EU Fic: Prequel Trilogy Era

[Typhonis 1]

Actually it could have been the dehumanising of the clones.

"We lost 100 trilion clones in the Anthares expansion "

"Oh well contact the Kaminboans and ask when the nexy ship,emt is due."

The clones were see as trvialising life. Droids were different they were machines they were built but the clones? Organic not the same why what if regular sapients were treated like clones were?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree. Its just hard for me to believe in people really getting scared and up in arms about an enemy already causing them a headache and waging war against them for using clones, merely because its a humanitarian issue. Maybe I'm a cynic. To me the TTT implies not only would it be considered a possibly decisive yet culturally unacceptable strategic options (akin to the deployment of weapons of mass destruction), but also intolerably risky and dangerous. Mara throwing her lot in with the Rebels because Thrawn was willing "to unleash another round of Clone Wars" on the galaxy to me sounds like "I know you might think I'd sympathize with the Empire, but its playing with fire and uncontrollable and too dangerous so he must be stopped regardless of what I think of his politics." The way she says it, it doesn't sound like she thinks it'd just be bad for Thrawn to win and win more easily, or that she felt bad for clones, but almost like she felt that mass use of clones would inevitably end up with clone rebellions and renegade clones running amok - a genuine round two of the Clone Wars.

[Typhonis 1]

Clone army could have been an experiment by one of the governments that was turned into a stopgap measure. Said measure however became common practice THEN the renegade clones and such started showing up.

They were made in such numbers asnd so fast that quality control of the genome used was lessened. Good enough was the word of the day and the errors started creeping in.

Governments were warned byut they didn't give a shit .To some Clones werre like droids and who gave damn about them dieing or being killed. Then the clone rebellions began. Small at first then grwoing in frequency till disaster...the clone gain cloning center.

[Darth Raptor]

I agree. Its just hard for me to believe in people really getting scared and up in arms about an enemy already causing them a headache and waging war against them for using clones, merely because its a humanitarian issue. Maybe I'm a cynic.

No, it's a fair point.

To me the TTT implies not only would it be considered a possibly decisive yet culturally unacceptable strategic options (akin to the deployment of weapons of mass destruction), but also intolerably risky and dangerous. Mara throwing her lot in with the Rebels because Thrawn was willing "to unleash another round of Clone Wars" on the galaxy to me sounds like "I know you might think I'd sympathize with the Empire, but its playing with fire and uncontrollable and too dangerous so he must be stopped regardless of what I think of his politics." The way she says it, it doesn't sound like she thinks it'd just be bad for Thrawn to win and win more easily, or that she felt bad for clones, but almost like she felt that mass use of clones would inevitably end up with clone rebellions and renegade clones running amok - a genuine round two of the Clone Wars.

IOW, Pandora's Box. That's good, we can use that. Also, if Thrawn's gambit doesn't get nipped in the bud and fast, there's a real risk of the New Republic, Hutts, and every noble, corporation and two-bit warlord with a stake in the war following his example out of both necessity and opportunism. Carbon is cheap, and the only thing stopping someone from turning their money into a galactic class army is the threat of the universe coming down on them like a hammer. If the Republic/Empire are openly fielding clone armies again, if this is going to be devastating to all sides--including the Empire-- it needs to be stopped. Thrawn's perspective on the issue should be interesting too. He was exiled from the Ascendancy for flushing Chiss cultural norms in the pursuit of strategic coups. When he arrived on the greater galaxy's stage, perhaps he automatically assumed that the conventions of war in the Republic/Empire were similarly quaint and outmoded? Perhaps he considered himself too brilliant and too good a student of history to make the same mistakes? Also, he's no Mara. He's sure to be aware that the Empire has throughout its history drawn on a similar--if infinitely more stable-- source of manpower.

[Vehrec]

We should also consider the 'clone madness' problem, and what might happen if someone decided to make an asset of it. Mass-produce millions of clones in a matter of weeks, cyborg and drug them up like the Callex assasins from WH40k and you have a terror force that cannot be reasoned with or intimidated. If one cares only about slaughtering the enemy to buy time or to damage their infrastructure, quicker less well conditioned clones can be an effective weapon. If you can only condition them to do one thing, make it recognize and not kill their own line-they might just be useful.

[Typhonis 1]

As has been mentioned before it all can come back to Alderaan.


The wars were spreading and were noted by the Department of defense on Alderaan. A study was made and the analysis was scary .It was only a matter of time before a core world was drug into the fighting. Currently the population was ill equipped mentally , physically and materially for a war so they contacted the clone masters of Kamino with a daring idea.


With backing from the crown and many noble families a clone army was created for the defense of Alderaan. A small 3 million man force was to be the basis for a new Alderaan army to defend their world. It would be speed trained off world, equipped with the latest gear, and used as the core to train a new military made up of Alderaanian citizens. They could provide the defense until new forces were trained up it was felt. However all this fell through when the Nemodians blockaded Alderaan.

The blockade and subsequent invasion saw Alderaan throw their clone army into its first real fight a baptism of fire that culminated into the battle of the Lushankya plain outside Alderaans capital of Theed.The Space battle ended when Jedi General Qui Gon Jin rammed his dreadnought into the Nemodian flagship.This resulted in a disruption of communications between the droid armies thus allowing them to be systematically destroyed.

The clone forces were victorious but at tremendous cost. Said costs rose when Alderaan contacted the Kamino to expand the force fearing another Nemodian blockade.

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Of course with the way things are sounding with how the Jedi are being re imagined....they kinda sound like the knights Templar complete with the French and Papal betrayal.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree. Its just hard for me to believe in people really getting scared and up in arms about an enemy already causing them a headache and waging war against them for using clones, merely because its a humanitarian issue. Maybe I'm a cynic.

No, it's a fair point.

To me the TTT implies not only would it be considered a possibly decisive yet culturally unacceptable strategic options (akin to the deployment of weapons of mass destruction), but also intolerably risky and dangerous. Mara throwing her lot in with the Rebels because Thrawn was willing "to unleash another round of Clone Wars" on the galaxy to me sounds like "I know you might think I'd sympathize with the Empire, but its playing with fire and uncontrollable and too dangerous so he must be stopped regardless of what I think of his politics." The way she says it, it doesn't sound like she thinks it'd just be bad for Thrawn to win and win more easily, or that she felt bad for clones, but almost like she felt that mass use of clones would inevitably end up with clone rebellions and renegade clones running amok - a genuine round two of the Clone Wars.

IOW, Pandora's Box. That's good, we can use that. Also, if Thrawn's gambit doesn't get nipped in the bud and fast, there's a real risk of the New Republic, Hutts, and every noble, corporation and two-bit warlord with a stake in the war following his example out of both necessity and opportunism. Carbon is cheap, and the only thing stopping someone from turning their money into a galactic class army is the threat of the universe coming down on them like a hammer. If the Republic/Empire are openly fielding clone armies again, if this is going to be devastating to all sides--including the Empire-- it needs to be stopped. Thrawn's perspective on the issue should be interesting too. He was exiled from the Ascendancy for flushing Chiss cultural norms in the pursuit of strategic coups. When he arrived on the greater galaxy's stage, perhaps he automatically assumed that the conventions of war in the Republic/Empire were similarly quaint and outmoded? Perhaps he considered himself too brilliant and too good a student of history to make the same mistakes? Also, he's no Mara. He's sure to be aware that the Empire has throughout its history drawn on a similar--if infinitely more stable-- source of manpower.

So you think the major risk should be one of escalation, as opposed to clones freaking out or rebelling en masse like biological analogs of the sci-fi stereotypical droid revolution? Not that the latter can't be a side-risk. What do you think?

[Darth Raptor]

So you think the major risk should be one of escalation, as opposed to clones freaking out or rebelling en masse like biological analogs of the sci-fi stereotypical droid revolution? Not that the latter can't be a side-risk. What do you think?

Yes, you've put it more succinctly than I ever could. The three cons of clone warfare (ethics, escalation, hazards) aren't mutually exclusive either, but I do imagine that escalation is the biggest one, given the utter reliability of GeNodes and K-types.

[Typhonis 1]

Cloning also began to take a darker aspect in the medical business. Cloned limbs and organs could be harvested from them and were seen as a 'better' alternative to cybernetic parts. There was also the slavery aspect which did not sit well with some Core worlders.


In other areas automation was gaining favor as was ecidenced by the expanding armies of the Nemodians and later the creation of the Katana fleet.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So you think the major risk should be one of escalation, as opposed to clones freaking out or rebelling en masse like biological analogs of the sci-fi stereotypical droid revolution? Not that the latter can't be a side-risk. What do you think?

Yes, you've put it more succinctly than I ever could. The three cons of clone warfare (ethics, escalation, hazards) aren't mutually exclusive either, but I do imagine that escalation is the biggest one, given the utter reliability of GeNodes and K-types.

Plus its hard to frame clone rebellions and freakouts as being organic threats to the galaxy proper comparable to general war itself, and if they could be that severe, there'd clearly be no object in using them (clones that is).

[Illuminatus Primus]

In other areas automation was gaining favor as was ecidenced by the expanding armies of the Nemodians and later the creation of the Katana fleet.

I'm not having a B1-esque droid swarm of retard robots. I do like the idea of battle droids in the Dark Empire, Dark Empire II roles, like the SD-series. Heavy squad and platoon level support, filling in between armored vehicles and infantry.

[Typhonis 1]

The Bactoid one series basic utility droid was one of Bactoid industries biggest sellers. These human sized droids were capable of using most gear that humanoids could and were capanle of working in the same environments. The droids were known for the 200 hour battery pack they wore that contained not only a radio command unit but also their bioggest selling part a rapidly exchangeable skill set. Fully automatous they were used in a multitude of roles.

The very same droid that was using a pallet jack to move a load onto a transport could quickly and easily be programed to pilot said transport in as little as 10 minutes. Some individuals went so far as to arm some with stunners and use them as secuirty.

However thier faillings as front line combatants were made painfully obvious in the invasion of Alderaan. In the intitial fighting they did excellent work against the law enforcement and civilian resistance they faced. The fact they could also use the same military equipment that other humanoids could also made them a popular early choice .However against clone troopers they stood little chance.

Lightly built , unarmored , no internal weapons, and with a modsest power supply. Alderaans clone army quickly overcame the droids and wiped them out when they losty the coordination the command ship supplied. They also suffered from the way they were built. They couldn't be used successfully in exortic atmospheres or even hard vaccume of space.

Though they were deeemed failures as soldiers the droid armies still had use for them, prison guards, pilots, technicians and a multitude of other support roles were filled by them and even now long after the fighting is done. The Bactoid series of droid is still a common sight in some sectors of the galaxy

[Pelranius]

Thrawn willing to use clone armies could aggravate tensions in the Empire between the military and the Ruling Council, as well as their constituent factions.

As for droids, how about platforms like the Shadow Droids which incorporated some element of organic soldiers to the unit, thus possibly imbuing it with ideological loyalty if utilized with the brains of COMPFORCE troopers, for example? It would be appealing to leaders who are worried about their subordinates going warlord or defecting to another camp.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think one obvious angle is Thrawn thought not only a clone escalation could win him his war, but also create an undisputed Thrawnist component to the Armed Forces.

[Agent Sorchus]

The Clone wars and the Fall of the Republic

The fall of the Republic and rise of the Empire is not the story of the absolute necessity of ‘democracy’ to fall unto despotism. Rather it is a tale of the strengths of the republic, and from this galactic society, being subverted by one man. For 25000 years the Republic was lent honor and nobility by the Jedi; valor from the republic’s explorers and navy; an Iron Will from the Mandalorians and other barbarians; virtue from the Caamasi; and patience from the Sith. At the core of the Republics strength was resiliency and flexibility, with various internal Structures ready to give or take power and to lend support to another strained structure in times of need. This system of compromises worked in a definite cyclical pattern, always returning to equilibrium.

In the lead up to the clone wars this pattern had been slightly upset by various events. It was well within the republics safety area of variance but it was very much so an impediment for a Crisis, let alone one of the clone wars magnitude. Various examples of the power structures that were not in harmony were:
The Trade Federation => under an economic hammer in the outer rim and Colonies Regions
The Jedi Order => was slowly preparing for the eventual retirement of Grand Master Yoda
The Clonemasters => supporting the militarist camp, highly prolific Mercenaries

The leading Atrocities: Caamas and Emberlene

The absolute destruction of Caamas was the spark that drove the Rim to Chaos. The sudden assault was almost as terrifying as the fact the Jedi were unable to predict it and respond. Many of the Rim states and sectors hastily bought up the services of the Clonemasters and their armies for defense of the rim from possible galactic intrusions. Those enlarged standing armies got Emberlene into mischief. Deciding that their core-ward brethren were easy targets of intimidation and piracy, thus Emberlene’s elite units began faceless assaults upon their neighbors. (the Jedi did not come out and challenge Emberlene due to the faceless nature of Emberlene’s fights.)

In a very short period of time those faceless raids the Minstryl drove several TradeFed subsidiaries out of business. The entire Sector was forced to make a massive reprisal. A stunningly huge and efficient clone army devastated Emberlene in a rapid campaign, the Jedi moved to prevent the total destruction of Emberlene.

The Emberlene Reprisals are often considered the opening of the Clone Wars, however it was three years until the next open conflict utilized the clonemaster’s troops. One of the mercenaries who served in this opening conflict was the soon to be General Grievious. Years later Grievious was the commander who brought the general conflict of the clone wars to the core in an opening assault and shelling of a group of core planets, an event that marked the final cataclysmic clone war.

Palpatine’s Success

The rise of the Empire came about due to Palpatine’s machinations, the critical timing the clone wars happened in, and the strength by which Palpatine lead. Palpatine presented a strong enough pillar of pollitical might that when the various structures that held up the republic were toppled by Palpatine they then fell into support of Palpatine’s Empire. Galactic Civilization compromised to ensure it’s own survival, as it has done and shall always do.


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A little vission of the clone wars that I had after reading the thread, any general complaints? I tried to make it as general as possible to fit in with a cleaned finalized timeline later.

[Typhonis 1]

The great debate of the cClone Wars was how did it erupt with such ferocity. Arlan of Timberlile in his book Fall of the Republic laid the claim that Palpatine was solely responsible for the Clone Wars and rise of the Empire. However this doesn't explain why the Jedi order failed to respond untill after the destruction of thier monestaries on Alderaan and Naboo. Nor does it explain why the Rim Alliance , without reason or cause, attacked the Corellian holdings in the Holt dwarf Galaxy.

No the causes must be looked for even further back to when the first alliances were made nearly 700 years earlier. It was these that caused the wars to so quickly expand and it was the attitude of the sentients that made up the populations of said aliances. They had forgotten what a hoprror war could be and the propoganda of the Jedi of the time romanticised it. Many of them welcomed it.

So is it any wnder that when Alderaan requested aid from the other worlds it was allied with to fight and then 'punish' the Nemodians said other worlds eagerly joined in? That when the Alderaan aliance apparently overstepped their bounds during the fighting that the Nemodians allies rushed to their aide?

No Palpatine didn't orchestrate the Clone Wars, he profitted from the oprotunitoes they created.

[Darth Raptor]

I'm not sure exactly what IP's intentions are for the Wars, but there appears to have been two distinct series of conflicts; one fought from 11-1 BrS and another from 9-16 rS with the climax somewhere in 10-14 rS. It seems as if the Empire was established either in 14 or 16.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That was early, I'm now operating on the idea of a "meta-conflict" where literally everything is in dispute. Basically at the top level we're looking at a 25-30 year long series of wars, akin to the "Thirty Year War" concept of Hoth, but the historiographical and popular consensus has not been achieved in the 20-40 years since the era (the OT-NJO period). Therefore, "what were the Clone Wars?" and even "are they Clone Wars?" depends on who you ask from a regional, class, political, and generational perspective. The definite facts I've achieved are this - the wars were characterized by the destabilizing and unprecedented proliferation of clone warfare, opposition to clones in the public eye, unprecedented cultural and political destabilization, Palpatine being the key instigator, and broad participation by the Jedi Order. Basically, I'm trying to squeeze in every conception of the Clone Wars, even both Zahn's and Lucas' from different points of view (although the Lucas-vision will probably be inserted the most modified, given that I'm discarding the confused concept of eeeevviiillll corporations with droid armies and yay good guys think cloning is great!; rather the Republic will reluctantly, with concealment, and without publicity end up relying on clones).

I have to somewhat try to get into a fictional historian's head in writing fluff, and that effects my conception of the macrohistory and major plot considerably. The era from 20-30 years after Palpatine's birth to the end of the NJO crisis and aftermath is generally known as the Palpatinic Era; the Clone Wars are the defining event of the entire period, some historians will look at every successive events as following from their precedent and setting-of-the-stage, with it effecting galacticopolitics indefinitely. The "Clone Wars" as a historical epoch is the second sub-phase of the Palpatinic Era (itself broken up into the "rise and fall of Palpatine," and the aftermath phases).

That's a good contribution, Sorchus. I'll try to drop some lines of it into my fluff.

[Typhonis 1]

Thats what I was trying to show in my snippet. The Rim problems attack a Core planet and you have the multritude of alliances that had been drawnb up over the years drag many many many players into the Clone Wars . Much like most of Europe was drug into World War 1.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I want Palpatine to be nearly or in his 40s by the beginning of the Clone Wars, so he could have been influential already (if behind the curtain) in setting up and causing the Clone Wars to originally break out. However, certain aspects and trends should predate him: resentment of and/or cloistered elitism by the Jedi, fundamental structural vulnerabilities and compromises to the Republic, the increased reliance of the outlying regions on mercenary, clone, droid-augmented for-hire and proliferated concentrations of armed force, some class resentment and regional tension between rich and poor - Rim and Core, of course latent power hunger and competitive pressure amongst factions and institutions of the ruling classes, and millennia-long infiltration and preparations of the Order of the Sith Lords.

[Typhonis 1]

The Rim is the frontier much like the Old west while the Core is the Eastern part of the US and Europe....


What if Palpatine orchestrated things by deadlocking what the senate was doing so the Republic couldn't respond much like in the movies. He could easily build up resentment till it boils over....the Rim alliances began hiring,building and cloning armies.

Cloning wan't even seen as an evil since Mass cloning was never atempted.....two groups come to mind when dealing with the Clones. The Mandalorians...a way to regain their former glory and the Kaminoans who createde a relatively quick masss cloning process.