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About a year ago a former friend of mine got bashed into a a coma, by three morons with a brick, leaving him for dead. He has since recovered, although imo has probably suffered mild brain damage. Eventually the three responsible were caught and charged with attempted murder. A few months ago the trial was over and reported on the front page of Adelaides only nbewspaper the Advertiser. The verdict for the defendents was guilty ofsome ofrm of assault (can't remember the details). They were all given suspended jail sentences of around 2 to 5 years, meaning they don't have to serve any time. Some of the insane arguements used to justify this ludicrously low sentence were, in one persons case he claimed hthat he was only kicking the person when he was on the ground to check ifg he was ok. Anpther the lawyers argued that the three all had promising futures (I believer one of them was studying law or medicine or something like that) ahead of them if it weren't for this small mistake. My response to that is of course what the fuck does the future career of a person have to do with their sentencing for a crime???!!!! What about the future of my friend which has been hampered by the attack, it cost him at least a year of university? How can bashing someones face with a break and leaving him for dead be considered a small mistake?
Of course it must be said my friend was certainly no angel and my first thought when it happened was it was something drug related, but the old boys network tells me it was more likely that he insulted one of the three's girlfiend a week before the incident (which by the way makes it premeditated), and they decided to get revenge, it is also likely that old school rivalries played a small role in it. (The three attackers all went to PAC a school with an intense rivalry with St Peters, the school my friend and I went too. Although there was high media coverage of thre attack and the trial, there was not much public response, I think we in SA have got to used to the bizarre sentencing system.
Personally I have a sneaking suspiscion that the judge was an ex PAC student, and subconciously allowed his bias to affect his judgement on this case.
My question is how in a state where home invasion (which is breaking into a house while someone is home, not necessarily harming that person) can get up around 20 years jail, does aggravated assault, verging on attempted murder only get 3 years suspended?
Secondly how can I work to fix this system? To the Aussies on the board (especially any South Aussies) do you think a petition for toughter sentencing for this sort of crime would a) get support? b) influence the current government to act?
Also any suggestions as to what sort of legislation you would think would be necessary, and whther a national approach would be better. If I were to start a petitison I have a fairly high profile political contact in the federal parliament (in the senate) who could present it to petition (if national) or pass it on to others in this state who could present it in the state parliament, without this I wouldn't be considering a petition because I wouldn't be able to get a high enough profile.
Sorry about the length and ranting (and mild name dropping), but it is an issue which is very important to me.
I would welcome comments from anyone, including non aussies.

That sucks to be sure, but all legal systems have the inevitable horseshit verdict that slips through. Your legal system is still far better than those in the majority of the world's nations.

damn it...

Wicked Pilot wrote:That sucks to be sure, but all legal systems have the inevitable horseshit verdict that slips through. Your legal system is still far better than those in the majority of the world's nations.

Yeah I agree with that, but here we have had a bit of a spate (IMO) of strange sentences, and it would be nice to have a little conisistency.And any system should be improved when flaws are found. And it is more a state issue, and SA should be doing better than we are on this, I don't think the other states are as bad. From lawyers I have spoken too our victim support/victims of crime programs are not in good shape.

A gay couple who lived next door to me in Launceston were beaten nearly to death by a gang of more than 10 youths (oldest was 19 IIRC) who were all armed with bats, lead pipes etc.

These guys lost their jobs, insurance didn't cover their medical expenses or anything.

And every single one of the little fuckers got off with a suspended sentence of barely a few months, "because they had difficult home lives." Thats no fucking excuse to got out in a gang and beat the crap out of people. Oh, lets not forget that the only reason they attacked these two guys was because they were gay.

Totally fucked up.

weemadando wrote:And every single one of the little fuckers got off with a suspended sentence of barely a few months, "because they had difficult home lives." Thats no fucking excuse to got out in a gang and beat the crap out of people. Oh, lets not forget that the only reason they attacked these two guys was because they were gay.

Totally fucked up.

See this is what I do't get, you get people getting light sentences like those bastards because of a bad hom,es, and on the other hand you have the ones who bashed my friend getting a light sentence because they came from 'good homes' and had good prospects. WTF??? It would be better if they just made all sentences less, at least that would be consistent. IMO background should only play a role insentencing if it is something which directly leads to the crime, for example if a women is being abused by her husband and she finally snaps and kills him, then it shoulod be taken into account. But for little shits who go bashing gays their backgroung has no relevacnce to the sentencing. And even in the woman's case I think that suspending the jail term would still be the wrong course, but she should have a reduced sentence. Suspended sentences are a complete joke, it says you are guilty you should get this punishment, but we can't be bothered giving it to you.

So weemadando would you support a petition calling for a review on sentencing in Australia, possible leading to reform?

Might I suggest you call Dirty Harry?.
Unfortunately, we all have screwed-up legal systems. Recently in my town a guy was convicted for his TWENTY-NINTH DUI. He got bailed-out of jail and was re-arrested just three hours later. Guess what for??...DUI.

Legal systems are messed up everywhere. When I was in highschool I had a disgusting taste of our school's "zero tolerance" policy in addition to our screwed up legal system, and all this at the tender age of 15. I'd just moved back to Toronto from overseas and I was the new girl in class. I was still getting to know people and fit into things and what not, and there was this pesky guy who was giving me bad vibes. It didn't help much that our teacher didn't have much control over our class.

Anyways, this guy sat at the desk beside me and kept poking me and wouldn't keep his hands off me, even after I told him to quit it and gave him a good shove. The guy kept poking me and then had the audacity to grope my breasts, what a fucking creep! I'd never been so outraged in my life and I punched his lights out and hit him a few more times before others pulled me off him. The teacher, who'd seen the entire exchange escorted me down to the office, and after the mandatory talk with the VP I was suspended and sent home after my parents were called up. I later learned that I'd broken the guy's nose and cheekbone and put him in the hospital for a couple days.

Unfortunately that wasn't the end of things, this stupid little prick's yuppie parents decided to file charges against me! What a bunch of shits, I'd been violated by their shithead son and they want to charge me because he got what he deserved? God damn! The case went to trial and thankfully the judge had enough sense in him to throw it out of court after the opening arguments, but the stupid shits shouldn't have been able to file the bogus charges in the first place!

They can talk about justice reform and victim's rights all they want, but having gone through the system you'll forgive me if I think they're completely full of shit. Anyways, enough ranting.

I would feel bad about this fucked up sentence, but one of my dad's secretaries was arrested years ago and almost forced to perform sexual favors to the pigs because some stupid little girl ran out of her house without looking and CRASHED into the woman's PARKED car.

I don't give a shit about how horrible someone elses life is, that doesn't give them the right to try to kill/actually kill someone.

If they want to kill someone, they should kill themselves. Then everyone will feel sorry for them, except the people who know better.

The problem with criminal justice is the "free will" mentality. The "free will" mentality teaches that someone's responsibility for his actions is somehow related to the exercise of "free will". In other words, if he was under the influence of something, then it wasn't really "his fault", and he's not fully responsible.

Alcohol, duress, religion, family problems, depression, etc. are all examples of influences which are routinely cited as mitigations of free will.

There are two problems with the "free will" mentality:

1) Free will is arguably a fantasy; everyone is a product of their backgrounds. Taken to extremes, the "free will" defense can exonerate anyone.

2) Free will (in this context, as opposed to someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do something) is completely irrelevant to responsibility. If you murder someone, it doesn't matter whether you were influenced to do it or did it from this thing called "free will"; the point is that you did it.

Societies must assign responsibility based on actions, not psychobabble motivations. The whole point of law is to codify societal responsibility for actions so that undesirable actions will be discouraged. This doesn't happen if irrelevant excuses for those actions are permitted.

I was attacked (and still have a scar from it) when I was a small child, by a racist who was convinced that Asians were undeservedly taking away white peoples' jobs. He did not even get a suspension from school, because his parents were divorced.

But this is not legislative; it is precedent. Judges have consistently upheld this kind of idiotic thinking, even though there's nothing in legislation to make them do so. There was another case recently of a man who was found not guilty of rape because he was drunk (seriously). Again, the "free will" mentality rears its ugly head. Why? The judge was probably a fucking alcoholic himself. One of the biggest problems with the legal system is not so much the framework as the people who populate it: judges and lawyers and juries who don't give a fuck about justice or even the purpose of law.

Well it is pretty clear that everyone's justice systems are messed up, it is good to see that SA isn't alone.

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with criminal justice is the "free will" mentality. The "free will" mentality teaches that someone's responsibility for his actions is somehow related to the exercise of "free will". In other words, if he was under the influence of something, then it wasn't really "his fault", and he's not fully responsible.

Alcohol, duress, religion, family problems, depression, etc. are all examples of influences which are routinely cited as mitigations of free will.

There are two problems with the "free will" mentality:

1) Free will is arguably a fantasy; everyone is a product of their backgrounds. Taken to extremes, the "free will" defense can exonerate anyone.

2) Free will (in this context, as opposed to someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do something) is completely irrelevant to responsibility. If you murder someone, it doesn't matter whether you were influenced to do it or did it from this thing called "free will"; the point is that you did it.

Societies must assign responsibility based on actions, not psychobabble motivations. The whole point of law is to codify societal responsibility for actions so that undesirable actions will be discouraged. This doesn't happen if irrelevant excuses for those actions are permitted.

I agree with you, and having read that and thought about it I think that I should revise my example of the abused woman murderer and sentencing to something more like this: I could understand and accept society taking the abuse into account in sentencing (whereas cannot with many of the cases brought up here), but would prefer that is was the actions that were used to decide sentencing. I think it would be very hard to completely remove the 'free will' defense from our justice systems, but I would at least like to try and work to reduce its impact.

Darth Wong wrote:I was attacked (and still have a scar from it) when I was a small child, by a racist who was convinced that Asians were undeservedly taking away white peoples' jobs. He did not even get a suspension from school, because his parents were divorced.

This is yet another example of our society teaching people that you don't have to be responsible for your own actions, and it is fucking irritating (especially when little shits use it as an excuse to get away with their stupidity), it is getting to the point where you don't have to be responsible for your actions, but you do for other people's. This really needs to be stopped for us to have a functioning society.

Darth Wong wrote:But this is not legislative; it is precedent. Judges have consistently upheld this kind of idiotic thinking, even though there's nothing in legislation to make them do so. There was another case recently of a man who was found not guilty of rape because he was drunk (seriously). Again, the "free will" mentality rears its ugly head. Why? The judge was probably a fucking alcoholic himself. One of the biggest problems with the legal system is not so much the framework as the people who populate it: judges and lawyers and juries who don't give a fuck about justice or even the purpose of law.

Although I agree that it is precedent and the morons that populate the justice system that are the problem, legislature can be used to help try and 'plug the gaps' and improve the situation. An example of this is the 'truth in sentencing laws' they have in at least one Australian state, Victoria I think. This was to solve the problem of parole boards, reducing criminals sentences and jail time to below what the judge had set. It forced criminals to at least serve their minimum sentence. (Which I would have thought should have been common sense and not needed separate legislation, but that is the justice system for ya). The legislation I think is needed is to set a minimum sentence for each crime, and strict guidlines for suspended sentences, although I think suspended sentences are a stupid idea and should probably better abanoned completely, if you don't think prison is warranted then the sentence should have somnething like community service not jail term which is not served, what does that achieve?)

Well, as a cititzen of SA, Mr Flibble, Id say there is definately something rotten in our system. I dont know about the rest of the Aussies here, but who would actually call the police if they were being assaulted etc. THe general reaction would "sure!" nu-uh...forget it. These bastards arent interested.

The US police have the saying on their cars "To serve and Protect" I believe. I think we do as well except our cops serve themselves and collect tax incom. I had a friend who was home invaded by 10 people. A party had been going on, and these fuckers smashed their way in, stabbed two people, beat the crud out of 4 more and totally wrecked the house...and for all that, they stole 8 cd's and 4 bottles of alchohol and a playstation.

When we reported this to the cops, they said that "There wasnt enough evidence,a nd we couldnt provide them with names so it would be too hard to find them. They they would register it and look into it".

Well, Whoop-de-fuckin-doo! MY friend gets half killed, and they treated the incident like it was nothing. There is no justice here, law-abiding folk are basically hostages to the whims of the criminal, becuase the justicce system, and the police force have failed utterly in their duties. I even had a stand up argument with a police sargent about what a policemans duties were. I said arnt you supposed to protect the public, and to provide actual crime prevention. His response (smug git) was "Not really, we only try to catch the offenders after" I wont give my response....needless to say he threatened me with the usual insulting a police officer bollocks.

If our police cannot and will not protect the innocent, then where do we turn? They have effectively disarmed our populace with their draconic weapons laws ( not just guns) and have made us prime targets for violent acts. Even our self-defence laws are a piece of shit. How can someone who has defended themselves from attack by some low-life, get charges against them! ITs just soo wrong

A caveat to this. The cops did catch one of the home invaders...want to know what it took? They were holding a police information session in the local mall. My friend, still battered from his ordeal, saw one of the punks there. He walked up to the officers and pointed to the guy. Even then, it took my friend to begin hysterically ranting and raving to get them to go over and arrest the little turd. I couldnt believe it, i was watching as a pair of people, who are supposed to uphold the law, were going to let a KNOWN criminal go, and were more content to threaten my friend with a number of charges (foul language, assault ( towards the punk), harrasment etc)

Nice one you stupid fuckers. Things like that make me ache for teh days of eye for and eye....

sorry about the rant, But I know where your coming from Mr Flibble

Sounds like your police forces suck. The cops around here are good guys IMHO; I've never found a police officer to be any less than courteous and helpful, and they do take their jobs seriously. One complaint about a stranger wandering around the schoolyard offering candy to kids, and a squad car was parked by the school for the next week. They still do frequent drive-bys.

Oh they do. They suck like you wouldnt believe. To be fair though, it seems like they are mostly reduced to income gathering via speeding fines etc and policing low risk/high income(fines) type crimes. IF a crime gets even near serious, then they fall to pieces.

I live in a mid-size industrial town. The police here freely harrass young people on the street. Apparently walking alone is now a reason to harras you. We dont have a curfew, yet they act like there is. My town isnt that big, yet it takes them and hour (?!) to attend even a simple domestic dispute. We have a massive drug problem in this town, and, I hope im not being cyncial, but I bet most are on the take. Worst of all are teh cops from Adelaide, either straight out of the academy, or on dicplinary duties. They can and will arrest you even for waving to them! In a friendly way! Mental cases who couldnt catch a cold...abusive power freaks...

I reckon I should start a protection racket...least I could provide some measure of safety an protection for people...Imperial Armed security...White armor and blasters mandatory(jk)

Mike, dead serious, if we had a similar problem, ie child-molesters, peverts hanging round schools, we would be lucky to get even a single visit by any police about the problem. They are more likely to take a report, and then sweep the whole thing under the rug

Interesting. The one time I lived in a small town, its cops were shit too. Maybe it's a big-city vs small-town thing. The cops in a big city have greater expectations upon them, take their jobs more seriously, etc. You have to be a little more serious about "protect and serve" to put on the badge in a big city where the next perp might shoot you and the next disgruntled citizen might be a multi-millionaire with social connections to the Mayor. In a small town, they walk around like gods.

Yeah our cops suck. The main problem here is I think that the government keeps taking funds out of the system and demanding the cops collect more speeding fines, in the last budget the government actually budgeted for an increase in speeding fine revenue! It doesn't help that to become a cop here takes only 6 months training and you don't have to have high schoool qualificatations even. Having said that I have met some courteous cops, a couple at my last car accident and a friends dad. However in generally our whole system is overstretched due to the gov spending too much money 'buying' investment (previous gov) or buying independents (current gov). Our state seems to focus revenue raising on speeding fines and pokie taxes.

Its not just the police, its the whole legal system. Prosecutors withholding evidence to get convictions, police not investigating crimes seriously or professionally, etc... Cops should investigate real crimes, murder, rape, theft, and not focus on traffic violations. Of course theres no money in solving a murder :\

Damn missed your posts while typing mine

pellaeons_scion wrote:Mike, dead serious, if we had a similar problem, ie child-molesters, peverts hanging round schools, we would be lucky to get even a single visit by any police about the problem. They are more likely to take a report, and then sweep the whole thing under the rug

I would agree there they would proabably drive by once and then make a report. Their main function here is to collect speeding fines.

Darth Wong wrote:Interesting. The one time I lived in a small town, its cops were shit too. Maybe it's a big-city vs small-town thing. The cops in a big city have greater expectations upon them, take their jobs more seriously, etc. You have to be a little more serious about "protect and serve" to put on the badge in a big city where the next perp might shoot you and the next disgruntled citizen might be a multi-millionaire with social connections to the Mayor. In a small town, they walk around like gods.

It isn't really a small town big city thing, Adelaide is as bad as pellaeons scion says and Adelaide is the largest city in the state, in fact it has about two thirds of the state's population in it. Its population is about 1 million, but our cops are still crap. I think here actually the country cops, small town cops are more likely to be better as if they screw up they are more likely to be known by the people around them.

Falcon wrote:Its not just the police, its the whole legal system. Prosecutors withholding evidence to get convictions, police not investigating crimes seriously or professionally, etc... Cops should investigate real crimes, murder, rape, theft, and not focus on traffic violations. Of course theres no money in solving a murder :\

Yeah and in a state where we had a pedophile magistrate you can't expect the justice system to be working properly.

Tassie police are generally fairly good. Crap response times due to the fact that our dispatchers are in goddamn Victoria (one notable occassion there was an armed robbery of a bank, the goddamn dispatchers refused to send units because - there's no Trust Bank in Longford, well atleast not in Longford Vic, but in Longford Tas, there's one and it was being held up). Once on site however our police are generally nothing but helpful.

Mr Flibble wrote:
Yeah and in a state where we had a pedophile magistrate you can't expect the justice system to be working properly.

Pedophile magistrate?

I live in a city of about 40,000 and I've never had a problem with our police officers. They've always seemed like really nice people, even if they have given out a few too many speeding tickets. Of course, I think that our town had the sixth and then the eighth best police force for a city in its size-bracket a few years ago (IIR the article C), but I don't mind the police here one bit.

Ill agree with Flibble. One of the biggest problems is lack of funding and lack of training. And not all cops are bad. I particulary agree with Weemadando. I was involved in an incident (shooting) in Launceston, and the cops that arrived on the scene (in 2 minutes!) were helpful and kind, and seemed to have a genuine hatred for criminal scum. The cops were having coffee across the street when they heard the gunfire. So hoorah for Tas cops, else me and about 4 others wouldnt be here today. If anyone wants to know details PM me, its not something Ill talk about publicly.

Seeing as our police force is so inept, maybe another solution would be better. One of our growing idustries is private security firms. Maybe police forces should be privatised or subcontracted, then they get performance indicators etc...maybe making how much they earn dependant on how much crimes are solved/stopped. I know this opens it up for corruption, but there has to be a better way than the one now. I for one would like people to confidently be able to inform the police about a crime, without fear of retribution from the criminal element. Its not nice when you have had a crime committed against you and the next day the thug who did it shows up on your door threatening you.

In case your wondering I have a severe case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...just lucky I guess NOT!

Morning star: Yup. Ill try and find a link on it. When the worst scum of society rises to that level, what hope does justice have