1984 vs. Brave New World

[Yogi]

In a scientific exeriment, q decides to create two alternate Earths with two diffrent governments. One of them is the "1984" style of government, while the other is the "Brave New World" style of government. Which government lasts the longest before being finally overthrown in revolution.

If neither of them are going to be overthrown in the forseeable (for a Q) future, he tosses in James Bond, Solid Snake, Batman, and Ranma Satome in each universe and tells them to overthrow the government. Then which one lasts the longest?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ingsoc doubleplus good.

[Master of Ossus]

Brave New World government lasts longer. The 1984 government relies on warfare to destroy production. The Brave New World government relies on nothing.

[Shinova]

In a scientific exeriment, q decides to create two alternate Earths with two diffrent governments. One of them is the "1984" style of government, while the other is the "Brave New World" style of government. Which government lasts the longest before being finally overthrown in revolution.

If neither of them are going to be overthrown in the forseeable (for a Q) future, he tosses in James Bond, Solid Snake, Batman, and Ranma Satome in each universe and tells them to overthrow the government. Then which one lasts the longest?

Note: I've only read Brave New World.


From what I've heard about 1984, the guys you listed will have a harder time overthrowing Huxley's gov, since all the citizens have been conditioned to their roles ever since their eggs were first fertilized.

[MKSheppard]

From what I've heard about 1984, the guys you listed will have a harder time overthrowing Huxley's gov, since all the citizens have been conditioned to their roles ever since their eggs were first fertilized.

That's nothing. 1984 is more terrifying.

[Master of Ossus]

From what I've heard about 1984, the guys you listed will have a harder time overthrowing Huxley's gov, since all the citizens have been conditioned to their roles ever since their eggs were first fertilized.

That's nothing. 1984 is more terrifying.

True, but people in Brave New World are incapable of resisting their conditioning. They have so many rebels in 1984 that an entire branch of the government (a full quarter, in Oceania) is dedicated to combating rebellion. In Brave New World, no such thing is necessary. Additionally, the proletariat in 1984 has the potential to revolt, if sparked and led. In Brave New World, their lower castes CANNOT rebel, and CANNOT be led by members of the upper class, even if they attempt to create a revolt.

[Jason von Evil]

Don't worry, give it a few years and our government will turn '84.

[Shinova]

From what I've heard about 1984, the guys you listed will have a harder time overthrowing Huxley's gov, since all the citizens have been conditioned to their roles ever since their eggs were first fertilized.

That's nothing. 1984 is more terrifying.

True, but people in Brave New World are incapable of resisting their conditioning. They have so many rebels in 1984 that an entire branch of the government (a full quarter, in Oceania) is dedicated to combating rebellion. In Brave New World, no such thing is necessary. Additionally, the proletariat in 1984 has the potential to revolt, if sparked and led. In Brave New World, their lower castes CANNOT rebel, and CANNOT be led by members of the upper class, even if they attempt to create a revolt.

To support Ossus, all this is done through extremely extensive eugenics. And added to that, there's that thing called hypnopaeia (sp?).

[Shinova]

Don't worry, give it a few years and our government will turn '84.

you should be afraid that it'll turn into BNW. In 84, we at least can desire freedom. But in BNW, we won't even be able to understand the concept.

[HemlockGrey]

Toss in the gov't from A Clockwork Orange. How long does it last?

[Colonel Olrik]

To support Ossus, all this is done through extremely extensive eugenics. And added to that, there's that thing called hypnopaeia (sp?).

Yes, that was sci-fi at the time, an attempt by Huxley to create different levels of intelligence. He did that by giving the fetus more or less oxigen during the development, which affected more or less their brain.

Obviously, that method would not be utilized in real life. We would simply use genetic manipulation. Huxley is before that time, and he didn't foresee the huge developments in the field (non-existant, at the time).

To answer the question, BNW is impossible to overthrow. It's a stagnated society condemned to extintion. There can be no rebelion, since having kids is forbidden and people are mentally purged even before "birth".

Maybe if there were more of the remaining savages, or if there is a normal advanced society hidden somewhere.

[une]

True, but people in Brave New World are incapable of resisting their conditioning. They have so many rebels in 1984 that an entire branch of the government (a full quarter, in Oceania) is dedicated to combating rebellion. In Brave New World, no such thing is necessary. Additionally, the proletariat in 1984 has the potential to revolt, if sparked and led. In Brave New World, their lower castes CANNOT rebel, and CANNOT be led by members of the upper class, even if they attempt to create a revolt.

I have to disagree, there were no active rebels in 1984. There were dissenting opinions, and that's what the thought police, newspeak, etc were all there to combat.

The only person actively rebelling against the system in 1984 was Julia, and she was completely complacent within the government of Oceana.

[Ted]

There were no rebels whatsoever in BNW.

In BNW, everybody is just mindless automotons, pure production line shit.

[Colonel Olrik]

There were no rebels whatsoever in BNW.

In BNW, everybody is just mindless automotons, pure production line shit.

Except the Alpha. It's good to be a alpha.

[Master of Ossus]

There were no rebels whatsoever in BNW.

In BNW, everybody is just mindless automotons, pure production line shit.

Except the Alpha. It's good to be a alpha.

Alphas and Betas have some ability to decide what to do, however none of them wish to revolt. They are all happy the way they are, and actually have a stake in preventing revolts because they do not wish to lose their privileges.

[Colonel Olrik]

Alphas and Betas have some ability to decide what to do, however none of them wish to revolt. They are all happy the way they are, and actually have a stake in preventing revolts because they do not wish to lose their privileges.

A most perfect example of an evolutional dead end.

I just remembered. It's actually possible to subvert the society. The Savage tried to do so. Put the superheros destroying the supply lines of the drugs and all the lower classes would go out of control.

[Master of Ossus]

Alphas and Betas have some ability to decide what to do, however none of them wish to revolt. They are all happy the way they are, and actually have a stake in preventing revolts because they do not wish to lose their privileges.

A most perfect example of an evolutional dead end.

I just remembered. It's actually possible to subvert the society. The Savage tried to do so. Put the superheros destroying the supply lines of the drugs and all the lower classes would go out of control.

Not really, during the resultant tumult, the lower-caste members actually tried to prevent the Savage from harming their society. They had no concept of what John was fighting for, and probably would not like it if they did understand. They, like all members of society in the BNW, want the world to continue to exist as it does, so they can be happy.

[Colonel Olrik]

Not really, during the resultant tumult, the lower-caste members actually tried to prevent the Savage from harming their society. They had no concept of what John was fighting for, and probably would not like it if they did understand. They, like all members of society in the BNW, want the world to continue to exist as it does, so they can be happy.

If the drug supply got constantly destroyed by the superheros (John didn't stand a chance, poor man), the government would face dark times. The inferior classes would go out of control, but the alphas surely have mechanisms to stop them.

You're right, The society is beyond hope. They're just drones. Somebody BDZ the abominations, please.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Did you know that Huxley wrote to Orwell regarding his opinion of 1984?

He basically just blathered on about how he would have written the book.

[Master of Ossus]

Did you know that Huxley wrote to Orwell regarding his opinion of 1984?

He basically just blathered on about how he would have written the book.

BNW was written long before 1984.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, and years later he pretty much told Orwell that he should have written 1984 to be just like BNW.

[Shinova]

I believe Huxley and Orwell were both making political statements when they wrote their book. Thus, I'm sure they would've eventually come to some kind of argument over whose vision is the correct one.

[Pablo Sanchez]

It depends on how far along the Orwellian government is. If they can hold on long enough to complete the Newspeak program, all hope is lost. If the Superheroes get there in time to lead the proles, there is a twinge of possibility.

On the other hand, the only thing that can stop the BNW government is a stop in the flow of Soma. All their intellectuals are complacently locked away in Iceland, and everyone else is happy happy happy... until the flow of drugs stops.

[Colonel Olrik]

On the other hand, the only thing that can stop the BNW government is a stop in the flow of Soma. All their intellectuals are complacently locked away in Iceland, and everyone else is happy happy happy... until the flow of drugs stops.

I thought of that, but even then the society could not improve. The lower classes are mentally retarded and conditioned, they lack the skill/desire to do a revolution, or to be led to one. The government would regain control of them, eventually. They want to be controled. There's no way out.

[Ted]

However, if in the lack of drug rage, they destroy all the birthing facilities, then BNW would be fucked up majorly.