Are there any *good* arguments for affirmitive action...

[Shadow WarChief]

...because I haven't heard any.

As far as I see, the argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. For 2 years I've scored the internet to see if there were any *valid* arguments...and I still keep finding out that it's still quadraplegic.

So I ask you: Are there *ANY* valid arguments for affirimitve action?


EDIT: I'd just like to add that I'm making this poll now in part because a few days ago I heard that Jesse Jackson wanted affirimtive ation for GRADUATIONS too.

A certain number of minority students must graduate, even if they didn't actually earn it......... We may not have a WTF smiley, but I think this will do for now:

[Alyeska]

Well other then the fact that without afrimative action some places would be just as happy to keep hiring only white males, then maybe not.

Afirmative action, the concept is decent. In practice people screw it up big time. Some places just don't know how afirmative action really works and they end up hiring less qualified weaker employees out of fear of being called racist or sexist. Thing is afirmative actions only real goal is that in places that fall under the national average for certain work groups, when confronted with two canadites of equal skill requirement, hire the one who is a minority. Note, I said this is for places whos averages are BELOW the national levels. Also note in practice regional percentages should also be taken into account. Not every business in Montana can have 12% blacks when there are maybe 2% blacks in the entire state.

But in practice, the system gets royally fucked up by just about everyone and things are twisted every which way.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

All AA is just a legalised quota.

It makes it so that they don't hire minorities because they want to; it's because they have to.

[Alyeska]

All AA is just a legalised quota.

Sorta. It asks that you attempt to reach a regional or national percentage without sacraficing the integrity of the business. In practice about 99% of the employers out there can't figure it out and either go to one extreme or the other.

[Joe]

All AA is just a legalised quota.

Not exactly...affirmative action is not always the rigid system of quotas that we hear about. In theory, affirmative action simply would involve reasonable attempts to hire qualified members of minorities in fields where they are underrepresented. Many companies have instituted voluntary policies of affirmative action, and the Supreme Court has upheld their right to do so.

I still think that the government affirmative action is a bad thing, because it's been so wildly abused and is probably unconstitutional.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well other then the fact that without afrimative action some places would be just as happy to keep hiring only white males, then maybe not.

Afirmative action, the concept is decent. In practice people screw it up big time. Some places just don't know how afirmative action really works and they end up hiring less qualified weaker employees out of fear of being called racist or sexist. Thing is afirmative actions only real goal is that in places that fall under the national average for certain work groups, when confronted with two canadites of equal skill requirement, hire the one who is a minority. Note, I said this is for places whos averages are BELOW the national levels. Also note in practice regional percentages should also be taken into account. Not every business in Montana can have 12% blacks when there are maybe 2% blacks in the entire state.

But in practice, the system gets royally fucked up by just about everyone and things are twisted every which way.

The system is unfair. Do you honestly believe in this day and age that people are going to hire less qualified white workers over more qualified minority workers? That's basically what you're implying with "only white males." Quite simply, certain numbers of competent people get out of our education system irrelevant of race or gender, and they proceed to get jobs irrelevant of race or gender.

You can't make each business into a perfect microcosm of society, because it isn't. Any attempt to do so will fail, just like you admit Affirmative Action has in practice. The system can't be reformed and must be abolished.

[Stormbringer]

It's nothing less than legalized racism. And worse yet it encourages a victim mentality on the part of minorities. Some groups have built up a sicking sense of entitlement because of this; they want it all just because of the color of their skin.

[Alyeska]

Well other then the fact that without afrimative action some places would be just as happy to keep hiring only white males, then maybe not.

Afirmative action, the concept is decent. In practice people screw it up big time. Some places just don't know how afirmative action really works and they end up hiring less qualified weaker employees out of fear of being called racist or sexist. Thing is afirmative actions only real goal is that in places that fall under the national average for certain work groups, when confronted with two canadites of equal skill requirement, hire the one who is a minority. Note, I said this is for places whos averages are BELOW the national levels. Also note in practice regional percentages should also be taken into account. Not every business in Montana can have 12% blacks when there are maybe 2% blacks in the entire state.

But in practice, the system gets royally fucked up by just about everyone and things are twisted every which way.

The system is unfair. Do you honestly believe in this day and age that people are going to hire less qualified white workers over more qualified minority workers? That's basically what you're implying with "only white males." Quite simply, certain numbers of competent people get out of our education system irrelevant of race or gender, and they proceed to get jobs irrelevant of race or gender.

You can't make each business into a perfect microcosm of society, because it isn't. Any attempt to do so will/i] fail, just like you admit Affirmative Action has in practice. The system can't be reformed and must be abolished.

I said no such thing. What Afirmative Action asks for is that people hire minorities when equally qualified people compete. One of the biggest things is that people are not required to hire less qualified people. No one in their right mind does.

Infact, white people tend to be overly qualified more often then blacks. They have greater opertunity to higher education then most minorities. Thus you rarely get equally qualified minorities competeing against whites for the simple reason MOST (but not all) whites going for the good jobs have an edge in getting hired regardless of AA or not.

[Shadow WarChief]

I agree completely with Duchess of Zeon and Stormbringer. If you've been accepted for something because of your skin color, you don't deserve it.

Well other then the fact that without afrimative action some places would be just as happy to keep hiring only white males,

That problem has been solved DECADES ago. There's a reason there's 50 million agencies ready to jump on something because it's been accused of racism. Isn't funny how they don't do that with affirmitive action...

[Shadow WarChief]

I said no such thing. What Afirmative Action asks for is that people hire minorities when equally qualified people compete

And that lady's and gentlement is a textbook example of racism.

Concession accepted.

Infact, white people tend to be overly qualified more often then blacks.

So then hire the *qualified* people and completely disregard race. I mean Jesus fucking christ man. Martin Luther King got a bullet through the brain because he wanted to TEAR DOWN racial privilige and here you are trying to build them right back up again!

[Alyeska]

I said no such thing. What Afirmative Action asks for is that people hire minorities when equally qualified people compete

And that lady's and gentlement is a textbook example of racism.

Concession accepted.

Infact, white people tend to be overly qualified more often then blacks.

So then hire the *qualified* people and completely disregard race. I mean Jesus fucking christ man. Martin Luther King got a bullet through the brain because he wanted to TEAR DOWN racial privilige and here you are trying to build them right back up again!

Actually racism is the belief that one race is superior and the distrust and hate of another. This is a type of hiring practice that attempts to make things equal. You only "prefer" Blacks when they are equal to someone else AND when their group is grossly under represented.

Isn't it racism to take all the eligible employees and ONLY hire whites?

And as to just hiring the best people. Some people already do that and they only go for the highest qualified. Some times that means more whites (reasons already stated) but its hard to argue with hiring over qualified people.

[Joe]

"Racism" is the most abused, overused word in the English language.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I said no such thing. What Afirmative Action asks for is that people hire minorities when equally qualified people compete.

How often do you think equally qualified people compete? It's really quite rare; qualifications cover a whole range of aspects in regard to the possible employee and you'll rarely find two completely identical. It's hard to adjudge two "equal". One inferior and the other superior, yes, but equal? That's quite hard.

One of the biggest things is that people are not required to hire less qualified people. No one in their right mind does.

That's exactly what Affirmitive Action requires, however, in practice. It has never required anything else except for an effective quota system of stuffing in unqualified people due to their skin colour in practice. IE: Racism.

Infact, white people tend to be overly qualified more often then blacks.

So hire them. They have better qualifications. If black people want to get the jobs they'll have to work harder. The money for affirmative action could be spent on education, from the way you're talking.

They have greater opertunity to higher education then most minorities.

See above.

Thus you rarely get equally qualified minorities competeing against whites for the simple reason MOST (but not all) whites going for the good jobs have an edge in getting hired regardless of AA or not.

And this is the white person's problem? Hell no. They just made use of their available resources. And many black people do as well. If education is the problem, improve education for minorities! Instead you want to keep them stupid and then give them special privilages. That's about as racist as it gets. Your position reeks of "White Guilt".

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Technically, it's called White Middle-Class Liberal Guilt Syndrome.

[Shadow WarChief]

Actually racism is the belief that one race is superior and the distrust and hate of another.

So all of those southern laws in the 60's limited all types of black civil right weren't racist? I mean after all the *laws* never said that whites were superior to blacks. So according to YOUR definition of racism, the *laws* of the 60's in the south weren't racist.

What you stated was a type of racism. If someone says: "I think that blacks and whites should drink from different (equal in quality) water fountains , but I think they're equal" are they *not* racist?


Your definition needs retooling.

Let's merely add on that racism is also discrimination or prejudice based on race, because that's what it is.

A broader definition is simply this: The belief or practice of preferring or giving disadvantage to people based on race

Is that an acceptable definition Alyeska?

You only "prefer" Blacks when they are equal to someone else AND when their group is grossly under represented.

thank you again for pointing out why it's racist. You flat out said it: "you....prefer blacks..." How in the hell is prefering one race over another NOT racism?

Isn't it racism to take all the eligible employees and ONLY hire whites?

It's only racist if they were hired *because* they were white.

If they're hired because they're more qualified for the job than the other people they're competing against., where does race come into it at all?

I mean jesus christ on a pogo stick, can't you see the difference? If race never comes into the thinking process, only a person's capability, how in the hell can it be racist? And if you pick someone BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE, how in the hell is *not* racist?!

[Howedar]

Its racism, but its against the majority. That makes it okay.

[Yogi]

The protests against Affirmative Actions show that whites can dish it out, but they can't take it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

So you'd rather have an incompetent minority working for a company, simply hired because they need more minorities, than a competent white working and hired for their skills?

[Shadow WarChief]

The protests against Affirmative Actions show that whites can dish it out, but they can't take it.

It also shows that you are a blithering idiot for saying that all whites are racist.

[Joe]

So you'd rather have an incompetent minority working for a company, simply hired because they need more minorities, than a competent white working and hired for their skills?

That's a little distortionary. I don't think advocates of affirmative action actually advocate the hiring of unskilled minorities at the expense of white workers, for the most part; they advocate the hiring of qualified minorities in order to alleviate past inequities and increase diversity.

Of course it almost always turns out bad in practice, so its not worth it.

[Darth Wong]

Racism in hiring is dying, but racism in promoting is alive and well (look at how many tech companies have a thousand Asian and East European guys working in the ranks and a bunch of WASPS at the top). Affirmative action is designed to make sure that the mailroom is full of black guys.

[Shadow WarChief]

WASPS?

Qu'est-ce que c'est?

[Howedar]

White Anglo-Saxon Protestants

[Zaku-chan]

WASPS?

Qu'est-ce que c'est?

White
Anglo-
Saxon
Protestant

*and now that I'm a Padawan, a slight change of AV is in order *

[Stormbringer]

Racism in hiring is dying, but racism in promoting is alive and well (look at how many tech companies have a thousand Asian and East European guys working in the ranks and a bunch of WASPS at the top). Affirmative action is designed to make sure that the mailroom is full of black guys.

And do you have any idea how long most of those white guys worked to get to the top, at least those that did? 30-40m years. Just because racism is dying doesn't mean minorities with no experience will be CEO's immediatly. You're just now getting the first generation of minorities through college (at least on a wide scale level) through the system.

I agree the Old Boy's back scratching still goes on. But legalized racism (which affirmative action is) is not the answer. Demanding equal promotions for the equally qualified is.