What would happen if Hitler didn't invade Russia when he did

[Gandalf]

I figured he would have waited until he took Britain, and once the Atlantic was under control, go east. What do you think?


BTW This is post #100 for me.

[Enforcer Talen]

say he went for the middle east instead of russia. that fixes his oil problems, and then he could hit the underbelly of the soviets. . . where much of their oil was as well.

[Raptor 597]

I dunno, Enforcer. I think most of the oil was discovered right after WWII. I'm not sure though. besides, Polesti was the known and one of the largest oilfields at the time. It would of been awful tempting for hm too take it.

[Vympel]

This scenario presupposes a lot- a successful invasion of Great Britain, and control over the Atlantic despite the massive superiority of the British fleet, not to mention America.

Totally unrealistic.

[Vympel]

As for oil, Hitler had enough oil up until 1944 when the Rumanian oil fields got slammed .... he was obsessed with the stuff but they were never wanting for it up until those oil fields started getting bombed.

[Raptor 597]

This scenario presupposes a lot- a successful invasion of Great Britain, and control over the Atlantic despite the massive superiority of the British fleet, not to mention America.

Totally unrealistic.

Probably. Unless Britain conceded.Though not under Churchill, maybe Halifax. Atleast he was smart enough to know he cold not wage war. And only if the British Fleet ws handed over, which I doubt. I'm sure many if not all the Captains would scuttle their ships instead or maybe sail too Commonwealth possesions.

[Vympel]

This scenario presupposes a lot- a successful invasion of Great Britain, and control over the Atlantic despite the massive superiority of the British fleet, not to mention America.

Totally unrealistic.

Probably. Unless Britain conceded.Though not under Churchill, maybe Halifax. Atleast he was smart enough to know he cold not wage war. And only if the British Fleet ws handed over, which I doubt. I'm sure many if not all the Captains would scuttle their ships instead or maybe sail too Commonwealth possesions.

Germany couldn't invade. It was pure fantasy ... not enough amphibious forces to do the job, and the British fleet there to stop them ... though I wonder if the Germans had won the 'battle of Britain' what would've happened ...

[Raptor 597]

This scenario presupposes a lot- a successful invasion of Great Britain, and control over the Atlantic despite the massive superiority of the British fleet, not to mention America.

Totally unrealistic.

Probably. Unless Britain conceded.Though not under Churchill, maybe Halifax. Atleast he was smart enough to know he cold not wage war. And only if the British Fleet ws handed over, which I doubt. I'm sure many if not all the Captains would scuttle their ships instead or maybe sail too Commonwealth possesions.

Germany couldn't invade. It was pure fantasy ... not enough amphibious forces to do the job, and the British fleet there to stop them ... though I wonder if the Germans had won the 'battle of Britain' what would've happened ...

If tghey could of neutralized the RAF which may have been possible if Hitler din't start fir bombing London. They could of booted Churchill and sued for neogated peace. They had many things too bargin with. I dunno. Resilence picked up once the Luftwaffe started coming in en masse. They were alot, but Britain had speed and home court advantage. They satyed longer in the air=moreMe109s burning.

[Sea Skimmer]

Germany could never take the UK by storm. By the time it assembled sufficient shipping simply to move the troops, ignoring the need of assault craft, the British Army was to strong for a landing to be established. By the time Germany might manage to starve the UK into submission, even without America coming in, the Union would have launched its own attack on Germany.

[Sea Skimmer]

Probably. Unless Britain conceded.Though not under Churchill, maybe Halifax. Atleast he was smart enough to know he cold not wage war. And only if the British Fleet ws handed over, which I doubt. I'm sure many if not all the Captains would scuttle their ships instead or maybe sail too Commonwealth possesions.

Germany couldn't invade. It was pure fantasy ... not enough amphibious forces to do the job, and the British fleet there to stop them ... though I wonder if the Germans had won the 'battle of Britain' what would've happened ...

If tghey could of neutralized the RAF which may have been possible if Hitler din't start fir bombing London. They could of booted Churchill and sued for neogated peace. They had many things too bargin with. I dunno. Resilence picked up once the Luftwaffe started coming in en masse. They were alot, but Britain had speed and home court advantage. They satyed longer in the air=moreMe109s burning.

Worst comes to worst Fighter Command pulls back behind London, out of German fighter range. Under such condition its bases would be near immune to bombing attacks, and the vast majority of British territory and industrial capability still well protected. While the forward radar stations might be lost if the Germanys thought to reattack them, ground based observers could still provide sufficient warning for the new inner defense line.

The Germans could not realistically win.

[Raptor 597]

Germany couldn't invade. It was pure fantasy ... not enough amphibious forces to do the job, and the British fleet there to stop them ... though I wonder if the Germans had won the 'battle of Britain' what would've happened ...

If tghey could of neutralized the RAF which may have been possible if Hitler din't start fir bombing London. They could of booted Churchill and sued for neogated peace. They had many things too bargin with. I dunno. Resilence picked up once the Luftwaffe started coming in en masse. They were alot, but Britain had speed and home court advantage. They satyed longer in the air=moreMe109s burning.

Worst comes to worst Fighter Command pulls back behind London, out of German fighter range. Under such condition its bases would be near immune to bombing attacks, and the vast majority of British territory and industrial capability still well protected. While the forward radar stations might be lost if the Germanys thought to reattack them, ground based observers could still provide sufficient warning for the new inner defense line.

The Germans could not realistically win.

Exactly. I'd say screw this offensive in Britain and ship as much of the dispensable Luftwaffe too the Eatern Front. Hitler ould of had a chance at Moscow if he hadn't gone for Kiev.

[Sea Skimmer]

Taking Moscow does not kill the Union. It is an empty prize, and most of its function where duplicated elsewhere from the early 30's onward. To beat Russia you must quickly destroy its armies close to the boarder. In this cities and towns don't really matter, only the lines of communication and the location of the defenders do, though the three often are the same.

A mad dash for Moscow would be a very poor move. A series of vast encirclement was just what was needed. Hitler fucked many of these up, but the planning was sound.

The Prizes are the Ukraine, the Caucuses and the areas east of Moscow. Take all three and encircle the Russian hoards and what's left of the Union can be dealt with. Germany only held one for any real length of time and never reached the third. The Armies took heavy losses but too much escaped and too much simply couldn't be gotten.

Invading Russia at any point when it's under one ruler is a real bitch, kind of like winning a world war with about 10% of its manufacturing capability......

[Icehawk]

The way I see it, if Germany NEVER went after Russia, and all the resources and manpower that were put into that ridiculous offensive were instead focused on securing Europe, the War would have ended up more for Germany's favour.

With all the resources available from not going off to Russia, IMO they would have been AT LEAST able to keep the War in Europe going for about 2 more years, at which point they would have kept a vast technological advantage over the allies. With all the Jet Fighter craft making it far too dangerous for heavy American bombing as well as all the V2 Missiles and Type XXI UBoats which would have been created, deployed and improved upon over that time period.

However with the US as a dedicated ally for Britain, Germany would have likely still been beat out in the end due to shear resource and numerical superiority, but the entire war would have gone differently and would have no doubt lasted far longer IMO.

[Sea Skimmer]

The way I see it, if Germany NEVER went after Russia, and all the resources and manpower that were put into that ridiculous offensive were instead focused on securing Europe, the War would have ended up more for Germany's favour.

With all the resources available from not going off to Russia, IMO they would have been AT LEAST able to keep the War in Europe going for about 2 more years, at which point they would have kept a vast technological advantage over the allies. With all the Jet Fighter craft making it far too dangerous for heavy American bombing as well as all the V2 Missiles and Type XXI UBoats which would have been created, deployed and improved upon over that time period.

However with the US as a dedicated ally for Britain, Germany would have likely still been beat out in the end due to shear resource and numerical superiority, but the entire war would have gone differently and would have no doubt lasted far longer IMO.

Highly unlikely. The Russian hoards could not be held off for four years of sustained combat so close to home. One minor fuckup and 80% of the available oil supplies are in Russian hands, and no matter what there in bombing range.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Assuming the Russians stayed out of the war permanently. ( which would never have happened) But lest assume it did.

I dont think Germany could win, even if they developed jet fighters, because sooner or later the US develops them too. Along with Britain. So we have a few more years, and the fighting gets more high tech, but the end result is still the same. Unless Germany can bring a political settlement.

Actually, what would be scary, but unlikely, is if the war went on long enough for the Germans and Americans to both develop atomic bombs. But I think most if not all the real talent for developing the bomb left Germany anyway.

[Enforcer Talen]

ever read children's war? it's if ww2 ended in 1942 - the nazis hold europe and some of britian, and 50 yrs pass. tis interesting.

[Sea Skimmer]

Assuming the Russians stayed out of the war permanently. ( which would never have happened) But lest assume it did.

I dont think Germany could win, even if they developed jet fighters, because sooner or later the US develops them too. Along with Britain. So we have a few more years, and the fighting gets more high tech, but the end result is still the same. Unless Germany can bring a political settlement.

Actually, what would be scary, but unlikely, is if the war went on long enough for the Germans and Americans to both develop atomic bombs. But I think most if not all the real talent for developing the bomb left Germany anyway.

Germany would never get a bomb in time, and by 1947 the US would be building nine a month, and it still has the reason to do so.

http://pub82.ezboard.com/fhistorypoliti ... D=58.topic

Germany, with no pressing enemies would be unlikely to actually developed much in the way of jets or any of there own late war project. Historically Hitler canceled all research, which would not be quickly completed because he thought the war would be short, the war being short, or at least a much low intensity gives him all the more reason to do so and concentrate on existing designs.

[Icehawk]

I dont think Germany could win, even if they developed jet fighters, because sooner or later the US develops them too. Along with Britain. So we have a few more years, and the fighting gets more high tech, but the end result is still the same. Unless Germany can bring a political settlement.

The problem with this is that while the US and britain would develop them, Germany would always be the next step ahead. They always were in real history. The jets that America and Britain had working by Wars end were primitive or at best equal to the Me 262s and they would have been outmatched compared to the next wave of German jets that were just shy of being produced in real history.

As for Russia getting involved in the war without getting attacked. I don't see this as a problem due to the fact they were absolutely pathetic military wise before the Germans attacked them. It took them a year of heavy German assault against them before they could get their asses in gear and started doing things right. If they tried to do anything in the condition they were before the Germans attacked in real history, they wouldn't be much of threat.

In the end though, I do agree that Germany would likely still loose either way. Due to America out producing them and contantly refueling Britains troop supply and war machine. But they certainly would not be as quickly defeated as they were in real history.

[TrailerParkJawa]

If I recall correctly at the very wars end, Britain produced a jet fighter supierior to the Me-262. Let's wait and see what Mr. Sea Skimmer has to say. He is a walking Janes Book.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

If I recall correctly at the very wars end, Britain produced a jet fighter supierior to the Me-262. Let's wait and see what Mr. Sea Skimmer has to say. He is a walking Janes Book.

The Gloster Meteor. It was better but the Brits never used for fear it would be captured by the GErmans.

[TrailerParkJawa]

The Gloster Meteor. It was better but the Brits never used for fear it would be captured by the GErmans.

I fucking hate this mentality. I heard the same thing about the BAR in WWI.
Meanwhile troops get killed and a good weapon sits in a warehouse.

[Sea Skimmer]

I dont think Germany could win, even if they developed jet fighters, because sooner or later the US develops them too. Along with Britain. So we have a few more years, and the fighting gets more high tech, but the end result is still the same. Unless Germany can bring a political settlement.

The problem with this is that while the US and britain would develop them, Germany would always be the next step ahead. They always were in real history. The jets that America and Britain had working by Wars end were primitive or at best equal to the Me 262s and they would have been outmatched compared to the next wave of German jets that were just shy of being produced in real history.

As for Russia getting involved in the war without getting attacked. I don't see this as a problem due to the fact they were absolutely pathetic military wise before the Germans attacked them. It took them a year of heavy German assault against them before they could get their asses in gear and started doing things right. If they tried to do anything in the condition they were before the Germans attacked in real history, they wouldn't be much of threat.

In the end though, I do agree that Germany would likely still loose either way. Due to America out producing them and contantly refueling Britains troop supply and war machine. But they certainly would not be as quickly defeated as they were in real history.

You do realise that British Jet fighters beat the Me262 into service right? And the US had squadron's training by the end of the war?

Allied jets primitive compared to the Me262? Do prey tell how so, considering the P-80 was still in combat in 1953 and the Me262 with its nine hour engine life was obsolete in 1946. Feel free to explain what would make any theoretical German next generation fighter so good it could out match opponents that had a fifteen to one advantage in number.

Intresting, you consider the Russians to suck, and claime they needed a year ot get in gear. True perhapes, intresting also that 1942 was when Stalin planned to attack, the same time they would be ready with thousands of T-34's and KV-1's the Germans didn't even know about. Notice the rather huge historical defeats the Germans suffered in 1942 as well.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Gloster Meteor. It was better but the Brits never used for fear it would be captured by the GErmans.

I fucking hate this mentality. I heard the same thing about the BAR in WWI.
Meanwhile troops get killed and a good weapon sits in a warehouse.

By the time it entered service the only thing that was around to shoot at was V-1's, which is just what it did. Mid-late 1944 didn't offer much in the way of German aerial targets, and the Meteor lacked the range to fly into Germany to find what did present its self. The P-51 hoard did just fine.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Just to add to Sea Skimmers comments, the P-80 would have been ready for combat in 1946 had the war been more drawn out.

And suppose the Me-262 was still superior, it does not matter when compared to the sheer volume of aircraft the US could pump out.

Most of the Me-262 kills happened when they were landing anyway if I recall.
We had enough aircraft, to just follow them home, or get them on the runway.

[phongn]

With all the resources available from not going off to Russia, IMO they would have been AT LEAST able to keep the War in Europe going for about 2 more years, at which point they would have kept a vast technological advantage over the allies. With all the Jet Fighter craft making it far too dangerous for heavy American bombing as well as all the V2 Missiles and Type XXI UBoats which would have been created, deployed and improved upon over that time period.

Jet fighters are dangerous, but not incredibly so. Later generations of American bombers were outside the engagement envelope of virtually all of the Luftwaffe's projected aircraft, but until they get on the line there will probably be greater losses amongst the USAAF and RAF bomber crews. The later USAAF and RAF jet fighters were also more reliable to boot.

As for V2s, they weren't very useful. They were far too inaccurate and sucked resources that could be used elsewhere. Their development was also a dead-end in terms of rocket research: their direct modern descendant is the SCUD. As for their SAM programs, they were virtually useless. They were conically scanned and thus easily jammed, and secondly the radars would tend to 'drift' between targets within the cone. That was a problem only truly solved by 'pencil beams,' before that SAMs used nuclear warheads (ie Nike Hercules).

As for the Type XXI, the RN and USN had their measure - they had a program to equip their destroyers to defeat them before the end of the service. They were more dangerous than their predecessors but not incredibly so.