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England has very strict gun laws, and the bad guys still get guns

Thursday, December 19, 2002; 10:31 AM

By Michael Holden

LONDON (Reuters) - London gangsters are arming themselves with handguns modeled on the famous Walther PPK used by James Bond as the British capital experiences a worrying surge in gun crime, the city's police chief said on Thursday.

"There is no 'street cred' in a sawn-off shotgun for the majority of today's armed criminals," London police Commissioner Sir John Stevens told reporters.

"Handguns, particularly those modeled on the James Bond Walther PPK -- real and replica -- are the weapons of choice for today's modern gunman."

Stevens was speaking out as gun crime rockets in the capital with gangsters more readily shooting rivals and the police. Most shootings are related to drug-fueled turf wars between Jamaican-based "Yardies" and, increasingly in some areas, Turkish and Kurdish gangs.

Police say there have been 200 shootings in the last eight months, compared to 171 in the same period last year, with 22 murders. Last year there were 38 fatal shootings compared to just 19 in 1992. Officers are now seizing an average of 144 guns every month.

As if to highlight Stevens' fears, two unarmed policemen were shot at in the early hours of Thursday as they pursued a suspect in the north London district of Islington, where Prime Minister Tony Blair used to live.

Two weeks ago in the same area, a policeman was shot in the stomach following a chase and is still in hospital. That same day four plain-clothes officers were shot at when they approached two suspected drug dealers.

"The threat to officers must not be underestimated. We have identified some worrying trends in gun-crime in London that are giving us serious cause for concern -- both the threat to the public and our own officers," Stevens said.

Last month mothers grieving over children killed in the drug-fueled wars on the capital's streets marched to Blair's Downing Street residence to demand tougher action.

Stevens said he hoped to have another 40 specialist armed officers by next year along with another two armed response units. Currently only about seven percent of London's police can carry a gun at any one time.

Despite his concern at the rise in shootings, Stevens said he did not envisage the majority of Britain's unarmed "bobbies on the beat" abandoning their famed gun-free image.

"God willing it won't happen as long as I'm commissioner," he told Reuters in June.

yes, right, that´s what happens when you ban guns. that´s why the usa doesnt have any problems with gun related killings.

you see, the reason why guns should be made illegal is not because the gangsters/criminals have guns, because they´ll get guns anyway. the reason why guns should be banned are:

- when the police finds a gun on somebody it can be taken away.

- if guns are generally illegal it´l less likely that criminals arm themselves with more powerfull guns such as uzis or stuff like that because a normal gun is enough to rob the lical gasstation

- a lot of crimes happen in the effect of emotion. a perfectly normal, not criminal, guy finds his wife being fucked by some other guy. if he´s got a gun at home he´ll shoot the other guy and maybe his wife in the head and then goes to prison. if he hasnt got a gun, he´ll might go for the kitchen knife, but that´s a lot less leathal.

- if guns are illegal, it´s harder for criminals to get one. esspecially first time criminals who dont have a gun yet have to go through the trouble of getting one on an illegal way so the inhibition level is going to be higher.

- and last but not least there are always idiots who dont lock their guns away, other people e.g. kids find the unsecured gun, play with it and shoot their own brains out.

policemen should have guns though.

It's the fucking immigrants. We don't do anywhere near enough background checking on the people that come into this country and now we have all sorts of gangs going around. It's bad enough with domestic gun crime but now we're importing other peoples as well! It's a complete joke!

The way things are going we're going to end up having to deploy the army in london just to stop the fucking gang wars. I mean a few months ago they had a shootout outside a fucking POLICE STATION! They really have a lot of fear for our police force obviously.

salm wrote:you see, the reason why guns should be made illegal is not because the gangsters/criminals have guns, because they´ll get guns anyway. the reason why guns should be banned are:

Yeah, and because guns are bad, mmm-kay?

Crazy_Vasey wrote:It's the fucking immigrants. We don't do anywhere near enough background checking on the people that come into this country and now we have all sorts of gangs going around. It's bad enough with domestic gun crime but now we're importing other peoples as well! It's a complete joke!

i hope you´re being sarcastic! if not, get your head chopped off in the london tower, racist!

The way things are going we're going to end up having to deploy the army in london just to stop the fucking gang wars. I mean a few months ago they had a shootout outside a fucking POLICE STATION! They really have a lot of fear for our police force obviously.

[/quote]
sure, and that´s of course because they´re from a certain place in the world.

Galvatron wrote:

salm wrote:you see, the reason why guns should be made illegal is not because the gangsters/criminals have guns, because they´ll get guns anyway. the reason why guns should be banned are:

Yeah, and because guns are bad, mmm-kay?

privatly owned guns are, yes, unless they´re owned by professional hunters and are non automatic, special hunting rifles. some other, very few other reasons may be a valid reason to own a gun.

salm wrote:

Crazy_Vasey wrote:It's the fucking immigrants. We don't do anywhere near enough background checking on the people that come into this country and now we have all sorts of gangs going around. It's bad enough with domestic gun crime but now we're importing other peoples as well! It's a complete joke!

i hope you´re being sarcastic! if not, get your head chopped off in the london tower, racist!

Salm, you did notice how the guys blasting away at each other are Jamacian and Turkish/Kurdish? Last time I checked neither were English. So they have to be immigrants. Read the post before you open your mouth next time.

[quote[
i hope you´re being sarcastic! if not, get your head chopped off in the london tower, racist!
[/quote]

Oh fuck you. You think we shouldn't make sure that we're not letting criminals in? We're sure as fuck not doing an adequate job of it now and it's showing pretty badly. Did you miss the parts in the article about yardie gangs? We have more than enough of our own criminals already without importing other countries, unless of course you fail to realise the massive problem of organised crime in eastern europe which is almost certain to migrate over to the richer areas of europe now that many of those nations have joined the EU, especially with out very lax immigration laws which amount to an open gate at the best of times. The media exaggeration of an already bad situation doesn't help either engendering a great deal of bitterness on the part of many British citizens.

sure, and that´s of course because they´re from a certain place in the world.

No it's because they are criminal scum. Every country has them and we have plenty of our own without letting more in. Note that with the massive rise in illegal immigration into this country crime rates have risen as well. It's not exactly fucking rocket science to realise that our background checks are inadequate. We're letting in people who should not be let in no matter what.

salm wrote:you see, the reason why guns should be made illegal is not because the gangsters/criminals have guns, because they´ll get guns anyway. the reason why guns should be banned are:

- if guns are generally illegal it´l less likely that criminals arm themselves with more powerfull guns such as uzis or stuff like that because a normal gun is enough to rob the lical gasstation

The prefered weapon of the common criminal perp is the handgun or shotgun. That's what's used in almost all robberies. Automatic weapons such as Uzis are generally used by criminals in gang related activities such as "hits" and drive-by shootings.

- a lot of crimes happen in the effect of emotion. a perfectly normal, not criminal, guy finds his wife being fucked by some other guy. if he´s got a gun at home he´ll shoot the other guy and maybe his wife in the head and then goes to prison. if he hasnt got a gun, he´ll might go for the kitchen knife, but that´s a lot less leathal.

And if one should come home to find his wife being fucked or raped, that perp will be havin' some questions to answer to say the least. If he's raping my wife then he deserves to have his brains splatted on my walls. The fact that I'll go to jail for this is an indication of how fucked up the laws are.

- if guns are illegal, it´s harder for criminals to get one. esspecially first time criminals who dont have a gun yet have to go through the trouble of getting one on an illegal way so the inhibition level is going to be higher.

Doubtful. It's far easier to obtain a firearm illegally than legally. To get a gun legally you need to pass some tests, fill out a bunch of paperwork and get a certificate before you can buy a gun. I can walk out of my house and come home with an illegal gun in under an hour.

- and last but not least there are always idiots who dont lock their guns away, other people e.g. kids find the unsecured gun, play with it and shoot their own brains out.

That's an education and responsibility problem. People who do that a)should not own guns, or b) should not have kids, and c) should not let kids into their homes.

And here's another article for you about England's high crime rate.

England has highest Crime rate among the World's leading economies

Excerpt from Article:

England and Wales have the highest crime rate among the world's leading economies, according to a new report by the United Nations.

The survey, which is likely to prove embarrassing to David Blunkett, the Home Secretary. shows that people are more likely to be mugged, burgled, robbed or assaulted here than in America, Germany, Russia, South Africa or any other of the world's 20 largest nations. Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.

Crazy_Vasey wrote:[quote[
i hope you´re being sarcastic! if not, get your head chopped off in the london tower, racist!

Oh fuck you. You think we shouldn't make sure that we're not letting criminals in? We're sure as fuck not doing an adequate job of it now and it's showing pretty badly. Did you miss the parts in the article about yardie gangs? We have more than enough of our own criminals already without importing other countries, unless of course you fail to realise the massive problem of organised crime in eastern europe which is almost certain to migrate over to the richer areas of europe now that many of those nations have joined the EU, especially with out very lax immigration laws which amount to an open gate at the best of times. The media exaggeration of an already bad situation doesn't help either engendering a great deal of bitterness on the part of many British citizens.

sure, and that´s of course because they´re from a certain place in the world.

No it's because they are criminal scum. Every country has them and we have plenty of our own without letting more in. Note that with the massive rise in illegal immigration into this country crime rates have risen as well. It's not exactly fucking rocket science to realise that our background checks are inadequate. We're letting in people who should not be let in no matter what.[/quote]


alright then, in your first post it looks like you´re saying that it´s only the immigrants. if you say "it´s the fucking immigrants!" that´s likely to happen. if you meant the criminal scum which a part of the immigrants surely are, that´s ok.

salm wrote:privatly owned guns are, yes, unless they´re owned by professional hunters and are non automatic, special hunting rifles. some other, very few other reasons may be a valid reason to own a gun.

I own a gun. It's a beautifully crafted .40S&W Sig Sauer P226.



My reasons for owning it are as follows...

1) It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have one.
2) Filling a would-be rapist/murderer/home-invader full of some well-deserved bullet holes would do my heart good.
3) They're fun to shoot.

For the record, I'm an atheist and a libertarian.

aerius wrote:

salm wrote:you see, the reason why guns should be made illegal is not because the gangsters/criminals have guns, because they´ll get guns anyway. the reason why guns should be banned are:

- if guns are generally illegal it´l less likely that criminals arm themselves with more powerfull guns such as uzis or stuff like that because a normal gun is enough to rob the lical gasstation

The prefered weapon of the common criminal perp is the handgun or shotgun. That's what's used in almost all robberies. Automatic weapons such as Uzis are generally used by criminals in gang related activities such as "hits" and drive-by shootings.

yes, the common one, and the uncommon ones can be ignored?

- a lot of crimes happen in the effect of emotion. a perfectly normal, not criminal, guy finds his wife being fucked by some other guy. if he´s got a gun at home he´ll shoot the other guy and maybe his wife in the head and then goes to prison. if he hasnt got a gun, he´ll might go for the kitchen knife, but that´s a lot less leathal.

And if one should come home to find his wife being fucked or raped,
[/quote]
why are you bringing up rape?

that perp will be havin' some questions to answer to say the least.

he dosnt need a gun to get answers.

If he's raping my wife then he deserves to have his brains splatted on my walls.

wrong! he deserves to go to prison and get butt raped by large inmates for a couple of decades

The fact that I'll go to jail for this is an indication of how fucked up the laws are.

bullshit! you kill somebody, you go to prison. that easy.

- if guns are illegal, it´s harder for criminals to get one. esspecially first time criminals who dont have a gun yet have to go through the trouble of getting one on an illegal way so the inhibition level is going to be higher.

Doubtful. It's far easier to obtain a firearm illegally than legally. To get a gun legally you need to pass some tests, fill out a bunch of paperwork and get a certificate before you can buy a gun. I can walk out of my house and come home with an illegal gun in under an hour.
[/quote]
maybe.
if guns are illegal then less are around. as said above the inhibition level of owning or even using a gun illegally or legally is higher. compare the us to most places in europe. guns are not a fundamental right in the constitutions here. the image most people in europe have of guns is that they´re something evil. same with the uzis and similar guns. a normal gangster in a place where guns are legal is more likely to have an additional uzi than somewhere where guns are illegal. also a matter of inhibition level.

- and last but not least there are always idiots who dont lock their guns away, other people e.g. kids find the unsecured gun, play with it and shoot their own brains out.

That's an education and responsibility problem. People who do that a)should not own guns, or b) should not have kids, and c) should not let kids into their homes.[/quote]

aha, and how doe you suggest to solve that problem. that´s pretty hard since you usually find out that someone was irresponsible AFTER an accident like that has occured.

Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.

This comes to me as a surprise, considering that the Finnish Ministry of Justice and US Department of State say that our crime rate is still low by international standards. However, after the breakup of Soviet Union we have been flooded with Estonian and Russian criminals, and crime rates have increased.

Whatever...

It's the society that causes problems, not guns. You don't combat crime with strict gun control. For example, in Switzerland almost every household has an assault rifle and their crime rates are low.

Oberleutnant wrote:

Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.

This comes to me as a surprise, considering that the Finnish Ministry of Justice and US Department of State say that our crime rate is still low by international standards. After the breakup of Soviet Union, we have been flooded with Estonian and Russian criminals. Oh, whatever...

It's the society that causes problems, not guns. You don't combat crime with strict gun control. For example, in Switzerland almost every household has an assault rifle and their crime rates are low.

that´s true! swizerland has a crapload of guns and a low crime rate. but that´s probably because every single one of them went through army training, which makes sure that they know how to handle guns (lock them away when not used).
besides the crapload of guns they also have a crapload of money. ther´s nothing like the ghettho of bern.
but since it doesnt seem possible to change south central la into south central bern a gun ban seems a quicker/better solution.
it´s also harder to carry an assault rifle covered than a handgun or an uzi.

We need a Slashdot-type rating system. Since we don't, I nominate the status of -1: Flamebait to this thread. As for Galvatron, ROCK ON!!!

EDIT: Sorry laddies, my typing is shit today.

I'm sure that England's strict gun laws have a part in the incresing crime rate. Unfortunately, nobody notices the link, so they're trying ot fight it with even stricter gun laws.

I'm not seeing how arming the civilian populace would do anything to deal with the problem of armed crime. Gang wars are bad enough, we don't need random wannabe action heroes pitching in.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:I'm sure that England's strict gun laws have a part in the incresing crime rate. Unfortunately, nobody notices the link, so they're trying ot fight it with even stricter gun laws.

Maybe they don't, and are carving themselves into a Downward Spiral™; or maybe they DO, and that's their way of making sure the guvmint stays in power. Fucking Socialistas.

Crazy_Vasey wrote:I'm not seeing how arming the civilian populace would do anything to deal with the problem of armed crime. Gang wars are bad enough, we don't need random wannabe action heroes pitching in.

So, because I own a gun and am willing to use it to defend my life, I'm a vigilante? Cool!

The problem in england regarding guns is that all the police have is cs gass and a big stick. the 1st time i saw an english cop i near pissed myself laughing. Here in Belfast even the lowest of trafic cops has a gun. Fair enough i am expecting a lot of ppl to reply with mentions of the troubles. But only thr paramilitaries have the guns, any other pety criminl doesn't have guns.

Crazy_Vasey wrote:I'm not seeing how arming the civilian populace would do anything to deal with the problem of armed crime. Gang wars are bad enough, we don't need random wannabe action heroes pitching in.

So you think it’' a bad thing if a citizen can draw a gun and kill the person attacking them? Mind you, more then 90% of cases of guns being drawn in self defense result in no shots being fire. The armed populace, of America at least, is not nearly as blood thirsty as may wish to portray it.

Fact is tens of thousands of crimes are prevented, mostly without shots being fired every year by gun owners. I'm not seeing the massive problume you seem to be soeaking of.

Germany has some very strict gun laws, too.
And we don't have problems with all that many gun related crimes.
In the year 2001, in 11,270 cases people threatened with a gun, and in 5416 cases the weapons have been used. And of those 5416 cases, a third are damage to property. Another third was criminal assault. And only about 300 were cases in which the shooting was used in a murder or manslaughter.

Which means I feel pretty safe not to be threatened ever by a gun on a German street...

I don't really see that this has anything to do with banning private gun ownership. I am against gun bans, but England's rising gun crime rate has nothing to do with it.

Sea Skimmer wrote:So you think it’' a bad thing if a citizen can draw a gun and kill the person attacking them? Mind you, more then 90% of cases of guns being drawn in self defense result in no shots being fire. The armed populace, of America at least, is not nearly as blood thirsty as may wish to portray it.
.

A huge proportion of gun crime seems to be coming from organised gangs that have made their way into this country. Most gun crime seems to be directed towards either police officers or in gang wars. How would armed civilians help?

For anecdotal evidence, where I live the gangs simply do not exist and there is virtually no gun crime. I cannot remember the last time I heard of any guns being used in a crime. Not that there isn't plenty of crime around here, we have one of the highest youth crime rates in the country and probably one of the most useless police forces so it's not that I live in a particularly nice area.

Gun control has had little impact on the growing crime rates, there are deeper causes for it than gun control. Massive and poorly controlled immigration combined with a general breakdown in law and order would lead to a growing crime rate no matter what the gun control situation was. Blame the increasingly incompetent justice system because it is at fault, not gun control.