EUFic General Fic Fluff and Background

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think there's no reason to not keep him from Naboo (even if that's not where his family is from).

[Darth Raptor]

The reason we don't hear much about Naboo is because it's in the Mid Rim and, apart from Imperial trivia and an historically-significant blockade by the TradeFed, not really all that important.

On that note, let's ditch the retarded cover-up. Apart from being impossible even for him, it's completely unnecessary. Dr. Squeaky Clean doesn't need to hide his background and trying to do so would only invite the scrutiny he's presumably trying to avoid. It's a post facto rationalization for EU authors and thus main characters knowing nothing about him and being forbidden from filling in the blanks. We are not similarly constrained. The fact is, the Throne of Galactic Emperor was never intended to be hereditary and, on their own, members of Palpatine's family are not a credible threat to the likes of Pestage, Isard and Dangor. Ederlathh and Trioculous are merely pawns of their respective political movements.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The reason we don't hear much about Naboo is because it's in the Mid Rim and, apart from Imperial trivia and an historically-significant blockade by the TradeFed, not really all that important.

On that note, let's ditch the retarded cover-up. Apart from being impossible even for him, it's completely unnecessary. Dr. Squeaky Clean doesn't need to hide his background and trying to do so would only invite the scrutiny he's presumably trying to avoid. It's a post facto rationalization for EU authors and thus main characters knowing nothing about him and being forbidden from filling in the blanks. We are not similarly constrained. The fact is, the Throne of Galactic Emperor was never intended to be hereditary and, on their own, members of Palpatine's family are not a credible threat to the likes of Pestage, Isard and Dangor. Ederlathh and Trioculous are merely pawns of their respective political movements.

I do like the idea that House of Palpatine is obscure and secretive, though not that no one knows who Palpatine is or where he came from. And I agree about the Throne and heredity; I've toyed with the idea it was deliberately left uninheritable because the Republicans figured the Empire and the Throne was just a lifetime achievement award for Palpatine and the old constitution would revert upon his death. Of course by the time it did happen the ruling class they convinced themselves was controlling him had advanced the Imperial system to where it could not easily be reverted (to say nothing of the fact that the Insiders were running things to ensure Palpatine's return to power).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Clone Warfare

Introduction

Clone warfare has earned an arguably deserved reputation for being a barbaric, unethical, socially-disruptive, and inevitably bloody art of war. The use of clones is most notably associated with the eponymous Clone Wars of 11-1 BrS and 9-16 rS (10-14 rS is considered the period of most intense fighting, with the "end of major combat operations" in late 14 rS). However, contrary to popular belief, clone warfare in the broadest sense predates the Foundation of the Republic and has been present at some level for almost the entire history of the Galactic Union. This seeming contradiction between intent and fact, between the bright and sunlit world of public understanding and the ugly world of behind-the-curtain reality is perhaps best represented by the Galactic Empire's clones. Despite the fact that, ostensibly, the raison d'être of Palpatine's New Order (the original program being launched shortly after his election in 3 rS) was to settle the unsatisfied quandries of the Republic, acutely including the devastating proliferation of clone forces, the Imperial State continued research and application of clone technology and the Armed Forces continued the study and implementation of clone warfare in the steps paved by its predecessor in the Military Establishment. Similarly, even the New Republic Defense Forces made strategic studies and contingency plans calling for clone manufacture and deployment in the event of certain war scenarios. By far the most common use of clones was for secret forces or unquestionably loyal units of automatons, special ordered by states and individuals to carry-out their black plots.

Notable cloners throughout the history of the Republic include the Biologicists of the Second Rakatan Empire, the Cylons of New Kobol, Constables of Homunculi, the Cranscoc of Cartao, the Spaarti of Spaartia, the Kaminoans of Kamino, the Khommites of Khomm, and the Ancients of Dantooine. In many cases cloners ostensibly found markets in biological and medical services, including reproductive and therapeutic cloning, gene therapy, and other advanced biological applications. The Clone Wars stereotype of the evil Clonemaster and his diabolical creations is often inconsistent with the facts. The Khommite cloners were a state-run public service, while the Kaminoan cloners were actually a number of seperate private cloning and biological service companies, who simply provided the number one export from their state and top source of state income. The Cranscoc were permitted a license for cloning and were primarily known for their single Cartao Creations company, which dominated the state. And the Spaarti coalesced their cloning operations into a state-run corporation with a galactic market. As Dexter Jettster (the ci-devant semi-legendary mercenary warlord and gunrunner of the Outer Rim and the popular owner of the famous Jettster's Bar and Grill, and allegedly - but denied under the Empire - best friend to General Obi-Wan Kenobi), author of the Memories of a Bartender and Chef off of Glitanni Esplenade was quoted as saying, "You have your Cranscoc and Spaarti, they only want your hard earned credit, and don't care where in the Nine Corellian Hells you got it or how wet the work is that you need their handiwork for: you get what you pay for. You've got the Khommites, looking for a donation to grow the next generation, and it takes quite the Life Day present in order to get them to look the other way and forget their stuffy scruples, but they treat product like their kids - literally. And you got your Kaminoans, who want your cash only so they can get you out of their long faces and get back - with your wallet - to their obsessive art. So are you looking for fast food, the mother's touch, or the artist's masterpiece?"

Clones of the Clone Wars

The Republic Authority and other jurisdictions, in many cases throughout Union history, conveniently overlooked the clear ethical issues regarding slavery and violation of sapient rights surrounding clone manufacture. For much of the history of the Republic, clone warfare was illegal, and existed only at the margins of society and civilization. However, there were periods of clone warfare by states on the verge of conquest - later justified as "exigencies of national survival" or the like. The Republic had a habit of overlooking inconvenient truths such as these when perpetrated by their allies during crisis or by the sufficiently powerful and influential, provided care was taken for judicious concealment and plausible deniability. However, the time prior the pre-Clone Wars saw a relaxation of legal standards and open acknowledgment of clone manpower. Artificial standards and pseudoscientific tests, among them, the infamous Voight-Kampff Test and Diagnostic Criteria for Will-Sapience, became de rigeuer excuses for dimissing clone sapient rights and encouraged deliberate lobotomization of baseline sapient traits in the clones to further qualify them for legal license (famously denounced by Mon Mothma as the "mass mental-maiming of countless, sapient, free-by-right beings; one of the most grossly horrifying atrocities against nature and law in history" - whom also directly and personally laid blame squarely on Palpatine).

The budding crises of the pre-Clone Wars era included the proliferation of clone forces. Historians still strongly debate the influence of the shadow hand of Palpatine on this trend, like many in the pre-Clone Wars period. The general truth of Palpatine's fanastically effective and widespread manipulation - while concealing awareness and agency - in orchestrating the crises and wars which precipitated his rise to power is indisputed and scarcely could be, ever since the discovery of the data crypts of Prakith and Eriadu (often exaggerated and generalized as the twin depositories of hidden truth on Palpatine, Sithian and secular; the reality is while they were important the case establishing Palpatine's war guilt and subversion is based on a more broad foundation, see Rodeberht Conquista's The Great Subversion). However, the Revisionist school maintains deep doubts about his ability to singlehandedly drive the pre-Clone Wars macrohistorical events and trends. The fact that remains the era was characterized by the increasing marginalization of the already weak Republic Military Establishment (RME), the standing professional armed forces maintained by the Republic Authority since the Foundation. This was accompanied by increased reliance, especially in the Rim, on the private militaries commissioned by local powers, leagues, conglomerates, powerful magnates, and even devolved government deprived of Republic support. Typically - but not always - these militaries commissioned on an ad hoc basis. But as the state of things wore on, major sponsors developed close relationship with the cloners, and developed their clone forces into military powerhouses. They then contracted their services to the lesser sponsors, replacing the ad hoc and random forces with a consolidated number of professional armies-for-hire. The Clonemasters were born. The magister simulum ("Master of the Clones" in Classical High Galactic) was typically an experienced warlord or general of the Outer Rim security services, mercenary companiees, or retired officers of member states' armed forces.

...a tease. I'm working on this and the last draft will differ considerably (the Clone Wars is a companion piece focusing on galacticopolitics and macrohistory, as opposed to the more tight-focus of the clones and clone warfare itself documented here).

[Darth Hoth]

Right, back again. Sorry for not taking this earlier.

Yeah, but how would such an Order exist? You'd have to have proto-knights who were swearing fealty to a liege of sorts and being granted fiefs in return for service. Therefore by necessity you'd have to at one point have the Grand Master's or Order's legal predecessor be a feudal liege and have dominion over territory he was granting to his vassals as fiefs.

See above. Its all good and fine to say its a holdover, but if they really do rule fiefs in fact, and owe fealty to a liege, than its not really a formality or leftover, is it? There are real legal obligations.

I meant that it would be a parallel structure outside the formal Order of modern times, as a holdover from an earlier polity. Though I can drop it altogether.

Sure, but as I said, having heredity enshrined goes against a on-the-books meritocratic order and is contrary to the possibility a Jedi's heirs are incompetent or unsuited or not Force sensitive.

Well, I would imagine that Force-sensitivity is inherited at least most of the time (as the EU has it). There can be exceptions or Jedi lines "dying out" (Again, story potential ), but the Force should not be a "one-off" infection jumping into a single generation here and there at random.

If you don't mind, I'd like to discuss where we'd actually like to frame and establish it.

No, certainly, I agree. That is a major point in the PrequelFic universe, and something we should have meshed out rather clearly before we start with the actual story. I just had not covered it in detail in the draft.

I think a big problem here is we're all still largely in the dark and working with diffuse and guesswork as to how the actual society in SW works between the city-to-planet level and the galactic institutions level.

I mean there might be several layers of government going both ways. In the Republic, you have the all-galaxy government and ministries. You then have the regional governments, which are devolved governments dealing with regional issues and with associated security and defense formations (the various different tiers occupy different competencies and overlap, but do not "outrank" each other). Below that of course is the sectoral devolved governments and security apparatus. There are on the order of ten thousand sectors (I think at least fourteen thousand sectors, with two thousand per galactic region - the "regions" containing "thousands" of sectors the Imp Sourcebook describes).

Now the member states are semi-sovereign in their own right, with the galactic union being a fully-fledged federal government and the member states having particular prerogatives and powers and jurisdictions guaranteed under the constitution. They themselves have wide discretion within certain limits and laws to conduct their own affairs and to select senators to represent their interests. They also select delegates to the assemblies of the various devolved governments to which they belong. The member state itself may govern anywhere from a handful to maybe a few thousand permanently inhabited star systems in its own right as part of its integral territory. Among star systems (the only real major fundamental unit of territory in an astrographic context), you can have habitable planets and moons, space colonies on gas giant planets, terrestrial planets, moons, comets, asteroids, dwarf planets, etc., and space stations. Then you can have uninhabited/transiently inhabited star systems; basically property. You can have a situation where Member State A controls System X as a part of its integral sovereign territory, and Citizen 1 of Member State B owns System X as private property, consistent with the laws and regulations and tax codes of Member State A. The member states may have their own federal government system, and may have their own constitution within broad limits set under federal guarantees of civil or sapient rights. They may commission their own armed forces.

Now you also have the other Internal Areas, which are not member states. They may belong to broad categories of territory. Many are probably historically small, immature, dependent polities, which are often governed as mandates. These mandates may be held in trust and governed directly by the Republic Authority (through the responsible devolved government and its attendant level of colonial administration). Then there are resettled colonies and other given entities (like the U.S. insular areas and UK crown dependencies). Others may be assigned to member states individually or even as condominions. Then you have non-self-governing territories which have no direct relationship with the Republic Authority, but rather are colonies or member states or clients of the member states themselves in their own right (not on the Republic's behalf as an assigned mandate).

Things get tricky when you realize there is this level of complexity and greater. Great Powers are individual Member States with extraordinary concentrations of wealth and power. They may have already controlled a constellation of treaty-allied powers and trading partners before the Republic (compare to the Italian Socii of pre-Sulla Republican Rome) and been leaders in supranational and regional unions or organizations (compare to the European Union, the Commonwealth of Independent States, Mercosur, NAFTA, etc.). These Member States have well-defined clienteles of lesser states around them (but are fully-fledged Member States in their own right, NOT official, de jure client states or dependencies), and may even tried to restrain them and their membership in the Great Power's Senior Senatorial delegation with treaties (which may be unconstitutional in fact).

Of course even this system outlined is highly generalizing, and across a million member states, fifty million or more dependent polities, and unknown number of external associated and independent states, and tens of thousands of devolved governments across a thousand generations of historical cyclical trends and erstwhile crises, there's a lot of room for variation, transition, and complexity.

Good stuff, I agree with this model.

The military is very odd in this system. The Republic of course controls armed forces with a pan-galactic nigh-universal jurisdiction and area of responsibility. But in essence, with their state being essentially self-contained and universal within its area of the universe, has no real mandate to conduct genuinely expeditionary operations. Its job is to defend against the occasional barbarian raid from the halo (or even the void) and otherwise to keep the peace and maintain the security and stability of the galactic balance of power; it is an essentially quasi-paramilitary/gendarme force if one compares the Republic as a whole to a contemporary terrestrial nation-state. Quoting Dr. C. Saxton:

In a galactic society, enormous resources are potentially available to criminals, insurrectionists, centrifugal political movements, or even mutinous armed forces. The ruling government needs possession of immodestly powerful vessels in order to cow or convincingly overcome all possible threats to the peace, preferably by means of preventative intimidation. Assertion of control over spacelanes and maintaining the security of fixed assets demands vaster resources than staging spasmodic and opportunistic raids to deny control to another force. The Imperial Starfleet was not built merely to fight an equal force; it exists for the more extensive task of sustaining social and economic equilibrium across the entire galactic civilisation. The rebels' accusation that the Starfleet was designed in overkill as an instrument of terror is unfair; physical and psychological dominance are essential to the role of such a security force.

However, the central military establishment from Coruscant will concern itself primarily with pan-galactic policy issues. It will concern itself with the training and equipment and organization of formations throughout the galaxy; but those units assigned to "colonial service" within the devolved-government's jurisdictions will be responsible to local strategic policy. At the all-galactic level, intervention will be infrequent, when lower echelons fail at their duty, or policing such concerns as pan-galactic piracy and criminal or subversive elements. The regions and sectors may raise colonial forces of their own as auxiliaries to the colonial service assigned units of the Republic armed forces. Further, the Member States will raise their own armed forces; the Great Powers may be capable of coordinating defense policy with its attendant constellation of states, developing a common defense force and command with full expeditionary capability, protecting the assets of the Power and its subordinates throughout the galaxy, and securing basing rights and legal and political prerogatives in devolved governments.

Good stuff.

How do you envision military conflict between member states? Is it semi-common but low-key, "War of Assassins" Dune-style, with small contests between rival powers limited by form and/or the desire not to get revealed to the public? Is it rare, but with larger conflicts when it does happen? Is it unheard of entirely, with the time before the Clone Wars/Dark Times being a Lucasy pacifist utopia to most of the galaxy and the military establishment mostly being a waste of money or a police force nabbing a few pirates every now and then? How does the Republic and its members work with insular or downright hostile neighbours like the Chiss or the Mersons?

I still think the idea of a personal oath is quite premodern and unnecessary and unsuited for a Jedi Order consistent with admirable qualities and principles. I think vaguer concepts of constitutional or canon law and traditional prerogatives are more compelling. Perhaps Kaan invoked since lapsed constitutional prerogatives of the Grand Master?

I suppose I can work with that as well.

Meh, it should at least encourage liberal democracy, or whatever the appropriate cultural equivalent - the idea that the rulers should acquire the consent of the ruled, and that laws should be consistent and fair is hardly radical. And the fact is there is a Supreme Court; clearly individual citizens have some Republic-level civil, civic, and sapient rights.

I always figured the prequel-era Supreme Court to be more a matter of arbitration between member polities, or perhaps a constitutional court, rather than one dealing with private citizens. Though I agree, the ideals of the Republic should likely be democratic. But it should not be able to directly enforce them, unless there are very serious violations of the fundamental rights it grants its citizens (it should not quite be a UN, but not a state with direct control over its members, either). I imagine there would be lengthy procedures before any decision would be taken, particularly if an offending state was protected by a Power.

Furthermore, the Republic is by far the dominant galaxy-bestriding institution. However, especially as you go further out, the number of member states as a percentage of polities may decline, with an increasing number of unincorporated states, be they client states, associated states, or outright independent states. You don't HAVE to be part of the Republic, much less a voting member.

How common would non-aligned polities be, though, especially as they tend to diminish in importance the further out you go? Known isolationists or xenophobes like the Chiss are a given, but should there be major polities outside the Republican structure? Or do you imagine them as merely a number of insignificant end-of-nowheres in the farthest Rim?

Right. I think Alderaan should be standard-barer of the human Core worlds.

Of their high ideals, certainly. At the same time, they should be somewhat less "hippie" than in the canon - be prepared to clear ground to build cities, even if there was a meadow of beautiful flowers there, &c.

How about a UK type government, with a House of Knights and a House of Commons, with the Grand Master or High Council sovereign (represented by a Governor?).

Hm, that would be acceptable, I suppose. I presume you are talking about Britain traditionally, not as it is today when the House of Lords is basically a rubber stamp for the fully democratic administration. The Jedi should be allowed to wield some power on their own planet, at least.

A lot this is produced from notes and concepts, and a lot of discussions with Publius and others. If you could, I could really use more help on the Clone Wars in the other thread. I'd like to come up with a convincing link between the Thrawn Trilogy and the Clone Wars (though I am cludging both Zahn's version with the Lucas' version - with Palpatine acclaiming as Emperor at the end of destroying the Republic's constitution with extraordinary war powers; though fighting against clones, not droids, and although deploying clones cynically himself - perhaps the Jedi Order's clone commission by Dooku is used against them).

I shall look at the thread and see what I can contribute.

Yeah, you see what I'm getting at? We don't have to clean-slate things, or even completely repudiate stuff. We just don't need the Jedi at the top being like ANAKIN IS JESUS YAY. We can have some semi-nutty monks who think he is a prophesied messiah and have Mace Windu as Grand Inquisitor be a Jedi hardliner and political animal who has contempt for LucasJedi mysticism doctrinally. Juice it up, he isn't just a dick to Anakin for being a dick, he thinks he's letting a bunch of crazy oracle nonsense go to his head.

That was why I named him Grand Inquisitor in my draft; it fits with his hardliner canon portrayal and disapproval of Anakin, and goes some way towards explaining it. And LucasJedi can be fun, as stated. They would be rather close to the fringe of the Order, though; but then again, perhaps the Clone Wars trigger a Jedi religious revival if it coincides with some prophecy or another, making them more important (the strengthening of the mystic/fundie aspect of the Order might well be part of why it becomes less well liked). When there are large-scale disorders, people typically turn to religion and those who are religious already become more extreme.

Right, which eliminates the essential value of most Abrahamic ritual and worship.

Well, yes.

Well I'd throwaway the Lucas "only Qui-Gon figured it out" crap. I'd make it a special Jedi thing. And no, I wouldn't let other people come back. Its a burden for a Jedi for a special purpose, and they cannot remain long. Perhaps to a Force sensitives or in special circumstances non sensitives can appear transiently once or right after death. Obi-Wan had to stick around for Luke and it was clearly special, he had to leave in Heir to the Empire.

I did not mean that they should come back; I agree that should be a rather special thing, for the greatest Knights, perhaps with "returning" Jedi being the subject of religious/quasi-religious veneration. What I did mean to say was that the Force evidently does not "kill" their souls or disapparate them into buddhist annihilation of the self; they have an afterlife to live in beyond the mortal life. That, I think we should keep; it would be rather unfair if only Jedi had prospects for a life beyond death and others were obliterated from existence.

Right. They consider the Force sensitivity a burden and responsibility as much as - if not more than - a blessing and gift. They should hold the practitioners to high standards of conduct, ethical strength, and philosophical purity.

Right, with appropriate religious veneration for the Force.

I do think the Jedi by virtue of their age and size and circumstance are more likely to have mysticized and ritualized their practices and pomp and circumstance. The fundamental difference between the Banite Sith and the Jedi Order is that the Sith consider the Force to be a tool for the pursuit of power, and that power is its own end; the Jedi believe that their talent must be subordinated to self-control and bound to service.

It is more than that to me; the Jedi evidently considers the Force to have a will of its own, which they serve. They view it as sentient and set above themselves, a deity (though impersonal) to be followed. The Sith only view it as a tool and refuse to recognise its will and associated doctrines.

I didn't mean to imply that at all. I think Publius did a great job of avoiding preachiness and "THIS IS HOW I THINK" in his fiction. I have other sources of influence which while interesting in tone and form, are difficult to tolerate through their political proselytizing.

It was a joke; I am sorry if it was not funny.

What sources are you speaking of? Are they available online?

Yeah, but I'd rather the oath be more nebulous than I MUST SERVE THE WILL OF THE GRAND MASTER. His ability to declare a state of canon law where he can command the Knights on his own from his chair at the head of the Order should to be stretched and controversial. Constitutional exigencies.

I suppose it can be modified.

Honestly, I'm talking out of my ass. The best authority I'm aware of is probably Publius. You could shoot him a line looking for good sources on ecclesiology.

I shall look around, then, and maybe ask him if I do not find anything.

[Kartr_Kana]

IP, Hoth this is great stuff as always, but do you think that there's anyway it could be consolidated (the other fluff threads as well) in one spot so those of us who are trying to wade through multiple pages of discussion on three different threads can get caught up?

Anyways thanks guys this stuff is awesome and should have been done a long time ago so we wouldn't have the likes of traviss running around.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This thread is supposed to be the final product depository, instead of the debate thread. I admit its gotten a bit out of hand, but I'll leave Crayz, Raptor, and Hoth to give their thoughts on the matter.

[Kartr_Kana]

so this has everything that's been decided so far? Mmm I guess I'll just have to slog through it this weekend

[Darth Hoth]

IP, Hoth this is great stuff as always, but do you think that there's anyway it could be consolidated (the other fluff threads as well) in one spot so those of us who are trying to wade through multiple pages of discussion on three different threads can get caught up?

Anyways thanks guys this stuff is awesome and should have been done a long time ago so we wouldn't have the likes of traviss running around.

The fluff pieces (thus far works in progress, most of them) have been gathered under the EU-Fic label in the wikia. You can read them there, without the extraneous discussion.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I meant that it would be a parallel structure outside the formal Order of modern times, as a holdover from an earlier polity. Though I can drop it altogether.

If the modern order assumes predecessor state political prerogatives as a general rule, than they are part of the modern order's constitution.

Well, I would imagine that Force-sensitivity is inherited at least most of the time (as the EU has it). There can be exceptions or Jedi lines "dying out" (Again, story potential ), but the Force should not be a "one-off" infection jumping into a single generation here and there at random.

I agree, but I'd like to tone down the more exaggerated and simple-minded concept of obviously-intended purely-genetic inheritance from the EU. Especially I would like to tonedown whole Jedi-descendant subspecies. Anyway, the fact that the Order is concerned with Force sensitivity as a fundamental measuring stick for qualification of full membership necessarily will prevent formal or direct noble-title style inheritance if Force sensitivity is not strictly inherited.

No, certainly, I agree. That is a major point in the PrequelFic universe, and something we should have meshed out rather clearly before we start with the actual story. I just had not covered it in detail in the draft.

Well would you like to start a second draft, or should I?

Good stuff, I agree with this model.

Good. It does a pretty good job of instilling realism and verisimilitude and reconciling depictions while making for a sufficiently alien and not too derivative political system. The only thing its short on is simplicity and transparency. A thought I had was merely organizing and mobilizing for genuinely pan-galactic policies or reforms or war in our understanding of it will be traumatic and dramatic upheaval for them. Imagine how many traditional constitutional and political compromise toes will get stepped on issuing basic war executive orders. One realizes that relative to our society, the Clone Wars could very well have been relatively bloodless and undramatically altered the big numbers of population, HDI, economics, etc. But changing things from the ossified and utterly hardened customary way-things-are will be dramatic and frightening to them. Of course something can be absolutely devastating while being relatively meaningless, like the torching of any given world. I think one of the really interesting angles is the big-picture realization of how history, tradition, culture, and change all intersect and how individuals shaped by their society and part of events are affected and respond to all of it.

How do you envision military conflict between member states? Is it semi-common but low-key, "War of Assassins" Dune-style, with small contests between rival powers limited by form and/or the desire not to get revealed to the public?

That's one idea. A good one, I think, in certain circumstances and amongst certain players. I mean HRH Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan received special training and conditioning so that she could not be tortured for sensitive information.

Is it rare, but with larger conflicts when it does happen? Is it unheard of entirely, with the time before the Clone Wars/Dark Times being a Lucasy pacifist utopia to most of the galaxy and the military establishment mostly being a waste of money or a police force nabbing a few pirates every now and then?

I think the Republic's main job is to keep the trains running on time and keep everything from getting out of hand. There's obviously a strong incentive toward unity and relative peace. The Republic exists to guard the common welfare. Of course, on a grand scheme this means that what we consider devestating warfare could be common place to them. At any given time there may be thousands of world under armed occupation, suppressing insurgencies, etc. I imagine that conflict is generally suppressed to very localized and brief open conflicts (think Georgia-Russia), followed by Republic and third party peacekeeping and resolution. Other than that, secret War of Assassins is a possibility, as is general terrorism; proxy war through privateers, terrorists, insurgents, and rebels; and of course plain old rebellions, revolutions, civil conflicts. You'd see a lot of disputes and peacekeeping by the Republic. Other than that I can see a handful of region-scale wars during the First Republic period which is as bad as it gets. Regional wars being something like the Sith Wars, the Light and Darkness War maybe (perhaps just a Jedi-darksider tiff?) or the Mandalorian Wars, as opposed to the galactic wars of the Clone Wars and Civil Wars - the former being considered "full-scale" or "general" or "total" (relative to their history, but not qualifying according to a proportional comparison to our own, both the Clone and Civil Wars are less severe proportionally than our general wars) wars and the latter being mostly an "on-again, off-again" or "limited" wars, by comparison.

How does the Republic and its members work with insular or downright hostile neighbours like the Chiss or the Mersons?

I imagine one of the major mandates of the Republic Military Establishment is to secure the Union against extrinsic threats such as unincorporated or unassociated states, halo barbarians, and even the low-probability threat of intruders from beyond the halo.

I suppose I can work with that as well.

Good.

I always figured the prequel-era Supreme Court to be more a matter of arbitration between member polities, or perhaps a constitutional court, rather than one dealing with private citizens. Though I agree, the ideals of the Republic should likely be democratic. But it should not be able to directly enforce them, unless there are very serious violations of the fundamental rights it grants its citizens (it should not quite be a UN, but not a state with direct control over its members, either). I imagine there would be lengthy procedures before any decision would be taken, particularly if an offending state was protected by a Power.

Of course. I do think private citizens can bring suit. How else could they sue a Republic Authority employee or agency?

How common would non-aligned polities be, though, especially as they tend to diminish in importance the further out you go? Known isolationists or xenophobes like the Chiss are a given, but should there be major polities outside the Republican structure? Or do you imagine them as merely a number of insignificant end-of-nowheres in the farthest Rim?

It should be a minority of overall polities, and definitely very small minority of Powers. However, there are a few isolated Independent Powers like the Senex and Juvex Sectors. There are other large Rimworld states, like the Commonality and Tion Hegemony (both client states).

Of their high ideals, certainly. At the same time, they should be somewhat less "hippie" than in the canon - be prepared to clear ground to build cities, even if there was a meadow of beautiful flowers there, &c.

Of course. One realizes that unless the Core Worlds with still green and natural homeworlds are fantastically filthy rich compared to the city-worlds, they must have a much lower population density. They must have population centers sequestered underground or in space colonies in orbit around the planet or its sun, or in off-system integral territory of the State. Otherwise the Alderaanians' GDP/capita is going to be much much much higher than that of the Republic of Coruscant or the Federal Republic of Wukkar, and that's hardly fair or a reasonable recipe for political stability and balance.

Hm, that would be acceptable, I suppose. I presume you are talking about Britain traditionally, not as it is today when the House of Lords is basically a rubber stamp for the fully democratic administration. The Jedi should be allowed to wield some power on their own planet, at least.

19th century Britain, yes.

That was why I named him Grand Inquisitor in my draft; it fits with his hardliner canon portrayal and disapproval of Anakin, and goes some way towards explaining it. And LucasJedi can be fun, as stated. They would be rather close to the fringe of the Order, though; but then again, perhaps the Clone Wars trigger a Jedi religious revival if it coincides with some prophecy or another, making them more important (the strengthening of the mystic/fundie aspect of the Order might well be part of why it becomes less well liked). When there are large-scale disorders, people typically turn to religion and those who are religious already become more extreme.

Certainly. This is all good.

I did not mean that they should come back; I agree that should be a rather special thing, for the greatest Knights, perhaps with "returning" Jedi being the subject of religious/quasi-religious veneration. What I did mean to say was that the Force evidently does not "kill" their souls or disapparate them into buddhist annihilation of the self; they have an afterlife to live in beyond the mortal life. That, I think we should keep; it would be rather unfair if only Jedi had prospects for a life beyond death and others were obliterated from existence.

Well I assumed that all spirits were annhiliated upon death, even Obi-Wan Kenobi's; just the special Jedi could stay for awhile for a special purpose. I suppose we could do it either way. I don't want to define or ritualize the mysticism too much.

It is more than that to me; the Jedi evidently considers the Force to have a will of its own, which they serve. They view it as sentient and set above themselves, a deity (though impersonal) to be followed. The Sith only view it as a tool and refuse to recognise its will and associated doctrines.

That's an important distinction. The Jedi seem to believe in somesort of Fate or Destiny; a cosmic balance or essential equilibrium they serve to uphold. I imagine some Jedi may defy this (perhaps Luke's NJO will embrace free will as a stronger central tenet of their philosophy?). The Sith are contrariwise, purely utilitarian.

I didn't mean to imply that at all. I think Publius did a great job of avoiding preachiness and "THIS IS HOW I THINK" in his fiction. I have other sources of influence which while interesting in tone and form, are difficult to tolerate through their political proselytizing.

It was a joke; I am sorry if it was not funny.

What sources are you speaking of? Are they available online?

Other fanfics and such, including Duchess' De Imperatoribus Galacticis (being sought on this very page, so you can try and get a copy yourself).

I suppose it can be modified.

Thanks.

[Vehrec]

The Katana Fleet:Lost and Found

Introduction:
Starting in 59 BrS, the Republic Military, and most notably the Navy began spending what little political capital remained to it in a desperate attempt to slow or halt their decline into insignificance. While fought for mainly by Admirals speaking in the senate, the movement was largely pushed and funded by junior officers, concerned for their own futures as commanders. Many viewed the steady drain on ships to the boneyards and breakers as directly threatening their own chances at command and their life and career after leaving the military. Despite the mounting pressure from the military, many dismissed the doomsday scinarios until the penultimate decade BrS. In 17Brs, the Galactic Senate approved funding for what would become known as the Katana Fleet. Design requests were submitted to all first and second rate shipbuilders in the Republic, and Rendili and Kuat both lept to the forefront of the competition-each producing a very different vision of the fleet. While Kuat produced Five new designs, the most noteworthy one was a simple re-tooling of their existing Mandator class Dreadnaught with a Pan-Galactic Hyperdrive. Few on the Senate wanted the most powerful warship in the galaxy to suddenly have a indistinguishable tool of conquest in mass production. Kuat's attempt to save money to produce two more Dreadnaughts for the fleet's battleline backfired. Rendili's Katana class Dreadnaught had the extra advantage of being a masterpiece of 'soft combat'-blinding her enemies and dictating their motions on the battlefield. This was much more politically acceptable to many of the Great Powers-who both endorsed the use of soft warfare for ethical reasons, and because their own Mandators would be able to have a chance of beating a Katana in a stand up fight. Other designs in the fleet such as Enforcer class Star Frigates, Sode no Shirayuki class Battle Carriers, and Toro class Star Destroyers. The Enforcers would be billed as 'System Dreadnaughts' and be sold under that name to countless sector defense organizations....

(So yeah, I'm expanding the Katana fleet into something credible and much larger than a sector fleet. Names are tenative, and suggestions for all except Katana are up for grabs.)

[Typhonis 1]

Some thoughts on Darth Vader.


It was an open secret that he was Anakin Skywalker. Do you want to call someone who can killl you with a thought the wrong name?

He was from Alderaan.

He was 17 or 18, as old as Luke was, when he met Qui-gon and ObiWan. He piloted Amidalas ship .
Escaping from Naboo or whereever is what tipped the Jedi off that he was force sensitive.


Take it leave it mod it as you see fit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Some thoughts on Darth Vader.

It was an open secret that he was Anakin Skywalker. Do you want to call someone who can killl you with a thought the wrong name?

Why? Please format your posts correctly.

He was from Alderaan.

Why?

He was 17 or 18, as old as Luke was, when he met Qui-gon and ObiWan. He piloted Amidalas ship.

Why?

Escaping from Naboo or whereever is what tipped the Jedi off that he was force sensitive.

Why?

[Illuminatus Primus]

A Wonderful theForce.net ancient thread on old Clone Wars sources, speculation, and rationalization.

Check it out.

[Typhonis 1]

OK expanding on my earlier postiing.


Vader is Anakin Skywalker as an open secret. For onbe thing it wouldn't change much because for all we knowin certain areas of the GFFA Skywalker may very well be a common name.


Anakin could have also have been born on Alderaan instead of Tatooine. For one thing if you want to keep the story from being Tatooine crentric you may want him to be born elsewhere also it would explain WHY he never visied tatooine later on in the series. You also have the destruction of Alderaan as either a final loyalty test for Anakin or a way for Palpatine to punish him.


By making Anakin 17 or 18 years old,maybe just 15, It makes the too old part a bit more believeable from the jedi point of view. He would seem a bit too old too them and he would also be in the rebellious teenager years.


Anakin piloting Amidals ship, if you use the Trade Fed blockade from Ep1,is a way for him to meet Obi wan. Remeber ObiWan said that Anakin was already a great pilot when they met , and by watchin him run the Nemodian blockade and getting them to safety this would more than likely make Obi Wan think so. Also if theynoticed he seemd to have an uncanny ability in piloting thorugh it they may question if he does have force potential.

[Darth Hoth]

I agree, but I'd like to tone down the more exaggerated and simple-minded concept of obviously-intended purely-genetic inheritance from the EU. Especially I would like to tonedown whole Jedi-descendant subspecies. Anyway, the fact that the Order is concerned with Force sensitivity as a fundamental measuring stick for qualification of full membership necessarily will prevent formal or direct noble-title style inheritance if Force sensitivity is not strictly inherited.

You do not like the Miraluka?

Well, I never envisioned Order offices or titles as such to be inherited; rather, for "Jedi families", service in the Order would be a long-held tradition, with the family achieving great prestige for its history but no formal privileges. Of course, such traditions would easily correlate with nobility elsewhere (as per, say, Lord Farfalla).

Well would you like to start a second draft, or should I?

I can start with one, if you like; it should be up in a few days or so.

Good. It does a pretty good job of instilling realism and verisimilitude and reconciling depictions while making for a sufficiently alien and not too derivative political system. The only thing its short on is simplicity and transparency. A thought I had was merely organizing and mobilizing for genuinely pan-galactic policies or reforms or war in our understanding of it will be traumatic and dramatic upheaval for them. Imagine how many traditional constitutional and political compromise toes will get stepped on issuing basic war executive orders. One realizes that relative to our society, the Clone Wars could very well have been relatively bloodless and undramatically altered the big numbers of population, HDI, economics, etc. But changing things from the ossified and utterly hardened customary way-things-are will be dramatic and frightening to them. Of course something can be absolutely devastating while being relatively meaningless, like the torching of any given world. I think one of the really interesting angles is the big-picture realization of how history, tradition, culture, and change all intersect and how individuals shaped by their society and part of events are affected and respond to all of it.

Certainly. The galaxy has no experience, let alone recent experience, of anything like the great wars of our fairly recent history (I imagine that for them, a local war would be considered devastating if they had to raise taxes to pay for it). The structure of the Republic, and arguably society in general, would be unprepared and inadequate in the extreme for a major armed conflict. A large part of this would also be psychology and public opinion (I imagine at first, most would simply be in denial after the conflict began). The dramatic changes that all-out war would necessitate on a mostly peaceful society are very interesting to explore.

Though of course, I would not mind a little truly gruesome warring (by our standards) as well. . .

That's one idea. A good one, I think, in certain circumstances and amongst certain players. I mean HRH Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan received special training and conditioning so that she could not be tortured for sensitive information.

Well, there is that bit, as well as various other implications (Ancient Houses scheming elsewhere, a lot of the early EU before they decided to make the Empire fascist, &c.).

I think the Republic's main job is to keep the trains running on time and keep everything from getting out of hand. There's obviously a strong incentive toward unity and relative peace. The Republic exists to guard the common welfare. Of course, on a grand scheme this means that what we consider devestating warfare could be common place to them. At any given time there may be thousands of world under armed occupation, suppressing insurgencies, etc. I imagine that conflict is generally suppressed to very localized and brief open conflicts (think Georgia-Russia), followed by Republic and third party peacekeeping and resolution. Other than that, secret War of Assassins is a possibility, as is general terrorism; proxy war through privateers, terrorists, insurgents, and rebels; and of course plain old rebellions, revolutions, civil conflicts. You'd see a lot of disputes and peacekeeping by the Republic. Other than that I can see a handful of region-scale wars during the First Republic period which is as bad as it gets. Regional wars being something like the Sith Wars, the Light and Darkness War maybe (perhaps just a Jedi-darksider tiff?) or the Mandalorian Wars, as opposed to the galactic wars of the Clone Wars and Civil Wars - the former being considered "full-scale" or "general" or "total" (relative to their history, but not qualifying according to a proportional comparison to our own, both the Clone and Civil Wars are less severe proportionally than our general wars) wars and the latter being mostly an "on-again, off-again" or "limited" wars, by comparison.

Good stuff.

I imagine one of the major mandates of the Republic Military Establishment is to secure the Union against extrinsic threats such as unincorporated or unassociated states, halo barbarians, and even the low-probability threat of intruders from beyond the halo.

Also agreed. But on the other hand, institutional inertia might well make it difficult to act against them under certain circumstances.

Of course. I do think private citizens can bring suit. How else could they sue a Republic Authority employee or agency?

I suppose so. But then we would need to posit a full structure of Federal courts down to Sectorial or planetary levels, or else they would be swamped with octillions of cases. Is the Authority's contact with the individual citizens so direct? Or would it be more similar to the EU, where one would have to go through the national courts first if one had complaints?

It should be a minority of overall polities, and definitely very small minority of Powers. However, there are a few isolated Independent Powers like the Senex and Juvex Sectors. There are other large Rimworld states, like the Commonality and Tion Hegemony (both client states).

So basically, per the canon?

Of course. One realizes that unless the Core Worlds with still green and natural homeworlds are fantastically filthy rich compared to the city-worlds, they must have a much lower population density. They must have population centers sequestered underground or in space colonies in orbit around the planet or its sun, or in off-system integral territory of the State. Otherwise the Alderaanians' GDP/capita is going to be much much much higher than that of the Republic of Coruscant or the Federal Republic of Wukkar, and that's hardly fair or a reasonable recipe for political stability and balance.

Right.

19th century Britain, yes.

Right; I believe I can work with that.

Well I assumed that all spirits were annhiliated upon death, even Obi-Wan Kenobi's; just the special Jedi could stay for awhile for a special purpose. I suppose we could do it either way. I don't want to define or ritualize the mysticism too much.

The EU overall tends to support the objective existence of an afterlife for all, including those not sensitive to the Force; therefore I prefer to keep it. While I personally like rituals and mysticism (makes it seem more like a knightly order), I am prepared to tone that down, for the overall Order at least.

That's an important distinction. The Jedi seem to believe in somesort of Fate or Destiny; a cosmic balance or essential equilibrium they serve to uphold. I imagine some Jedi may defy this (perhaps Luke's NJO will embrace free will as a stronger central tenet of their philosophy?). The Sith are contrariwise, purely utilitarian.

Right, this is akin to where I was going.

Other fanfics and such, including Duchess' De Imperatoribus Galacticis (being sought on this very page, so you can try and get a copy yourself).

I shall check it out, then.

[Darth Raptor]

Part one of the second draft, ostensibly written by a layman of the Order prior to the Clone Wars.

*****

The Jedi Order

Overview

The Jedi Order is an ancient and pan-galactic society dedicated to the philosophical study and practical application of the Force. Individuals capable of sensing and influencing the Force are possessed of extraordinary abilities including, but in no way limited to, precognition, psychokinesis and telepathy. These abilities can facilitate everything a Force-sensitive individual does, but their most effective application is in combat. The latent powers of the untrained manifest themselves as exceptional, if entirely mundane, aptitude, or the illusion of uncanny luck. To achieve one's full potential and wield their natural powers effectively, extensive training is required. In general terms, one who is trained, either through the guidance of another or through independent experimentation, to wield the Force is called a Force magus. Force magi trained by and in service to the Jedi Order are called Jedi Knights.

Do to their seemingly-miraculous and poorly-understood nature, the paranormal phenomena collectively attributed to the Force are steeped in mysticism. Nevertheless, they are repeatable, verifiable and undeniably real. The powers of the Force, while widely regarded as magical, are not technological effects or prestidigitations, nor are the Jedi arts a body of 'simple tricks and nonsense'. The under-educated and overly-cynical may be excused of this belief, due to the extreme scarcity of trained magi and the reluctance with which Jedi use their abilities (Jedi Knights avoid calling on the Force for frivolous things and, outside of exercises, only wield their powers when necessary). Biokinetics, the scientific study of the Force and an unlikely hybrid of microbiology and astrophysics, is clear: The Force, while extremely difficult (if not impossible) to completely explain, is undeniably real.

Why, then, should Jedi philosophy, or indeed that of any of the so-called Force cults be regarded as a religion? It is perhaps an indictment of modern academia that a religion must necessarily be false. While not strictly scientific, almost all of the Order's vast knowledge of the Force is based on hundreds of thousands of years of haphazard empiricism. The prehistoric forebears of the Jedi can hardly be faulted for predating modern biokinetics, nor for their mystical reverence for what undeniably is the quintessential power of the universe. Instead, those who would classify the Order as a religion point to the its strict code of morality and conduct. Yet here again, the argument has its flaws. Ethical codes exist in the applied sciences, due in no small part to the extreme dangers of abused knowledge. Bereft of conscience, an engineer can shatter worlds and a physician can exterminate whole species. Why, then, should a power with potential hazards eclipsing that of hyperphysics or biochemistry be held to a lesser standard? If indeed the Jedi Code is a religion, it is the One True Faith and not undeservedly regarded by the galaxy at large as the correct interpretation of the Force.

Historically, the Jedi Knights are classical heroes; legendary in ability and in deed. The incredible might, serene discipline and undeniable virtue of the Order have made them almost universally respected, if not revered. For as long as history has been recorded, the Jedi Knights have been the guardians of peace and justice throughout the galaxy, feared by those who would seek to destroy those ideals. The Order was instrumental in the Unification Wars that saw the birth of the Galactic Republic and to this day the Order serves an indispensable role in the defense and preservation of the Union. While the most atrocious criminals in history have also been fallen Jedi (or members of schismatic sects), they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Since the First Great Schism, the Order has been all but defined by its absolute opposition to those hateful and destructive souls corrupted by the dark side of the Force. The Republic owes its existence to the Order, and its citizens owe them their undying gratitude.