inconvient fact that oil is the most wonderfully compact and portable energy source ever devised.
A comment which I think a few nuclear scientists would find most amusing.
What are you gonna replace it with? Hydrogen? It costs more energy to make it than you get from burning it....
And its energy density is twice that of oil. The only reason it presently costs more is because of the current lack of commercial infrastructure to support it. That can be remedied with a few years serious effort, and there are possible means to extract hydrogen from natural gas and utilise the already existing NG distribution network to support it.

But I suppose continuing to be economic slaves to the House of Saud (which finances Islamic extremists and terrorism with oil money, BTW) is preferrable, in your view.

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:58am
by MKSheppard
Patrick Degan wrote: A comment which I think a few nuclear scientists would find most amusing.
Oh and it's easy to store and you don't need lead lined casks too.

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:04am
by Cthulhu-chan
Sure don't, just lead-acid batteries to use it.

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:05am
by Patrick Degan
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I'll tell you what, Patrick:

If you can make a fuel cell which will replace the V-8 internal combustion engine currently under the hood of my '86 Cadillac Fleetwood without body modification, and provide the same or improved performance in all aspects (maximum speed, acceleration, efficiency, and etc) - With a hydrogen tank which can replace the gas tank, again without body modification - Then you'll have a fuel cell that is economically viable for the American car market.

Until you can do that, or at least, and more properly, design a new car with the same/similiar weight and performance as said Caddy that runs on a fuel cell - IE, a proper luxury car - And by extrapolation of example, the full range of vehicles that people buy - fuel cells will not be economically viable.
That, dear Duchess, is what these things we call "science" and "engineering" are all about.

But as for trying to hang on to the current standard of vehicle construction forever, that's about as viable an idea as trying to preserve the horse-drawn buggy was when the internal combustion engine first made its debut.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't introduce a new propulsion technology and expect that it will accomodate the present standard of vehicle design, and you can't tell the House of Saud goodbye without eliminating dependence on oil.

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:15am
by MKSheppard
Patrick Degan wrote: Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't introduce a new propulsion technology and expect that it will accomodate the present standard of vehicle design, and you can't tell the House of Saud goodbye without eliminating dependence on oil.
Actually, we can just drill in the Gulf of Mexico. More oil is there than in Saudi
Arabia, but it's so damn deep it's currently economically unfeasible to drill
now.....but if Saudi Arabia was somehow irradated......

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:23am
by Cthulhu-chan
Why yes, nuking the middle east is a far more intelligent method of getting the U.S. off the Saudi teat than using a renewable, clean energy source that we would not have to be reliant on anyone to provide...


Simply brilliant.

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:25am
by MKSheppard
Cthulhu-chan wrote: Simply brilliant.
Hey, right now it's unfeasable to drill in the Gulf, but if SA was wasted, we'd
Have to....

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:35am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Patrick Degan wrote:
That, dear Duchess, is what these things we call "science" and "engineering" are all about.

But as for trying to hang on to the current standard of vehicle construction forever, that's about as viable an idea as trying to preserve the horse-drawn buggy was when the internal combustion engine first made its debut.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't introduce a new propulsion technology and expect that it will accomodate the present standard of vehicle design, and you can't tell the House of Saud goodbye without eliminating dependence on oil.
Then that propulsion technology better let me wrap more metal and leather around myself than the current technology, provide better acceleration, and in general be worthwhile replacing the internal combustion engine vehicle I currently have.

I won't accept a sacrifice in vehicle size, acceleration, range, or any other feature over what I currently prefer, simply for something cleaner or "not reliant on the Saudis".

Original cars were built on horse-drawn buggy frames. The very, very early ones. They were basically motor-powered buggies. Curious, no? And people bought them - Because the engine provided an improvement in some fashion in the performance of a buggy of the same size as the others, or at least the builders figured it was close enough that they could convince people of that and sell 'em.

Until Fuel Cells have the same ability, they will remain a novelty. Once they have that ability, they will be put in cars on a regular basis and they will start getting refined.

Honestly, though, we need fuel for more than just keeping our cars gassed up. It is the underpinning of the world economy, and I am quite willing to go to war to secure it. Repeatedly. We're an economic Empire on the Periclean Athenian model and there's nothing wrong with that.

But did something else occur to you, Patrick, in all your inestimable wisdom of making this about oil? Did you read my article about Salafism?

Let's imagine for the moment we do what you say, take the hit, leave the Muslim States alone to stew in their own juices. Wahhabism is moderate Salafism; in Salafism you can fight against heretical Muslim rulers, condemn other Sunnis as heretics and so on. OBL is a Salafist, the KSA is Wahhabi and so are their schools. Wahhabis are a branch of Salafism.

Okay, so we've got these people here; they're selling oil to those who will still buy it, trying to monopolize the market and squeeze out what they can. Prices fall, naturally, less demand.

People in the Muslim countries suffer immensely - They turn to religion. Wahhabism spreads even more, the Saudis, seeing the spread of fanaticism in their own country, fund it yet to stave off their own collapse internally.

People, though, as things continue - They see that their regimes are growing more despotic and cruel, hording remaining resources to stay afloat, letting them starve or die of thirst and the like.

They turn to Salafism and revolt.

Welcome to united Islam - A united Salafist Caliphate. Complete with nuclear weapons, too, courtesy of Pakistan.

That would really, really be great. They have one goal, Patrick - World conquest. Everyone either converts or pays the Faith Tax.

The death toll would be worse than even I've predicted at times, and with our economies crippled by going green, I'm not sure who would win. Maybe we'd endure a few millenia of fatwas as a human race before coming out of another dark age.

Great idea.

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:36am
by Cthulhu-chan
T MK: And just how the hell do you see moving our reliance on one locale for a depletable energy source to another locale to be superior to removing our reliance on depletable energy completely?

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:51am
by MKSheppard
Cthulhu-chan wrote:T MK: And just how the hell do you see moving our reliance on one locale for a depletable energy source to another locale to be superior to removing our reliance on depletable energy completely?
Because it's under OUR thumb.....and I've heard rumors that it isn't depletable.

Go look up Oil Seeps

Posted: 2002-11-27 05:55am
by Patrick Degan
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
That, dear Duchess, is what these things we call "science" and "engineering" are all about.

But as for trying to hang on to the current standard of vehicle construction forever, that's about as viable an idea as trying to preserve the horse-drawn buggy was when the internal combustion engine first made its debut.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't introduce a new propulsion technology and expect that it will accomodate the present standard of vehicle design, and you can't tell the House of Saud goodbye without eliminating dependence on oil.
Then that propulsion technology better let me wrap more metal and leather around myself than the current technology, provide better acceleration, and in general be worthwhile replacing the internal combustion engine vehicle I currently have.
Again, that's what these things we call "science" and "engineering" are all about.
I won't accept a sacrifice in vehicle size, acceleration, range, or any other feature over what I currently prefer, simply for something cleaner or "not reliant on the Saudis".
Ah, comfort is more important than national security and independence. You really should examine the ordering of your priorities sometime.
Original cars were built on horse-drawn buggy frames. The very, very early ones. They were basically motor-powered buggies. Curious, no? And people bought them - Because the engine provided an improvement in some fashion in the performance of a buggy of the same size as the others, or at least the builders figured it was close enough that they could convince people of that and sell 'em.
Um, not quite correct. The earliest cars built on horse buggie frames and powered by one-cyllinder engines were not better performers than anything drawn by a horse and they tended to be somewhat unreliable. They remained curiosities in the market. It wasn't until Henry Ford came along and built a viable car which could be mass-produced and did deliver better/more reliable power than a team of horses that the car became predominant.
Until Fuel Cells have the same ability, they will remain a novelty. Once they have that ability, they will be put in cars on a regular basis and they will start getting refined.
Again, that's what "science" and "engineering" are for.
Honestly, though, we need fuel for more than just keeping our cars gassed up. It is the underpinning of the world economy, and I am quite willing to go to war to secure it. Repeatedly. We're an economic Empire on the Periclean Athenian model and there's nothing wrong with that.
Except that your implicit premise that we can conquer the Middle East to secure cheap oil for the forseeable future is lunacy to begin with. You can't secure a foreign resource through war. The Japanese attempted that experiment between 1931-1945 and the result was disasterous to say the least.

And you can take comfort in your idea of our being an economic empire on the Periclean Athenian model —so long as you can assure yourself that we're not headed into our own Pelopponesian War, that is.

Posted: 2002-11-27 06:01am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Patrick Degan wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Except that your implicit premise that we can conquer the Middle East to secure cheap oil for the forseeable future is lunacy to begin with. You can't secure a foreign resource through war. The Japanese attempted that experiment between 1931-1945 and the result was disasterous to say the least.

And you can take comfort in your idea of our being an economic empire on the Periclean Athenian model —so long as you can assure yourself that we're not headed into our own Pelopponesian War, that is.
An Empire on the Periclean Athenian model is not based on conquest, but rather on military strength, expressed through seapower, and operating to enforce alliances and hegemon to maximize trading benefits.

We already have an Empire which fits that definition; we don't need to conquer a single country, just put down allies who step out of line and replace their governments with ones that don't have any reason to (And, if we are wise, provide them benefits so that their people will not, either).

Posted: 2002-11-27 06:05am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Patrick Degan wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:

Ah, comfort is more important than national security and independence. You really should examine the ordering of your priorities sometime.
My analysis is based entirely on national security; we need oil for a heck of a lot more than just automobiles. Note that I edited my post to extend the line of thought properly.


Um, not quite correct. The earliest cars built on horse buggie frames and powered by one-cyllinder engines were not better performers than anything drawn by a horse and they tended to be somewhat unreliable. They remained curiosities in the market. It wasn't until Henry Ford came along and built a viable car which could be mass-produced and did deliver better/more reliable power than a team of horses that the car became predominant.
Cars were viable before Henry Ford for the wealthy - Remember a certain Rolls Royce which is still in running condition today? Certainly the very first were far more primitive. Also, unreliable - But consider the cost of maintaining a team of horses in comparison.... And I never asked you to make a Cadillac-equivlant cheap.

Posted: 2002-11-27 06:05am
by Patrick Degan
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:An Empire on the Periclean Athenian model is not based on conquest, but rather on military strength, expressed through seapower, and operating to enforce alliances and hegemon to maximize trading benefits.
You rather missed the point of what I was saying. Furthermore, the Pelopponesian War began through the attempt to enforce claims to dependencies with Spartan ally Corinth.
We already have an Empire which fits that definition; we don't need to conquer a single country, just put down allies who step out of line and replace their governments with ones that don't have any reason to (And, if we are wise, provide them benefits so that their people will not, either).
Funny, the Soviet Union thought the same way. Look where they ended up.

Posted: 2002-11-27 06:10am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Patrick Degan wrote:
You rather missed the point of what I was saying. Furthermore, the Pelopponesian War began through the attempt to enforce claims to dependencies with Spartan ally Corinth.
You're absolutely right... About the Peloponnesian War. But the Muslim world doesn't have the power to resist us; where will an ally the like of Sparta come from? China, Russia, they are both hostile to the Muslim cause. Europe has many Muslims in it, and the EU is a more worthy foe - But those Muslims are far more likely to attempt to subvert those governments, than to influence their foreign policy.
Funny, the Soviet Union thought the same way. Look where they ended up.
The Soviet Union was all stick and no carrot, to use a rather old idiom.