EU Fic: NJO Reboot

[Admiral Felire]

Ire said no Force tech in the Yuuzhan Vong era, not in the past.

And I say we keep the Rakatan past, though that has nothing to do with this thread.

[Noble Ire]

Ire said no Force tech in the Yuuzhan Vong era, not in the past.

And I say we keep the Rakatan past, though that has nothing to do with this thread.

Although I agree with IP that the story surrounding the Rakata could be better, I don't think that they are part of the mandate of this aspect of the project. Unless that changes, I don't think that they really have to be addressed.

[Crayz9000]

If I may butt in, the possibility of (insert extragalactic species here) being from another galaxy far, far away is actually not terribly impossible with SW hyperdrive speeds. For example, a galaxy eighty million light-years away is only about sixty years' time in hyperspace, going by the published rate of 127 ly / hr. It's even more ludicrous if you assume they can match Darth Maul, crossing about 50,000 ly in a day (that, by the way, works out to only 4 years in intergalactic space).

[Admiral Felire]

Crayz9000, that is a very interesting and good point, and one that I hadn't thought of. And it is true that if the Vong have the same general technology levels as the galaxy they would be able to achieve like velocities. Which would make the possibility of long-distance travel to this galaxy from another possible.

This also goes along the line of the existence of the canon Outbound Flight Project. I mean the galaxy had figured to send out some exploration vessels to other galaxies, if that is true then why couldn't somebody else try to send ships to this one.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There's a very good reason not to go extragalactic - it begs very awkward questions, like why did the SW civilization with 25k years, never venture out and make any lasting connections or experiences? Even the original NJO authors realized this, they just fudged it with the stupid "extragalactic barrier" of "impenetrable hyperspace turbulence." If the power is extragalactic, they should be genuine long-term nomads or exiles, almost having forgotten their origin who come to the GFFA because of total freak-chance or a special provocation.

[Admiral Felire]

If the power is extragalactic, they should be genuine long-term nomads or exiles, almost having forgotten their origin who come to the GFFA because of total freak-chance or a special provocation.

I am all for this. I think that this is a nice change and I think it brings about an interesting feel for them. They are galactic nomads, traveling through intergalactic space for eons looking for something.

I think and idea like this could work very well.

[Crayz9000]

There's a very good reason not to go extragalactic - it begs very awkward questions, like why did the SW civilization with 25k years, never venture out and make any lasting connections or experiences? Even the original NJO authors realized this, they just fudged it with the stupid "extragalactic barrier" of "impenetrable hyperspace turbulence." If the power is extragalactic, they should be genuine long-term nomads or exiles, almost having forgotten their origin who come to the GFFA because of total freak-chance or a special provocation.

Who says they never ventured out? The only question that's being raised is: Why did they never return?

I can give a few good examples of that, from the current EU, without resorting to the "galactic barrier" load of steaming bantha poodoo the NJO introduced:

1. Apathy. Just look at NASA here trying to go back to the Moon, for chrissake... now imagine the Republic, on its grand scale, trying to generate interest in a long-term colony mission which would take a significant amount of funding and hundreds of years. (Not that they don't have the funding, I mean the Empire managed to build two Death Stars at ludicrous speed, but having the money and actually being able to use it are two completely different things.) Ignoring the inevitable pork barreling in the Senate, I seriously doubt there's much interest outside the scientific community.

2. Projects like the Outbound Flight, which had the funding, staff and endurance to actually make it to another galaxy and start colonizing, were sabotaged either externally (such as the OFP) or internally. The Sith may have a had in other sabotage besides the OFP, but it's never documented in any other stories.

3. Refugees from law going off half-baked. Most of them probably ended up in Wild Space, but I'm sure a few tried to make the extragalactic journey. Most probably didn't survive.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1. Apathy. Just look at NASA here trying to go back to the Moon, for chrissake... now imagine the Republic, on its grand scale, trying to generate interest in a long-term colony mission which would take a significant amount of funding and hundreds of years. (Not that they don't have the funding, I mean the Empire managed to build two Death Stars at ludicrous speed, but having the money and actually being able to use it are two completely different things.) Ignoring the inevitable pork barreling in the Senate, I seriously doubt there's much interest outside the scientific community.

These kind of excuses are credible over short lengths of time, like NASA and the last 30 years. But 25,000 years? Even Csilla, the Chiss homeworld in the depths of the halo or Unknown Regions, was settled by pre-FTL generational ship colonization before the invention of hyperdrive. That they do that and never g out There must be powerful economic or physical reasons it doesn't really happen.

2. Projects like the Outbound Flight, which had the funding, staff and endurance to actually make it to another galaxy and start colonizing, were sabotaged either externally (such as the OFP) or internally. The Sith may have a had in other sabotage besides the OFP, but it's never documented in any other stories.

Every attempt just happened to be consistently sabotaged? How is that not a contrived reason for it not to happen?

3. Refugees from law going off half-baked. Most of them probably ended up in Wild Space, but I'm sure a few tried to make the extragalactic journey. Most probably didn't survive.

Sure. This counts as true desperation. But it still doesn't satisfy the fact that we should pretend extragalactic contact never happens or is extremely rare in order to avoid awkward questions.

It may be that duration-wise they can get to the next galaxy over, but even dedicated spacecraft are unknown to have a hyperdrive range exceeding a quarter of a million light-years. Fuel economy and technological constraints may become quite difficult to surmount and make dedicated inter-galactic travel and contact impractical.

[Pelranius]

Maybe we could use the NJO reboot as a sort of bridge to an extra galactic expedition or two?

Either the new extra galactic expedition should be lead by the Jedi, sponsored by some corporation or a bunch of Imperials looking for a new home.

And what should we do about the Abominor and Silentium droid civilizations? I always like the idea of a galactic wide droid revolt.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Meh, I think that's all a big distraction. I think the NJO arc should just lay-off, and afterward there'd only be bit adventures and small-scale stories. The galaxy goes back to normal.

[Vehrec]

Here's another idea for why the Galaxy doesn't colonize nearby galactic units-they have been devistated by some ancient wars, and stand as mute testament to the folly of those who built the superweapons that destroyed the civilizations that inhabited them. Ancient explorors found these galaxies void of life and colonizable planets, turning an attractive prospect unattractive. Perhaps these same wars catapulted the Vong into the inter-galactic void, and remain a scar on their cultural psyche.

And I agree that the act of building and fuelling an intergalactic hyperdrive should represent a major hurdle.

[Admiral Felire]

Crazy9000

I like your points and I think they work very well. Just as you said, while it might be easy to establish the colonization to another galaxy it might not be that easy for them to come back. Just as it is not out of the realms of possiblity for both the Sith and other groups (I could see the Jedi stopping the attempt politically by using the fact that the Force shows them bad visions about it) trying to stop it.

So yeah, I think your explanations make sense, are not contrivied and could be used to great effect to try and come up with various ideas and plot points.

Illuminatus Primus

Why couldn't other attempts in the distant 25,000 year past have been successful in leaving htis galaxy. They were unsuccessful in that no word had ever reached the galaxy about those other groups. And I wouldn't be surprised if a number of attempts reached the outer galaxies and decided to just stop. For example, the Chiss could have been one such ancient attempt in the pre-Republic or early-Republic days. They traveled beyond the main galaxy but crashed landed on an icy world in the deep of the Galactic Periphery where they built up their own culture.

If its extremely rare than I have no problem with us using it as a major, universe shattering point in the story. It wont' be used again and no more will the option be present, but using it once - sure, that sounds fine to me. It sounds epic, it sounds fantastical, it sound Star Wars.

I never thought that it would be easy, simple or a walk in the park - I just think its possible. And that if a dedicated force of people wnat to do it then they should be able to do it, occassionally.

Pelranius

That is actually an interesting point. I could see an official plot idea that if other galacitic populations could get to this galaxy than what is to say others cannot. To this end their could be a sponosred operation to try and establish a second Outbound Flight Project, this time without going near the Chiss and heading with much larger support.

Any such plot point (which is based on canonical basics) would not have to interfere with the main plot. Any characters that go on such missions, and the ships and resources they had, would hardly be galactic effecting afterward. It would open up new possibilities for stories while at the same time not impeding on the normal Star Wars galaxy.

I think that is always a positive.

Vehrec

In general I think that since the Star Wars galaxy is already intergalactic, there is no reason for them to expand on a concentrated level beyond that. If they are capable of taking and holding and understanding the scores of galaxies around the main one then that might be all they need - or culturally want. So despite being able to see that thousands of times far out beyond the longest range other galaxies exist they might have no reason, no impetous to colonize or explore on a huge basis.

And honestly, I have no problem with the idea that beyond normal galactic limits (and certain thresholds beyond that) the utilization of hyperdrive becomes harder and harder. With the need for new astrogative data that is not easy to come by.

[Crayz9000]

Yeah, I forgot to add the fourth reason:

4. If a project such as the Outbound Flight managed to make it to the destination intact, they may have been stuck with an "Oops, we forgot about fuel for the return trip" situation, or "Oops, we had to use the spare hyperdrive halfway through and now we can't get back," or any other number of "Oops" situations. Either that, or the hypercomm range is greatly exceeded and would necessitate a giant listening station that may have been dismantled for political reasons by the time the transmission becomes necessary.

Having said all this, I think one of the megacorporations in Star Wars would be best suited toward creating and funding an expedition. While politicians and motives change every few elections, if a megacorporation actually goes to the point of funding such a mission and includes it on their long-term budget, I get the feeling that it's going to be a little more stable than trying to get such a long-term project working through the Republic Senate.

[Kartr_Kana]

Just dropping in to give my two cents.
A) YV bio-tech wank is IMO garbage, I mean coral ships? Coral is extremely fragile to begin with and then it's not even as dense as normal rock much less the nickel-iron asteroids we see vaporised over and over again in ESB. If you really want the vong to use some sort of bio-tech cause they religiously hate technology. Have the ships be constructed by snail like animals. Only the secretions that form their shells are metallic. One creature makes a hull large enough to build a fighter out of. A whole "hive" or "swarm" whatever creates a honeycomb big enough to make a capital ship out of. Use stuff like that so you can have the retarded "lolz its grown, heh heh" idea but it still has the characteristics of normal SW tech.

B) The disparity of hyperdrive speeds and hyperdrive trade lanes. I think I read something in a WEG guide (I know I know WEG) about how the fabric of space isn't uniform and that it can impede or slow down hyperdrives. I think this was the Kathol rift book, it was part of a plot point as to why the hyperdrive was running at half speed. If this is the case it helps explain why some trips take more time then others and why there are hyperdrive trade routes. Those "trade routes" are merely corridors of space-time that has the least impedance on hyperdrives. Area's off the main trade routes impede travel more and some places like the Kathol Rift it impedes it enough to cause you to travel at half speed even if your hyperdrive is running at full power. Perhaps as you leave the galaxy the impedance becomes so great that only extremely powerful/fast hyperdrives running hot can travel at all. This would make Extra-Galactic travel take longer, cost more and be viable only for those with the power base to develop hyperdrives and ships to overcome the extreme impedance.

Anyway my two cents

[Darth Raptor]

A)Use stuff like that so you can have the retarded "lolz its grown, heh heh" idea but it still has the characteristics of normal SW tech.

The whole idea is unworkable for a slew of reasons, but chief among them is energy. They're still going to need to annihilate/decelerate/whatever it is they do to hypermatter or settle for performance values WAY below that of the Republic. It affords them no strategic or tactical advantage whatsoever. It's one think to say their stuff is made of wanktastic unobtanium composites. Hell, must of the Republic's materials science is based around composites too. But the foundries that create those materials require enormous amounts of energy, the kind that you just can't get through inefficient planetary solar collectors (i.e., leaves). At the end of the day, they're still going to have to put brakes on black holes just like the Republic. How did these guys get off their home planet again?

B) The disparity of hyperdrive speeds and hyperdrive trade lanes. I think I read something in a WEG guide (I know I know WEG) about how the fabric of space isn't uniform and that it can impede or slow down hyperdrives. I think this was the Kathol rift book, it was part of a plot point as to why the hyperdrive was running at half speed. If this is the case it helps explain why some trips take more time then others and why there are hyperdrive trade routes. Those "trade routes" are merely corridors of space-time that has the least impedance on hyperdrives. Area's off the main trade routes impede travel more and some places like the Kathol Rift it impedes it enough to cause you to travel at half speed even if your hyperdrive is running at full power. Perhaps as you leave the galaxy the impedance becomes so great that only extremely powerful/fast hyperdrives running hot can travel at all. This would make Extra-Galactic travel take longer, cost more and be viable only for those with the power base to develop hyperdrives and ships to overcome the extreme impedance.

On the contrary, intergalactic space should be the most readily navigable of all space. There's nothing there but dark matter, after all. We're scrapping the ExGal angle altogether, as it only leads to awkward ad hoc rationalizations like "lolz hyperspace barrier". Intergalactic travel isn't done because there's no impetus whatsoever to do it.

[Kartr_Kana]

That makes sense that biological organisms aren't going to be able to produce enough energy to create the "unobtanium " materials needed to rival SW's tech. Could they at least "grow" the ships computers? Something like those "bio-neural gel packs" that they started using in ST? I mean only if we really want to keep the whole Vong species and angle. Personally the only reason I kept reading them was to say I'd read them. The only thing that really interested me was the exploration of the Force. Once Anakin died all hopes I had for a better view of the Force died with him. I'd be happy to scrap it the NJO the Killics and the new RotS rehash Legacy books.

Yeah empty inter-galactic space would seem like the perfect place for hyperdrives. So just forget that part of the theory, but what about travel within the galaxy? Does it hold any merit there? It's the only thing I can come up with for how ships with supposedly the same class of hyperdrive can have varying travel times at top speed.

[Crayz9000]

I think a much healthier angle to the Vong is as follows:

Prehistory:
The Vong race emerges, going through the usual ages with a heavy emphasis on farming and agriculture, and selective breeding. Their sanitation is very good due to the use of symbiotic organisms, which keeps the death rate fairly low. However, their society is feudalized, and wars between the different fiefdoms keep occurring. War becomes a very ritualized part of society, leading to the development of the caste system.

Eventually the more curious minded in society (the emerging technocrat caste) develop gunpowder and began advancing in metallurgy. The fiefdoms that possess this technology began conquering the other, more agrarian fiefdoms. Some of the other castes, such as the warrior and shaper castes, begin to resent the technology as it makes things much less personal, but progress moves on.

As an industrial revolution occurs for the Vong, their shapers manage to develop an organic brain with immense processing power. They begin to rely on these brains for computational tasks. As a result, while they develop electricity and understand its use as far as motors and basic devices such as relays, the idea of the transistor--or even the vacuum tube--never occurs to them.

Eventually they begin using specialized breeds of brains to interface with electrical equipment. This allows the development of more and more advanced technology, although it is still limited by the slow switching time of relays, which are required to interface their brains to the machinery. As time passes, they begin to understand radioactivity and more advanced chemistry, leading to the development of rockets and fission/fusion devices. This culminates in spaceflight, and they set about colonizing their solar system although not in a way we would understand -- while their vessels are built from structural metals, and driven by chemical and nuclear means, they are controlled by brains and the individual Vong explorers survive through the means of tough, leathery creatures originally engineered to protect the Vong in harsh climates such as the polar regions and deep underwater.

After hundreds of years of relatively slow, static development in their own solar system, the Vong notice that some of their creatures in space begin to show a strange affinity to electromagnetic and gravitational forces. They encourage this affinity, eventually producing the creatures that become the yammosk and dovin basal. However, these creatures require massive amounts of energy and nutrients to produce the effects.

Eventually the dovin basals, powered by massive nutrient farms and fusion reactors and with their effects amplified by antennas developed through empirical means, enable FTL travel.

However, it should be noted that the Vong do not fully understand the underlying mechanics: they are simply content to allow things to evolve without really asking why.

Anyway, as they start to explore the nearby stars, they run into a warlike FTL race that has advanced robotics and AI to the point that their robots do all the fighting for them. The Vong, who have always believed in a symbiotic approach to technology, are immediately appalled and war breaks out. Things go very badly for the Vong at first as their history of space combat so far involved usually two ships using their dovin basals to close to docking range, and then warriors from each ship boarding and fighting at close range.

Eventually they realize (mostly by accident) that the dovin basals are also capable of accelerating rocks to incredible speeds, acting like a crude mass driver. They also discover (again by accident) the dovin basals are capable of diverting incoming fire around their ships, including laser weaponry. These and other innovations allow the Vong to turn the tide against the other race, although it is a very slow process. At the end, the other race is annihilated, and the Vong destroy most of the robotic technology although they do study some parts of it. Still, the thought of an unliving machine capable of thought is abhorrent.

Time passes, blah blah blah, their territory grows to massive size, then another technological race from the other side of the galaxy makes contact. While this race is friendly at first, the Vong discover that they also use thinking machines and declare war. This war stretches out even longer, over thousands of years, and by the time it is finished the galaxy is a ruined place with very few habitable planets left. Some Vong want to stay and rebuild, but the warrior castes, emboldened by the victory, think that the grass is greener in another nearby galaxy (the galaxy far, far away) and set out in massive worldships (literally hollowed out moons/asteroids propelled by giant dovin basals).


---

This still leaves out questions such as how the Vong relate to the Force and why they would be a threat to the Jedi, but that's what the discussion is for...

[Pelranius]

Well, I personally prefer that the Vong be made more into a sort of subversive threat to the galaxy rather than an outright invasion.

[Crayz9000]

You could do it both ways, have a subversive threat first and then several years later, the invasion shows up once the galaxy's been softened. I think that's what they were going for in Vector Prime anyway, but they failed miserably on that count -- Nom Anor, honestly, was a very interesting character but they used him very badly.

[Darth Raptor]

That makes sense that biological organisms aren't going to be able to produce enough energy to create the "unobtanium " materials needed to rival SW's tech. Could they at least "grow" the ships computers? Something like those "bio-neural gel packs" that they started using in ST?

That's actually one angle I wouldn't mind preserving. Organic computers (i.e., brains) would have an interesting array of advantages and disadvantages over and under the purely mechanical computers of the Republic (that's assuming droid brains et al aren't biomorphic anyway). You could even keep things like yammosks but retcon them into giant brains grown specifically for strategy and tactics while dispensing with the gravitic telepathy nonsense. Considering that the Republic finds brains awesome enough to put them in fighters, that's one area where meat seems to be keeping pace with metal.

I mean only if we really want to keep the whole Vong species and angle.

I believe we're going to, just in a heavily modified state. Rest assured they'll be recognizable when we're done with them.

Yeah empty inter-galactic space would seem like the perfect place for hyperdrives. So just forget that part of the theory, but what about travel within the galaxy? Does it hold any merit there? It's the only thing I can come up with for how ships with supposedly the same class of hyperdrive can have varying travel times at top speed.

I'm not sure what you're asking, as that's almost exactly the canonical rationalization. So yeah, run with it.

[Kartr_Kana]

I haven't been able to find a definitive rationalization, but I haven't been doing much with SW lately. That's why I was asking.

[Darth Raptor]

In that case, it doesn't get much more definitive than the Star Wars Technical Commentaries.