D-Day, you redesign the German defence

[Omega-13]

Go for it, why did it fail, and how would you have changed it

[Vejut]

Rommel in charge, knock 'em off the beach at first: don't let them get a foothold. Bring up the armor, if they breach at the beachhead, fortify the Bocage and issue as many Panzerschrecks as you can. Can't move people from Pas-de-Calais: you don't know that Patton's decoy is a decoy (looks real as far as intel can see...), so that hurts...More importantly, prep supply better ahead of time, and get the bloody Luftwaffe off their asses and into the air to contest the landing. Most of all, ignore orders from the Fuher about anything more than general objectives. (just did a short, badly researched paper on D-Day....anyone feel free to correct me where I'm wrong...)

[TrailerParkJawa]

Change Hitler's mind about the Me-262, so that it was in full production as a fighter when the allies hit the beach. If there was enough of them the Allies might not have had air superiority.

It might not change the outcome of the invasion, but it would have made the fight much tougher for the allies.

[Omega-13]

Well the 16 inch guns of the IOWA's out ranged the German pieces at the beach, so those big guns were basically useless, too big to hit the landing craft, and didn't have the range to hit the battle ship, or supply ships way out off the coast.

So this is what I'D do, and PLEASE, tell me if it would work, and if not, why not,

Replace 50% of the larger cannons (the stationary ones) with smaller 88 mm mobile cannons, to concentrate on the beach head, and try and blast the troops as they hit the beach. The machine gun bunkers were good, they certainly took their toll on the allies, so I wouldn't change those at all.
Also, if there were a break in the incline of the slope, between the beach and the upper rocks where a lot of the bunkers were, i'd create some sort of obstical so the allies couldn't rush up the embankment, landmines..no they can be blown away, but tons of barbwire, which is a lot harder to get rid of., especially if stretch from hundreds and hundreds of meters, in all directions.

Not sure what else, the problem is the battleships pounding the coast, and if you build big cannons on the coast, those are just bigger stationary targets...not sure what to do about those, aircraft get smached around by battleships, there was only 1 battleship sunk during the entire second world war, by JUST air craft, and that took 450 of them...so..you need subs in there aswell, big mess...

[TrailerParkJawa]

only 1 battleship sunk during the entire second world war, by JUST air craft, and that took 450 of them.

Thats not true. Plenty of BB's were sunk by JUST aircraft. Pearl Harbor is a good example.

As to the IOWA's I dont belive there were any at Normandy.

Replace 50% of the larger cannons (the stationary ones) with smaller 88 mm mobile cannons, to concentrate on the beach head, and try and blast the troops as they hit the beach. The machine gun bunkers were good, they certainly took their toll on the allies, so I wouldn't change those at all.
Also, if there were a break in the incline of the slope, between the beach and the upper rocks where a lot of the bunkers were, i'd create some sort of obstical so the allies couldn't rush up the embankment, landmines..no they can be blown away, but tons of barbwire, which is a lot harder to get rid of., especially if stretch from hundreds and hundreds of meters, in all directions.

The germans had the beaches bracketed with artillery and mortar fire. Swapping out the larger cannons for 88's wont help much in my opinion.
Id rather keep the 88's back in the hedgerows to defend against allied armor and aircraft.

I think what the Germans really needed was to get armor to the beach ASAP.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'd get a Ju-188 to make a reconnaissance of the beaches, and then fly to England.

Only a waterline defense can work, once the Allies where established even a few miles inland they would never be dislodged. Too much naval gunfire, too little air supports to drive it off and far to many fighter-bombers to break up any armored attack.

However a waterline defense of sufficient strength can't be achieve over any real distance. Calais and Normandy where the only really viable landing areas. And both can't be held in sufficient strength. The Allies would just land somewhere else, or bring up even more battleships and shoot it out. Even the batteries at Calais would be out matched by what was historically sent to Normandy, and while Cherbourg proved that casemates are a bitch to knock out, they are easy enough to keep busy and suppressed.

An inland line might buy time, but not much at all. It’s a hopeless situation, by the time you planning to defend France the war was already lost, no clever tactics, planning or super weapons could realistically expect to bring victory.

[Sea Skimmer]

Not sure what else, the problem is the battleships pounding the coast, and if you build big cannons on the coast, those are just bigger stationary targets...not sure what to do about those, aircraft get smached around by battleships, there was only 1 battleship sunk during the entire second world war, by JUST air craft, and that took 450 of them...so..you need subs in there aswell, big mess...

I can think of ten battleships and battlecruisers sunk by pure air attacks off the top of my head. Need me to name them?

[Sea Skimmer]

The germans had the beaches bracketed with artillery and mortar fire. Swapping out the larger cannons for 88's wont help much in my opinion.
Id rather keep the 88's back in the hedgerows to defend against allied armor and aircraft.

I think what the Germans really needed was to get armor to the beach ASAP.

Where it will promptly be killed by naval gunfire. Even at Salarno, with hills and thick woods to hid in and constant air attacks keeping the warships busy, German armor stuffer heavily. And that was just against six inch cruisers.

[phongn]

only 1 battleship sunk during the entire second world war, by JUST air craft, and that took 450 of them.

Thats not true. Plenty of BB's were sunk by JUST aircraft. Pearl Harbor is a good example.

Pearl Harbor is a bad example. The battleships here would probably have some air support at the very least, an active (and powerful) air-defense screen and at least some ability to maneuver.

If you're going to bring one up, at least bring something better up, like Force Z, and even that isn't very applicable to the situation.

[Vejut]

Actually, the battery attacked by the ranger's batt. (Dora?) did quite well against the Heavy Cruisers and old battleships off the beach...

Ships at normandy: IIRC, will check for sure: Texas, Arkansas at Omaha, Tuscaloosa, Quincy (last 2 heavy cruisers), Nevada at Utah, at Sword, Gold, Juno: unknown...

262's where alright, but they HAD to use dive and zoom tactics--get suckered into a dogfight, you were worm food. They also had alot of trouble accelerating and decelerating. fairly good for anti-bomber work (their designed purpose), not so good as a fighter. Also, the bomb rack thing only put them back 3 weeks, IIRC (source: Mike Spick Luftwaffe Figher Aces) also had engine problems. 30mm's were Short ranged, bled speed in the turns like a hemophiliac, slow to flight speed (vulnerable on takeoff), slow strait decent needed to land (vulnerable there too...) also, very short legged.

[Vejut]

Yeild to Sea Skimmer...He obviously knows a good bit more about this than me (though I can dream, can't I?)

[Enforcer Talen]

Rommel in charge, knock 'em off the beach at first: don't let them get a foothold. Bring up the armor, if they breach at the beachhead, fortify the Bocage and issue as many Panzerschrecks as you can. Can't move people from Pas-de-Calais: you don't know that Patton's decoy is a decoy (looks real as far as intel can see...), so that hurts...More importantly, prep supply better ahead of time, and get the bloody Luftwaffe off their asses and into the air to contest the landing. Most of all, ignore orders from the Fuher about anything more than general objectives. (just did a short, badly researched paper on D-Day....anyone feel free to correct me where I'm wrong...)

I'd support most of that. . . the fuhrer thing in particular. needed to bring in reinforcements quickly.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Pearl Harbor is a bad example. The battleships here would probably have some air support at the very least, an active (and powerful) air-defense screen and at least some ability to maneuver.

If you're going to bring one up, at least bring something better up, like Force Z, and even that isn't very applicable to the situation.
______________

He said only one battleship had ever been sunk by JUST air. Thats not true and Peal Harbor was the first example that came to mind. Its still valid.
If he meant only 1 ship was sunk by air during an amphibious invasion then I missed that point.

I have no clue what Force Z is? What is that.

The Prince of Wales was sunk by the Japanese aircraft.
We sunk the Yamamoto (sp?) by air.

[Anarchist Bunny]

why did it fail

Because they had a very very good decoy base set up more north from where they invaded, the Germans thought thats were they were going to come from.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actually, the battery attacked by the ranger's batt. (Dora?) did quite well against the Heavy Cruisers and old battleships off the beach...

Ships at normandy: IIRC, will check for sure: Texas, Arkansas at Omaha, Tuscaloosa, Quincy (last 2 heavy cruisers), Nevada at Utah, at Sword, Gold, Juno: unknown...

The battery assaulted by Rangers didn't hit anything. There where only a handful of hits by shore batteries, and all where on minor vessels. Most where lucky to last twenty minutes in action.

17 cruisers and 5 battleships where on station on June 6th for support and another dozen odd where back in England that came up later.

[Vejut]

Bismark, mightiest of Battleships (until the Yamamoto and Iowa's....) was sunk by primitive (by WWII standards even...) Swordfish torpedo bombers....

Hell, pretty much the entire Pacific theatre was a CV show, with CA's and BB's just along for target practice, shore bombardment and flak...Well, except that Gambier bay thing...

[Sea Skimmer]

Pearl Harbor is a bad example. The battleships here would probably have some air support at the very least, an active (and powerful) air-defense screen and at least some ability to maneuver.

If you're going to bring one up, at least bring something better up, like Force Z, and even that isn't very applicable to the situation.
______________

He said only one battleship had ever been sunk by JUST air. Thats not true and Peal Harbor was the first example that came to mind. Its still valid.
If he meant only 1 ship was sunk by air during an amphibious invasion then I missed that point.

I have no clue what Force Z is? What is that.

The Prince of Wales was sunk by the Japanese aircraft.
We sunk the Yamamoto (sp?) by air.

Force Z consisted of the Repulse, Prince Of Whales and four later three destroyers. Both capital ships where sunk by air attack on Dec 10 1941

Yamato was sunk by air attack, as was her sister ship.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Where it will promptly be killed by naval gunfire. Even at Salarno, with hills and thick woods to hid in and constant air attacks keeping the warships busy, German armor stuffer heavily. And that was just against six inch cruisers

I think promptly killed is a bit of hyperbole. But I do agree with you the outcome is almost impossible to change. All the Germans can do is delay the allies at this point. Not win. The power of American industry really doomed the Germans and Japanese once we decided we were going to fight to the bitter end.

[Howedar]

Bismark, mightiest of Battleships (until the Yamamoto and Iowa's....)

Utter complete nonsense.

[Vejut]

Thank you for the correction: I just seem to recall reading in one book or another at the library that one of the Battleships got into a duel with one of the shore batteries...

Think the library needs to check it's books...(used something published in McClean, VA with no publisher listed, can give you title etc. if you wish...), was for presentation on D-Day to a College success Skills course (I.E. people who don't know much about it.) Mainly copied down the American major ships, Heavy Cruiser and BB...

In any case, I'll take your word for it...you seem to know what you are saying...

[Enforcer Talen]

true. but the germans could have made the defence a *lot* bloodier.

[TrailerParkJawa]

true. but the germans could have made the defence a *lot* bloodier.

I think everyone agrees with that point.

Force Z consisted of the Repulse, Prince Of Whales and four later three destroyers. Both capital ships where sunk by air attack on Dec 10 1941

Thanks, I listed the Prince of Wales already. I did not know about the Force Z name.

[Sea Skimmer]

Bismark, mightiest of Battleships (until the Yamamoto and Iowa's....) was sunk by primitive (by WWII standards even...) Swordfish torpedo bombers....

Hell, pretty much the entire Pacific theatre was a CV show, with CA's and BB's just along for target practice, shore bombardment and flak...Well, except that Gambier bay thing...

Mightiest? I think now, utterly obsolete and weak in all respects for the weight is a better description. And she wasn't sunk by torpedo bombers. Shellfire from Rodney and King Gorge the Fifth is sent Bismarck to the bottom. Torpedoes fired later weren't required, she had less then a foot of freeboard left when the first hit, and no bombers where present.

[Vejut]

I hate it when I get my facts wrong...just keep doing it today don't I?

[Gandalf]

Had it been at the time, I would probably have retreated to my strongholds, then fought back when the Allies advanced, all the time holding out until I could think of something.