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Here's my rant:

I've been noticing on the boards and in real life, that after nearly every mention of the shittiness of Christianity, every moderate or liberal Christian chimes in to remind us that only fundies are crazy, and at least one person sees fit to accuse atheists of being just as irrational as fundies.
Since when are nice Christians off-limits for criticism? I realize that they don't withhold condoms, go on crusades, burn Jews, or sell Bibles door-to-door, but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.
I'm sick of people thinking that just because they're respectful with their beliefs, their beliefs are any more respectable.
So, to Christians everywhere, know that I think you're bad people. And no, I don't have to qualify that assertion, because you know very well of the various reasons that your belief systems are stupid bullshit. You simply choose to ignore it. You pretend that there's some virtue in irrationality.
I'm not, of course, advocating any action, physical or otherwise, against Chritians, I'm just saying that I'm sick of seeing Christians hide behind their wall of piety, assuming that they're unassailable just because they keep their stupid beliefs to themselves instead of acting on them.

Merry Christmas.

Robert Treder wrote:Since when are nice Christians off-limits for criticism? I realize that they don't withhold condoms, go on crusades, burn Jews, or sell Bibles door-to-door, but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.
I'm sick of people thinking that just because they're respectful with their beliefs, their beliefs are any more respectable.

So ... know any good jokes about moderate Christians?

Maybe you should run a Google search on "Dave Allen" or "Father Ted".

Well that wasn't nice...

No one here is putting any religion, liberal or extreme, or a pedastal. However there is simply much less to ebject when it comes to liberal and moderate christians.

And some of the atheists are as intolerant as the fundies they hate so much.

Here's the core problem with Robert Trader's rant:

Moderate Christians are a lot like science fiction fans.

Yes, you heard right.

What do the media do when they do a story on the local science fiction convention? Why, they whip out the old cliches about "beaming down to Wolrdcon" and "every year they come out of the closet" and whatnot. The trouble is, you will always find more witty, more biting, and more self mocking humour within the convention itself. The "geeks" actually know what to laugh at; the clueless detractors and media are left clutching the same straws every year.

On the subject of moderate Christians:

When it comes to religion, the Irish are the world masters of self deprecation. Examples:

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0131163

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0111958

The point is, the moderately religious always have a jolly good time laughing about their personal experiences. If you want to beat them at their own game, you should attempt a tactic other than a bitter rant (unless you could draw from personal experience to illustrate the "absurdity" of moderate religion, if your experience is amusing enough).

So, to Christians everywhere, know that I think you're bad people.

And a very merry FUCK YOU to you too.

Robert Treder wrote:Here's my rant:

I've been noticing on the boards and in real life, that after nearly every mention of the shittiness of Christianity, every moderate or liberal Christian chimes in to remind us that only fundies are crazy, and at least one person sees fit to accuse atheists of being just as irrational as fundies.
Since when are nice Christians off-limits for criticism? I realize that they don't withhold condoms, go on crusades, burn Jews, or sell Bibles door-to-door, but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.
I'm sick of people thinking that just because they're respectful with their beliefs, their beliefs are any more respectable.
So, to Christians everywhere, know that I think you're bad people. And no, I don't have to qualify that assertion, because you know very well of the various reasons that your belief systems are stupid bullshit. You simply choose to ignore it. You pretend that there's some virtue in irrationality.
I'm not, of course, advocating any action, physical or otherwise, against Chritians, I'm just saying that I'm sick of seeing Christians hide behind their wall of piety, assuming that they're unassailable just because they keep their stupid beliefs to themselves instead of acting on them.

What, you're sick of the way a shitload of people (who probably don't hold you any particular beef) won't admit they're irrational, or conceed defeat to you? Why the fuck should they?
I can't agree with this. It's damned near the point where intolerance begins, and if I can't take that from fundie morons or racist hatfuckers, I can't accept it off anybody else. Sorry.

Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

Robet Treder, what do you think of Deists? 'Cause a lot of those moderate Christians are actually deists but are just hanging on to the Christian name for the sake of hanging onto it.

Robert Treder wrote:but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.

<SNIP!>

Ever watch the Daily Show? They have / had a segment called 'Even Stevens' and in the opening one of the Stevens said, 'That's a stupid thing to say, and you're a stupid person for saying it.'

That pretty much sums up my beliefs about Christianity. And Therapeutic Magnets. Crystals. Holistic Medicine. ESP. Moon Hoax. The New York Rangers. The list just goes on and on.

but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.

And you're a fucking intolerant who takes pleasure in mocking people who have done nothing wrong. Shut the fuck up.

RadiO wrote: I can't agree with this. It's damned near the point where intolerance begins, and if I can't take that from fundie morons or racist hatfuckers, I can't accept it off anybody else. Sorry.

There's a major different between hating someone for being different, and hating someone for the substance of those difference.

For example, you think differently than the racists hatfuckers you mentioned above, does that mean you must respect their differences? Hell no. You look at the differences with a clear and open mind, then you judge them.

Goddamn Cyril, getting quite inflamed are we? I dunno if Moderate Christians haven't gone that far why can't they take the next step.

Goddamn Cyril, getting quite inflamed are we

Yes. I take a narrow view of bigots and assholes.

C.S.Strowbridge wrote:

RadiO wrote: I can't agree with this. It's damned near the point where intolerance begins, and if I can't take that from fundie morons or racist hatfuckers, I can't accept it off anybody else. Sorry.

There's a major different between hating someone for being different, and hating someone for the substance of those difference.

Yeah, but what if you're wrong in your judgement of that substance? Belief is a deeply subjective concept, and we start running into problems like the old question of whether any system of faith can ever be wholly rational.

For example, you think differently than the racists hatfuckers you mentioned above, does that mean you must respect their differences? Hell no. You look at the differences with a clear and open mind, then you judge them.

True. I just don't see that it's reasonable to attack somebody because they have a faith and go to church every week. There are better reasons to dislike folks than that, IMHO.
Fundies like that pack of clowns who had the "USMC = GAY" posters, or the creationists who butcher science, hell yeah. I can see why people have a beef with them. They're actively offensive, and they're trying very hard indeed to force their views on others.
But a bunch of innocent, "harmless" folks who just go through life quietly believing in something? These are unqualified "bad people"? What the fuck have they done to deserve this kind of ire?
You could swap the word "Christian" in this corresponance with the name of any other faith, and I'd be just as uncomfortable.
Robert Treder's rant is an opinion, and that's fine. I just don't necessarily agree with it.

I'm capable of understanding that Christians subscribe to irrational beliefs, but they're on more irrational than any other religous beliefs. Still, I'm quite fine with them, since nobody is harmed by people keeping irrational beliefs to themselves.

RadiO wrote:

C.S.Strowbridge wrote:

RadiO wrote: I can't agree with this. It's damned near the point where intolerance begins, and if I can't take that from fundie morons or racist hatfuckers, I can't accept it off anybody else. Sorry.

There's a major different between hating someone for being different, and hating someone for the substance of those difference.

Yeah, but what if you're wrong in your judgement of that substance? Belief is a deeply subjective concept, and we start running into problems like the old question of whether any system of faith can ever be wholly rational.

The answer to that old question is, "No." Faith, by definition, is irrational.

Robert Treder wrote:Here's my rant:

I've been noticing on the boards and in real life, that after nearly every mention of the shittiness of Christianity, every moderate or liberal Christian chimes in to remind us that only fundies are crazy, and at least one person sees fit to accuse atheists of being just as irrational as fundies.
Since when are nice Christians off-limits for criticism? I realize that they don't withhold condoms, go on crusades, burn Jews, or sell Bibles door-to-door, but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.
I'm sick of people thinking that just because they're respectful with their beliefs, their beliefs are any more respectable.
So, to Christians everywhere, know that I think you're bad people. And no, I don't have to qualify that assertion, because you know very well of the various reasons that your belief systems are stupid bullshit. You simply choose to ignore it. You pretend that there's some virtue in irrationality.
I'm not, of course, advocating any action, physical or otherwise, against Chritians, I'm just saying that I'm sick of seeing Christians hide behind their wall of piety, assuming that they're unassailable just because they keep their stupid beliefs to themselves instead of acting on them.

Merry Christmas.

Y'know Rob, despite liking you on the board, I have a massive urge to smack you IRL. WTF did they ever do to you, that you feel such an urge to tell them off? If their beliefs offend you, fine, be offended and shut the fuck up about it. You only have a right to complain when their belief inturde on yours. 'Freedom of Religion' ring a bell?

And why the fuck are you attacking Christians? Remove 'Christian' from your rant, and you can replace it with dozens of different names. WTF makes moderate Chistians so fucking different?

So, to Christians everywhere, know that I think you're bad people.

And I think you're a bigot. We're even.

C.S.Strowbridge wrote:

Robert Treder wrote:but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.

<SNIP!>

Ever watch the Daily Show? They have / had a segment called 'Even Stevens' and in the opening one of the Stevens said, 'That's a stupid thing to say, and you're a stupid person for saying it.'

That pretty much sums up my beliefs about Christianity. And Therapeutic Magnets. Crystals. Holistic Medicine. ESP. Moon Hoax. The New York Rangers. The list just goes on and on.

"You've just made me vomit in my own mouth."
"What's the weather like up your own ass?"

They really need to do that segment more often.

Durandal wrote:

C.S.Strowbridge wrote:

Robert Treder wrote:but they still ascribe to a stupid fucking set of beliefs, and in my book, that's grounds for me making fun of them.

<SNIP!>

Ever watch the Daily Show? They have / had a segment called 'Even Stevens' and in the opening one of the Stevens said, 'That's a stupid thing to say, and you're a stupid person for saying it.'

That pretty much sums up my beliefs about Christianity. And Therapeutic Magnets. Crystals. Holistic Medicine. ESP. Moon Hoax. The New York Rangers. The list just goes on and on.

"You've just made me vomit in my own mouth."
"What's the weather like up your own ass?"

I love that one.

They really need to do that segment more often.

Didn't one of the Stevens leave the show?

Robert Treder just needs a hug.

Trust me, it's the most effective way to punish people like him.

What he fails to realize is that many moderate Christians would tolerate his personal beliefs. That's probably what scares him. Think about that: he WANTS to start a fight.

When Jesus (or whatever his real name was, or whoever he was based on) said "Turn the other cheek", he knew what he was talking about. Sometimes the best way to punish your enemies is to play on their sense of guilt (assuming that they have a conscience at all), or prove that you could beat them at their own game (ie. display that you are impervious to ridicule).

IG-88E wrote:Y'know Rob, despite liking you on the board, I have a massive urge to smack you IRL. WTF did they ever do to you, that you feel such an urge to tell them off? If their beliefs offend you, fine, be offended and shut the fuck up about it. You only have a right to complain when their belief inturde on yours. 'Freedom of Religion' ring a bell?

"Freedom of speech" ring a bell? How is anyone's freedom of religion damaged by criticism? Christians attack every other religion on a daily basis, in sermons and on TV. Why do they expect to be immune to counterattack?

And why the fuck are you attacking Christians? Remove 'Christian' from your rant, and you can replace it with dozens of different names. WTF makes moderate Chistians so fucking different?

They worship a God who is defined by a Bible which is full of abhorrent hatred. Many of them don't even realize this, but there are differing schools of thought on the validity of pleading ignorance.

And I think you're a bigot. We're even.

Unlike most bigots, Robert can say two things:

1) Christians are not forced to be Christians. A Christian can change his beliefs voluntarily (unlike a black guy who obviously cannot change the colour of his skin, Michael Jackson excepted).

2) Christians largely defend the moral authority of a book called the Bible, which is morally abhorrent in many ways. By choosing to defend something which is morally abhorrent, they make themselves answerable for its flaws.

The average bigot cannot point to any doctrines which are known to be voluntarily upheld by the target of his bigotry. The only place where I would differ from him is that I know many Christians who willingly concede that the Bible is full of evil ideas (Brian Young, for example).

You've got some fascinating views, Mike.

IG-88E wrote:Y'know Rob, despite liking you on the board, I have a massive urge to smack you IRL. WTF did they ever do to you, that you feel such an urge to tell them off? If their beliefs offend you, fine, be offended and shut the fuck up about it. You only have a right to complain when their belief inturde on yours. 'Freedom of Religion' ring a bell?

And why the fuck are you attacking Christians? Remove 'Christian' from your rant, and you can replace it with dozens of different names. WTF makes moderate Chistians so fucking different?

I have the right to complain about what I want, when I want. Whether or not my complaints are justified is another story. 'Freedom FROM religion' ring a bell? That's what I expect.

You're right that it's a little one-sided against the Christians. For the record, I don't like Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Satanism, Wiccanism, Jainism, Zoroastroanism, or any of that other crap. The reason I'm 'attacking' Christians is that they're who I have to deal with on a daily basis, unfortunately.
My mother's a closet Catholic, though I fortunately was never indoctrinated as a child (I've only ever been to one church service in my life). My (ex)girlfriend was a Methodist, and that's precisely the kind of harmless religion I'm talking about. They pretend that they're all right, but on the points that matter, they're completely unacceptable.

And about being intolerant, so the fuck what? If schools can have 'Zero Tolerance' for drugs, then I can have 'Zero Tolerance' for religion.

Anyways, I didn't expect you'd like what I had to say, and I didn't claim that it was well thought-out, I was just sick of pretending not to notice.

Darth Wong wrote:The only place where I would differ from him is that I know many Christians who willingly concede that the Bible is full of evil ideas (Brian Young, for example).

I haven't had the pleasure of meeting such folks. Even the nice Christians I know excuse it with the whole "It was a different time" bullshit.
But that sounds a little fishy to me. Do such people accept that the Bible stuff happened but was evil, or do they think that it didn't happen? If you don't believe in the truth of the Bible, how do you consider yourself Christian? Sounds like general spiritualists or mystics that are just too afraid to diverge from the religious framework they grew up with, so they pretend that their personal god is the god of the middle east.

[quote="Robert Treder"

So, to Christians everywhere, know that I think you're bad people. [/quote]

I can't think of an insult that would piss him off, so I'll just say

"God Bless You"