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Should Turkey be a member of the EU? If so when should the talks begin?

This is a complex issue and I just don't want this to generate to a EU-bashing or Turkey bashing thread. There are a lot of issues to be considered, but I feel confident that my fellow SD.net'ers will be able to wade through them.

Before you answer consider these questions; is Turkey ready for the EU? Is the EU ready for Turkey? What are the issues that are impeeding this union? What does it mean for the future of the EU and the future of Turkey?

The EU keeps bitching to Turkey to get rid of their Death Penalty Statute....

I've been waiting for this thread..

Some quick points in disfavour:

How far should the E.U go? Is Turkey in Europe? If yes, why not Iraq, which borders it, and similar countries?

The E.U is a country, with no internal borders. There is a lot of fanatical muslim within the population, and it could easily become a gateway entrace from the middle east to the E.U for terrorists.

Army size and influence. That's straining democracy a bit.

A political problem: Their sheer population size would make them the country with most power in the union in a few years, something that greatly despleases countries like Germany and France.

I don't have a definite position on the matter. That's why I would enjoy an extended discussion of the subject, I'd like to clear my mind. As long as it doesn't turn into an E.U bashing thread.

Some points in favour:

It is a mostly functional democracy and no poorer than the other candidates.

It has been applying for the E.U for a lot of time and has done mostly all the reforms asked. It's a matter of decency, and of showing the rest of the muslims in the world that there is a way out of misery, extremism and dictatorship.

A step for an E.U Superpower (which is not necessarily good).

MKSheppard wrote:The EU keeps bitching to Turkey to get rid of their Death Penalty Statute....

Sheppard, please, no E.U bashing.

That's a minor nitpick. The fact is the Death penalty is BANNED from the Union. You may disagree, but obviously a candidate to the union must comply to its laws.

Colonel Olrik wrote: That's a minor nitpick. The fact is the Death penalty is BANNED from the Union. You may disagree, but obviously a candidate to the union must comply to its laws.

I love the Japs BTW, they just shrug their inscrutable beady little
eyes, and then go off and hang some murderer....and tell the rest
of the world to go to hell since no one can understand Japanese
Culture.

I refute the last part. If anyone in Europe wants the EU to be a federal body, then by allowing Turkey in it will never become one. Greece supports Turkey's bid to join the EU because it wants a more secure relationship with it's neighbour, but there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any Greek will accept being in a federal supra-nation that has a heavy influence from Turkey, any more than any American would accept a return to the Commonwealth.

They execute people sadistically (and I don't mean by hanging)...

When you're put on death row in Japland, you have no
set sentence - you can be executed in 5 minutes...or
wait 5 years.

Every time you hear a door bang open on your cellblock,
they might be coming for YOU...even at 3 in the morning...

So predictably, it's hell on the condemned.

Shep: That's amazing. But don't hijack the thread.

Crown wrote:I refute the last part. If anyone in Europe wants the EU to be a federal body, then by allowing Turkey in it will never become one. Greece supports Turkey's bid to join the EU because it wants a more secure relationship with it's neighbour, but there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any Greek will accept being in a federal supra-nation that has a heavy influence from Turkey, any more than any American would accept a return to the Commonwealth.

It will be a long time before ideas of a federal government come to reality, if ever. I agree that Turkey is a distabilizing factor (because of their sheer population power) . But, after all the problems between the two countries have been solved, after a more complete secularization of Turkey, The greeks would have much less reason to fear them..

Crown wrote:I refute the last part. If anyone in Europe wants the EU to be a federal body, then by allowing Turkey in it will never become one. Greece supports Turkey's bid to join the EU because it wants a more secure relationship with it's neighbour, but there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any Greek will accept being in a federal supra-nation that has a heavy influence from Turkey, any more than any American would accept a return to the Commonwealth.

What do you think personally, vre?

I think that they're not part of Europe. I also think that when I become dictator of greece my glorious armies are going to take Constantinople back

Vympel wrote:I think that they're not part of Europe. I also think that when I become dictator of greece my glorious armies are going to take Constantinople back

H MEGALI IDEA

Crown wrote:

Vympel wrote:I think that they're not part of Europe. I also think that when I become dictator of greece my glorious armies are going to take Constantinople back

H MEGALI IDEA

Bloody British.

Actually though- Medieval: Total War is best for that- the Turks didn't even get NEAR Constantiniple- my glorious hordes of Kataphraktoi swept them aside like so much paper in the wind- I own all of Russia and all of the Middle East up to Egypt right now

Hmm, well back in my civilasation days the world was my oiseter, no stop hijacking

Crown wrote:Hmm, well back in my civilasation days the world was my oiseter, no stop hijacking

Ah but in civ you don't get the pleasure of 200 Byzantine Infantry slicing through 10 times their number of Turkish peasants !

Didn't Turkey have a massive problem with inflation, and there are about 500,000 Turkish Lira to the US dollar? Could joining the EU do something to fix that?

I don't know why Turkey isn't in the EU. Turkey are harmless creatures, and their meat is high in protien and other vitamins.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Didn't Turkey have a massive problem with inflation, and there are about 500,000 Turkish Lira to the US dollar? Could joining the EU do something to fix that?

I don't know why Turkey isn't in the EU. Turkey are harmless creatures, and their meat is high in protien and other vitamins.

When I was there in 1990 a burger and fries was a couple of thousand Lira. I think a cab ride was usually in the thousands of Lira. The 100 Lira notes weren't worth much.

Istanbul is a cool.

If I were suddenly dictator of the EU Then yes they'd be in by the end of the day.

NecronLord wrote:If I were suddenly dictator of the EU Then yes they'd be in by the end of the day.

Yes, but unfortanely the EU doesn't want too be overthrown and ruled by the Turks.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:Hmm, well back in my civilasation days the world was my oiseter, no stop hijacking

Ah but in civ you don't get the pleasure of 200 Byzantine Infantry slicing through 10 times their number of Turkish peasants !

Turks are a wee bit better armed these days. *Points to hundreds of F-16's and tanks*

Colonel Olrik wrote: It will be a long time before ideas of a federal government come to reality, if ever. I agree that Turkey is a distabilizing factor (because of their sheer population power) . But, after all the problems between the two countries have been solved, after a more complete secularization of Turkey, The greeks would have much less reason to fear them..

The Greeks don't fear the Turks. The Greeks loathe the Turks in a measure beyond hate and fear combined and magnified a thousand times in measure.

Honestly the Greeks are all half Turk anyway and it's rather silly of them to do it; their glory days were subsumed by those of Rome and their anger over the fall of Constantinople simply shows such good Romans they began.

But those are the problems of centuries, and I don't think your body can solve them. Indeed, I think over events may overtake them.

they can join if they completely abolish the death penalty, get their problems with the kurds solved (no, not by killing them off) and get all the other issius set up which are necessary to join the eu. every country can join then in my oppinion. even the usa, as long as they stick to the rules.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Honestly the Greeks are all half Turk anyway and it's rather silly of them to do it; their glory days were subsumed by those of Rome and their anger over the fall of Constantinople simply shows such good Romans they began.

*Greek subsumed by hatred mode*

Don't ever call me half-Turk.

*rational mode*

In all honesty I think the level of hatred is quite low nowadays.

Vympel wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Honestly the Greeks are all half Turk anyway and it's rather silly of them to do it; their glory days were subsumed by those of Rome and their anger over the fall of Constantinople simply shows such good Romans they began.

*Greek subsumed by hatred mode*

Don't ever call me half-Turk.

*rational mode*

In all honesty I think the level of hatred is quite low nowadays.

Sooo, you wouldn't mind it if Turkey got full control over Cyprus?

Turkey should not be admitted to the EU until an overwhelming majority of the Turkish populations accepts and understands the need for modern states to be secular. Until that happens, they're just too much of a security risk to be brought inside the EU common border.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Honestly the Greeks are all half Turk anyway and it's rather silly of them to do it; their glory days were subsumed by those of Rome and their anger over the fall of Constantinople simply shows such good Romans they began.

Don't ever say that again.