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Putin Brings Back Soviet Red Star

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:44am
by MKSheppard
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... a_red_star

Image

Putin Brings Back Soviet Red Star

Tue Nov 26,12:21 PM ET
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer

MOSCOW - President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) agreed Tuesday to reinstate the Soviet-era red star as the Russian military's official emblem — in the latest reincarnation of Communist symbols that has sparked fears of a return to the repressive past.

The proposal came from Defense Minister Sergei
Ivanov, who spoke Tuesday at a meeting of Russia's top generals attended by Putin.

"The star is sacred for all servicemen," Ivanov said in remarks broadcast on Russian television as Putin sat behind him, frowning his brow. "Our fathers and grandfathers went to battle with the star."

Putin quickly endorsed Ivanov's appeal, and then voiced hope that the speakers of both houses of the Russian parliament would succeed in "convincing" lawmakers to approve the corresponding legislation.

The proposed resurrection of the red star is expected to be popular with the conservative military and appeared to be an attempt by the Kremlin to reinforce servicemen's loyalty. But Putin's critics said it also sent a powerful signal to the rest of the country.

"It's very serious because it doesn't just feed old people's nostalgia, but also affects the youth who don't understand the fascist or communist ideologies but are eager to grasp their symbols," Sergei Grigoryants, a Soviet-era dissident and strong critic of the government, said in a telephone interview.

On Putin's initiative, the Russian parliament earlier resurrected the music of the old Soviet anthem, albeit with a new words, and brought back the Soviet- era red banner as the military's flag. At the same time, it also endorsed the czarist-era white-red-and-blue flag that Russia has been using since the 1991 Soviet demise and the old imperial emblem of a double-headed eagle.

Putin has shrugged off criticism from liberals, who voiced fears that the return of the Communist symbols could herald the comeback of the Soviet- style authoritarian regime. He countered that the use of Soviet-era symbols should help mend deep rifts in society by acknowledging the achievements of the Soviet past that older generations cherish.

Lyudmila Alexeyeva, a Soviet-era dissident who heads the Moscow Helsinki Group, a leading human rights organization, said that Putin has turned to old symbols in a bid to strengthen his support base.

"No one is left out: Communists get their anthem, the conservatives have a double-headed eagle and democrats their tricolor flag," she said. "It makes one wonder what kind of national ideology such a state has."

Some observers interpreted the call for resurrecting the red star as an indication that the Kremlin had abandoned its push for radical military reform. The Kremlin had championed the creation of a leaner, professional military instead of the balky Soviet-style armed forces intended to confront the west.

"It may look like a trifle, but it gives an important signal to both the top brass and the civilian bureaucracy that the Soviet military machine will remain," said Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent military analyst.

The Kremlin's plans to abandon the unpopular draft and switch to an all- volunteer force have met stiff resistance from the top military brass who said that the move would be too costly. In the ranks, there is smoldering discontent over wages which remain miserable at the equivalent of just over US$100 a month for a junior officer despite a recent increase.

The proposed restoration of the star is expected to easily pass through the parliament, which is dominated by pro-government centrists, who obediently follow the Kremlin's wishes.

The five-point star has been the symbol of the Red Army since it was established in the wake of the 1917 Bolshevik revolution. Along with the hammer-and-sickle, it also appeared in the corner of the Soviet red flag.

Putin's attitude about Soviet-era symbols is in sharp contrast with the policy of his predecessor, Boris Yeltsin, who loathed the Communist symbols and staunchly resisted hardliners' pressure to restore the old anthem.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:02am
by Vympel
Putin also instituted the new Russian National Anthem. I have it on mp3. It's awesome- the old Soviet tune... with new words. This is not a bad thing IMO. The music of the anthem reflects Russian history.

As to this Red Star thing, what exactly is being changed? Where is the Red Star going?

Pavel Felgenhauer is a useless whore who never shuts up. Thereis absolutely no connection between the Red Star and the 'Soviet military machine'- which is conscript based. Putin and Ivanov have yet again said that come 2007 they hope to make the Russian Army go professional- they're going to drag the officers kicking and screaming into the 21st century. The conscription system and size of the army is clearly broken and unwieldy.

As to 'return to oppressive past' it sounds like paranoia to me.

Anyone remember that Simpsons episode?

"Soviet Union .... we thought you guys broke up!"

"heheheh yessssss that's what wve wvanted you to think!" *pushes button, Russia label on UN flips and becomes Soviet Union*

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH"

*parade floats open up and tanks roll out*
*Berlin Wall pops up, complete with guards*
*Soviet soldiers appear out of nowhere and start marching the way they do- and it looks so good*
*Lenin bursts out of the mausoleum screaming about crushing capitalism*

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:02am
by Sea Skimmer
This is good for three reasons
[1] The Russians will save on paint and can buy more training ammo
[2] The star is far less of a target then those big fucking flags they painted on some tanks
[3] The star is far cooler. At least the Russian navy got back its old nice looking Tsarist era flag from the start. As it is the flag the Russian government and army uses just sucks.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:03am
by Sea Skimmer
Vympel wrote:Putin also instituted the new Russian National Anthem. I have it on mp3. It's awesome- the old Soviet tune... with new words. This is not a bad thing IMO. The music of the anthem reflects Russian history.
How big is this MP3? And where might I find it?

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:05am
by Evil Sadistic Bastard
Sea Skimmer wrote:This is good for three reasons
[1] The Russians will save on paint and can buy more training ammo
[2] The star is far less of a target then those big fucking flags they painted on some tanks
[3] The star is far cooler. At least the Russian navy got back its old nice looking Tsarist era flag from the start. As it is the flag the Russian government and army uses just sucks.
1) More power to them though I don't know how much paint it will save.
2)ESB = concur. Actually, they should just do away with the insignia (bright red star = target marker) but if they need an insignia the stars better.
3)YEah, the flag does look a lot cooler and could raise morale.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:09am
by Vympel
Sea Skimmer wrote:This is good for three reasons
[1] The Russians will save on paint and can buy more training ammo
[2] The star is far less of a target then those big fucking flags they painted on some tanks
[3] The star is far cooler. At least the Russian navy got back its old nice looking Tsarist era flag from the start. As it is the flag the Russian government and army uses just sucks.
Wholeheartedly agree on all points :)

The Anthem is 5.72 megs.... frick I can't remember where I found it! It was just the other day! The file name is anthem-russia-2000-bolshoith.mp3

Try a google search with new Russian national anthem .mp3 or something .... it didn't take me too long.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:11am
by Vympel
http://www.skazka.no/anthems/

Here it is!

Take your pick of which version. I recommend the filename I gave above.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:18am
by Sea Skimmer
Vympel wrote:http://www.skazka.no/anthems/

Here it is!

Take your pick of which version. I recommend the filename I gave above.
Thanks, Downloading now

Posted: 2002-11-27 04:26am
by Evil Sadistic Bastard
The new anthem sounds great.

Posted: 2002-11-27 10:06am
by Oberleutnant
I had been looking for the new Russian anthem for a while... Thanks a lot!

Posted: 2002-11-27 12:34pm
by Cpt_Frank
Ah the glorious red star...
the memories.....

Posted: 2002-11-27 01:18pm
by C.S.Strowbridge
Ok, granted, it's 10:13 am and I still haven't gotten to sleep yet, but I don't see what the problem is. So they want to old star back. That's a hell of a slippery slope back to authoritarian communism.

Too bad they can't slippery slope back to superpower status. The world needs another superpower, and New Strowbrinia isn't up to the task quite yet.

Posted: 2002-11-27 01:50pm
by Newtonian Fury
They need to slippery slope back to a powerful economy first before they can roll the military machine again. Truth be told, communism can be a good transitional government. They just need to change to capitalism after enough goods are produced.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:06pm
by C.S.Strowbridge
Newtonian Fury wrote:They need to slippery slope back to a powerful economy first before they can roll the military machine again. Truth be told, communism can be a good transitional government. They just need to change to capitalism after enough goods are produced.
I liked it in Civilization, very stabilization. Then again, is Civilization a Musketeer had a 1 in 32 chance of defeated a Battleship.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:18pm
by Stormbringer
C.S.Strowbridge wrote:
Newtonian Fury wrote:They need to slippery slope back to a powerful economy first before they can roll the military machine again. Truth be told, communism can be a good transitional government. They just need to change to capitalism after enough goods are produced.
I liked it in Civilization, very stabilization. Then again, is Civilization a Musketeer had a 1 in 32 chance of defeated a Battleship.
Thank you for that wonderful and insightful post. :evil:

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:23pm
by Mr Bean
Anyone remember that Simpsons episode?

"Soviet Union .... we thought you guys broke up!"

"heheheh yessssss that's what wve wvanted you to think!" *pushes button, Russia label on UN flips and becomes Soviet Union*

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH"

*parade floats open up and tanks roll out*
*Berlin Wall pops up, complete with guards*
*Soviet soldiers appear out of nowhere and start marching the way they do- and it looks so good*
*Lenin bursts out of the mausoleum screaming about crushing capitalism*
Twas a great Epsiode and I love whoever did the Voice for the Russian guy


Also the acutal Lenin part was him lieing the glass coffin and suddenly his eyes burst open, the school-children there scream and run away as he slowly climbs out and walks mummy like out say.. "Must Crush Capitalism" :)

As for the topic... ahh the great red star, glad to see it back

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:27pm
by C.S.Strowbridge
Stormbringer wrote:
C.S.Strowbridge wrote:
Newtonian Fury wrote:They need to slippery slope back to a powerful economy first before they can roll the military machine again. Truth be told, communism can be a good transitional government. They just need to change to capitalism after enough goods are produced.
I liked it in Civilization, very stabilization. Then again, is Civilization a Musketeer had a 1 in 32 chance of defeated a Battleship.
Thank you for that wonderful and insightful post. :evil:
And the comments about the Simpson are the pinicle of insightfulness?

All I was saying is that Civilization's take on Communism is very similar to Newtoinian Fury's. However, this supporting evidence it tempered by that lack of overall realism in the game.

That is not to say it wasn't a fun game, I don't want to start another 18 page flame war.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:34pm
by Newtonian Fury
Civilization's take on communism was that it can be maintained indefinitely. My take on it is that it cannot. It can provide immediate relief by, say, distribute enough food so people don't starve or make sure certain necessities are produced. It just cannot be maintained in the long run due to inefficiency and human behavior.

Posted: 2002-11-27 02:50pm
by C.S.Strowbridge
Newtonian Fury wrote:Civilization's take on communism was that it can be maintained indefinitely. My take on it is that it cannot. It can provide immediate relief by, say, distribute enough food so people don't starve or make sure certain necessities are produced. It just cannot be maintained in the long run due to inefficiency and human behavior.
Really? Man, how long as it been since I've played. They didn't have the no Rebellion after a government change, right? Or am I thinking of something else.

Anywho, I think you are essentially right. Communism can stabilize the situation, and once you economy is clicking along you slowly switch to capitalism.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:18pm
by Cpt_Frank
Twas a great Epsiode and I love whoever did the Voice for the Russian guy

Also the acutal Lenin part was him lieing the glass coffin and suddenly his eyes burst open, the school-children there scream and run away as he slowly climbs out and walks mummy like out say.. "Must Crush Capitalism
Wasn't it the Episode were Homer joins the navy reserve and ends up on a submarine?

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:20pm
by Mr Bean
Yes it was Frank

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:21pm
by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi
Cpt_Frank wrote:
Twas a great Epsiode and I love whoever did the Voice for the Russian guy

Also the acutal Lenin part was him lieing the glass coffin and suddenly his eyes burst open, the school-children there scream and run away as he slowly climbs out and walks mummy like out say.. "Must Crush Capitalism
Wasn't it the Episode were Homer joins the navy reserve and ends up on a submarine?
Yes, it was.

And, I think Communism wouldn't stabilize things, since some wouldn't want it, and I don't think it would do much for the economy. However, it's not like Russia's economy can get any worse.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:23pm
by Pablo Sanchez
Strowbridge, it's not a slide back to Communism, it's actually a slide into Nationalism.

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:30pm
by Pablo Sanchez
Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Yes, it was.

And, I think Communism wouldn't stabilize things, since some wouldn't want it, and I don't think it would do much for the economy. However, it's not like Russia's economy can get any worse.
On the contrary, Communism is wonderfully stable once established. The Soviet Union stayed up and running for 70+ years, despite often disastrous leadership, a piss-poor economy, and general dissatisfaction among the people. Fidel Castro is still in power. The North Korean Commies stand at the head of an impoverished and starving nation, but they're still going to hang on for the forseeable future.

As for people not wanting it: Anyone who isn't rich and has no experience with the practice of Communism is going to love the theory of Communism. Marxism is about as peacenik and lovey-dovey as political theory can get (once the peoples' revolution is successful, that is).

Posted: 2002-11-27 03:42pm
by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi
How did such problems become rampant in Communist governments? Was it related to the policies, or the people implementing them?