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closet sci-fi fan wrote:I've heard from alot of people that Israelies have a really negative opinion about Americans. Does Israel really only like us for our money? Would they still be as close as allies as they are if their existance was not dependant on our finacial aid?

Please only reply if you have an informed opinion. Speculation is not appreciated.

Yes, they would. Remember that the second largest Jewish population in the world resides in the USA. Many Israelis have family ties here, and many more reside here part of the year, or have emigrated to here, or from here. Our ties are very close; in the blood, so to speak.

The United States of America is one of the few nations on earth where Jews are genuinely free of persecution.

Usually people who say that Israel does not have genuine ties with the USA, claim that somehow Israel is manipulating us, and makes note of Israeli spying, and the Liberty incident.

1. All nations spy on each other, no matter how close they are to each other.

2. The U.S.S. Liberty incident is succintly explained here:

http://pub82.ezboard.com/fhistorypoliti ... D=47.topic

There is no basis for the claims that Israel wants our alliance only for money; it is part of the typical anti-semitic propaganda barrage.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Yes, they would. Remember that the second largest Jewish population in the world resides in the USA. Many Israelis have family ties here, and many more reside here part of the year, or have emigrated to here, or from here. Our ties are very close; in the blood, so to speak.

So it's all about race. As usual, when it comes to Israel.

The United States of America is one of the few nations on earth where Jews are genuinely free of persecution.

They are as free, if not freer in Canada, yet I don't see the Israelis kissing up to us the way they kiss up to you. It's about the money.

Usually people who say that Israel does not have genuine ties with the USA, claim that somehow Israel is manipulating us, and makes note of Israeli spying, and the Liberty incident.

How silly to be upset about attacking a ship and killing servicemen.

2. The U.S.S. Liberty incident is succintly explained here: http://pub82.ezboard.com/fhistorypoliti ... D=47.topic

My oh my, the Israelis seem to be awfully error-prone, don't they? For years, every unwarranted killing in the Occupied Territories has been an accident. What do they not excuse as accidents?

There is no basis for the claims that Israel wants our alliance only for money; it is part of the typical anti-semitic propaganda barrage.

Playing the race card now? All criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

The United States of America is one of the few nations on earth where Jews are genuinely free of persecution.

now, i´m not sure, but arent they genuinely free in a lot of nations on earth? at least in as many as muslims, christians, atheists...

salm wrote: now, i´m not sure, but arent they genuinely free in a lot of nations on earth? at least in as many as muslims, christians, atheists...

Surely; Free, that is. But free of persecution? No. The old attitudes in Europe live on, and reinforced by the influx of middle-eastern immigrants. This has been amply demonstrated post-9/11.

The British Foreign Office was even applauding the Munich Terrorist operation way-back-when.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

salm wrote: now, i´m not sure, but arent they genuinely free in a lot of nations on earth? at least in as many as muslims, christians, atheists...

Surely; Free, that is. But free of persecution? No. The old attitudes in Europe live on, and reinforced by the influx of middle-eastern immigrants. This has been amply demonstrated post-9/11.

The British Foreign Office was even applauding the Munich Terrorist operation way-back-when.

the old attitudes live on in some fucked up heads, just like everywhere, but the vast majority has no problems with jews or prosecutes(!) them!
it´s simply not true that jews are prosectuted here. where did you get your information from?

salm wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
the old attitudes live on in some fucked up heads, just like everywhere, but the vast majority has no problems with jews or prosecutes(!) them!
it´s simply not true that jews are prosectuted here. where did you get your information from?

(Note: Persecution is a different word than prosecution, persecution meaning to engaging in systematic and malicious harassment; not necessarily with government sanction.)

BLAMING THE JEWS: Fascinating detail from the British government's release of 30-year-old classified documents in the Telegraph yesterday. The British Foreign Office - like the State Department, a center of elite Arabophilia - blamed Israel for the deaths of its athletes at the Munich Olympics. A despatch from Jerusalem tried to explain why there had been almost no Arab condemnation of the killing of Jews:

Gayford Woodrow, the consul general in Jerusalem, sent a dispatch to the Foreign Office on Sept 12, six days after the attack, saying:

"Before we reproach the Arabs too much, perhaps we might try to put ourselves in their shoes.

"They are, after all, human beings with normal human failings. The Palestinians in particular have seen their land taken away from them by a group of mainly European invaders equipped with superior armed force and modern technology. Whatever one's moral criticism, it must be agreed that the Munich operation was well planned and that the Arabs there carried it out to the bitter end. It is said that lives were really lost because of Israel and West German bungling incompetence."

Ah those plucky terrorists. Not their fault if a few pushy Jews got killed.

From www.andrewsullivan.com


Here's the telegraph article:

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/ma ... xhome.html

- How can you really excuse an office of the British government saying things like that. In the seventies, no less, when the situation was entirely different?

There have been other articles on the subject, of course, of the attacks in France and Germany, though I will grant that between Muslim immigrants and a limited number of native extremist fanatics you could accomplish the persecution that goes on.

However; it does not excuse stances like this from sections of European governments - And when you hear things like that, it makes you wonder.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: The United States of America is one of the few nations on earth where Jews are genuinely free of persecution.

Ever heard of the KKK. Didn't Jesse Jackson call new york hymie-town?

Not to mention Chick and his fundie cronies.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_01.asp

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

BLAMING THE JEWS: Fascinating detail from the British government's release of 30-year-old classified documents in the Telegraph yesterday. The British Foreign Office - like the State Department, a center of elite Arabophilia - blamed Israel for the deaths of its athletes at the Munich Olympics. A despatch from Jerusalem tried to explain why there had been almost no Arab condemnation of the killing of Jews:

Gayford Woodrow, the consul general in Jerusalem, sent a dispatch to the Foreign Office on Sept 12, six days after the attack, saying:

"Before we reproach the Arabs too much, perhaps we might try to put ourselves in their shoes.

"They are, after all, human beings with normal human failings. The Palestinians in particular have seen their land taken away from them by a group of mainly European invaders equipped with superior armed force and modern technology. Whatever one's moral criticism, it must be agreed that the Munich operation was well planned and that the Arabs there carried it out to the bitter end. It is said that lives were really lost because of Israel and West German bungling incompetence."

Ah those plucky terrorists. Not their fault if a few pushy Jews got killed.

From www.andrewsullivan.com


Here's the telegraph article:

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/ma ... xhome.html

- How can you really excuse an office of the British government saying things like that. In the seventies, no less, when the situation was entirely different?

You know why I don't condemn that one? Because he is 90% correct. These are people who were subject to decades of brutal oppression and they chose to fight back in the only way left to them. They held the hostages for a long time without violence and quite frankly the German and Israeli response teams were incompetent. In other words I find praise for them no more offensive than praise for the dedication of the Viet Cong, I would guess you would have no objection to people praising them for their actions despite repeated use of these same terrorist tactics.