EU Fic: RotJ-NJO Era

[Illuminatus Primus]

SUPREME COMMANDER

Supreme Commander Lord High Admiral/Lord High Constable/Lord High Marshal/Lord High Logothete (part of me would like there to be a common rank regardless of the original service of the SCAFI, maybe "Generalissimus of the Armed Forces"? Also an appropriate title if a civilian, with the courtesy style of "Lord.")

Just an idea, but if we are following the German model, why not a (Lord?) Marshall of the Empire? (Or perhaps a (Lord?) Admiral of the Empire, if the Navy is the senior service.) "Generalissimus" sounds a bit informal to me in modern usage, and not quite correct given the models we are working with.

I'm more concerned with horizontal coherency (grades should line up with correct grades, certain ranks have direct equivalents, e.g., admiral general and colonel general or fleet admiral and field/surface marshal or high admiral and high general) than vertical coherency (not to mention easier to respect than vertical when you're looking to invent extra ranks!). Not to mention I don't want to arbitrarily countermand The New Order in Power since basically it was unanimous to retain it (you, Raptor, me, etc., etc., etc.), and I'm sure as shit not going to rewrite major sections of it to accommodate it to whimsical changes. I guess you're looking for an analogue to Reichsmarshall? I've thought about it too. Maybe an honorific or something?

I am somewhat uncomfortable with the inclusion of both "Rear Admiral" and "Counter-Admiral". I assume you are familiar with the etymology of those terms; essentially, they denote the same rank. Why include both, and of different seniority?

Otherwise, no complaints.

I'm trying to stretch the flag officers so there are more available for the large heirarchy of echelons. Basically, counter admiral is rear admiral (lower half), while rear admiral (upper half) is merely rear admiral. Commodore is separate because its not formally a flag officer (like rear admiral (rear admiral upper half) and counter admiral (rear admiral lower half)).

A bit of the same complaint, but here the problem is even more evident: Why are there two Brigadier ranks? They mean the same thing; both should probably not be in use in the same military. And why is one senior to the other? If the position is needed, we could come up with another specific rank; even "Brigadier/High Brigadier" sounds better.

Well I hate the high ranks, and the relationship here is supposed to be like that between director and director general.

See above. Otherwise, I have no real problems with using the USMC model you did. Draka ranks would, I think, be a mistake.

I'm thinking more and more to use the French model for some of the general ranks (like "general of force [marine expeditionary force]").

This one does bother me a little. First, I am not all that happy with canon having Intelligence be an armed service of its own - it sounds somewhat counterintuitive and makes for unnecessary complications.

Why? All military services have intelligence branches. The U.S. has a unified defense intelligence apparatus (the Defense Intelligence Agency), many intelligence services are operated by and staffed with numerous military officers and personnel (the National Security Agency) and many countries have a militarized or military-subordinate intelligence. A DIA, CIA, and NSA analog is inappropriate because Palpatine's Empire will have no respect for separating domestic and various separate intelligence apparatuses. And unlike our system, no pretense of civilian management is maintained. In the Empire, instead of strategic forces or air defense or amphibious troops being shuttled into a new branch of service (as per the Soviet example twice and the U.S. example once), their CIA/DIA/NSA was combined into something like the Russian/Soviet GRU and elevated to an autonomous branch of service. Ysanne Isard's character practically wears the AFI uniform as her skin. It makes perfect sense if not what we're accustomed to in the West. Not to mention I think its very fitting that Palpatine's GRU would be elevated to its own service. He would give Armand Isard and his spooks that kind of power and precedence (note carefully, Isard is the only head of service to serve continuously; even Screed's navy leadership is not as consistent). And of course, consistency with The New Order in Power.

Is it necessary that we keep that? Most of the existing EU does not appear to acknowledge that

Yet they acknowledge that Ysanne Isard wears a military uniform, and in the ISB they state it outright.

("Special Agent" and "Director" hardly being military ranks),

Hence making new ones up. But they do the same thing with ISB, often having them obfuscate their rank and role by styling themselves just "agents", and we know ISB is definitely militarily structured and ranked. You expect me to believe that Imperial Intelligence is MORE straight-forward and less opaque than ISB?

and it came from a sourcebook to start with. If we do stick with it, I would prefer simply having Army-ish ranks.

Is a sourcebook somehow intrinsically less valuable than dreck like the Jedi Academy Trilogy? I don't really see how. At least WEG made an effort to appear to be trying.

A question on the rank of Technarch: whence does this come? Is this Publius extrapolating from the "Grade-X Tech" stuff in Mara Jade?

I'm not sure, you'd have to ask him. Oh, an Spectator is not pure invention, Roman spies were called spectatores.

Agreement. And the Political Reliability Observers should have Commissar ranks. . .

I'd be fine with that too.

All right. In addition, I think the Rebels should also have a special air/space arm, even if the Empire does not.

I don't know about that. You think that Luke was a RAF style wing commander, as opposed to a naval commander? And that they use USAF-style ranks for their air officers? I was thinking about just saying that the NR ranks are rendered in Old Galactic Standard which like Chinese is ambiguous. In other words, flag and senior ranks may be in either army or navy format based on preference and cultural backgruond.

[Darth Hoth]

I'm more concerned with horizontal coherency (grades should line up with correct grades, certain ranks have direct equivalents, e.g., admiral general and colonel general or fleet admiral and field/surface marshal or high admiral and high general) than vertical coherency (not to mention easier to respect than vertical when you're looking to invent extra ranks!). Not to mention I don't want to arbitrarily countermand The New Order in Power since basically it was unanimous to retain it (you, Raptor, me, etc., etc., etc.), and I'm sure as shit not going to rewrite major sections of it to accommodate it to whimsical changes. I guess you're looking for an analogue to Reichsmarshall? I've thought about it too. Maybe an honorific or something?

Unless I misread you, you were thinking of a common rank for the SCAFI; I suggested a Reichsmarschall analogue for that rank. It was not that I arbitrarily wished to add or remove anything.

I'm trying to stretch the flag officers so there are more available for the large heirarchy of echelons. Basically, counter admiral is rear admiral (lower half), while rear admiral (upper half) is merely rear admiral. Commodore is separate because its not formally a flag officer (like rear admiral (rear admiral upper half) and counter admiral (rear admiral lower half)).

Yes, I see your point, but this is the kind of incoherency/counterintuitiveness that I would like to avoid in EUFic. Ranks should make sense as they stand, which having what is essentially different translations of one rank at different seniorities does not. How about just using the American system for that one? Or, we could invent some other junior flag rank to replace RDML; perhaps something based on Flotillenadmiral?

Well I hate the high ranks, and the relationship here is supposed to be like that between director and director general.

Well, I do not think it works.

I'm thinking more and more to use the French model for some of the general ranks (like "general of force [marine expeditionary force]").

Could work, I suppose; at least it makes them stand apart. (I assume the Army has the usual German suffixes for their general officers).

Why? All military services have intelligence branches. The U.S. has a unified defense intelligence apparatus (the Defense Intelligence Agency), many intelligence services are operated by and staffed with numerous military officers and personnel (the National Security Agency) and many countries have a militarized or military-subordinate intelligence. A DIA, CIA, and NSA analog is inappropriate because Palpatine's Empire will have no respect for separating domestic and various separate intelligence apparatuses. And unlike our system, no pretense of civilian management is maintained. In the Empire, instead of strategic forces or air defense or amphibious troops being shuttled into a new branch of service (as per the Soviet example twice and the U.S. example once), their CIA/DIA/NSA was combined into something like the Russian/Soviet GRU and elevated to an autonomous branch of service. Ysanne Isard's character practically wears the AFI uniform as her skin. It makes perfect sense if not what we're accustomed to in the West. Not to mention I think its very fitting that Palpatine's GRU would be elevated to its own service. He would give Armand Isard and his spooks that kind of power and precedence (note carefully, Isard is the only head of service to serve continuously; even Screed's navy leadership is not as consistent). And of course, consistency with The New Order in Power.

I am mostly unfamiliar with how the GRU worked (in fact, I am fairly unfamiliar with intelligence work in general), but is intelligence the kind of service that lends itself well to a strictly military structure? Moreover, why does Palpatine maintain such a leviathan that it assumes parity with the armed services? The Empire essentially has no strategic threats to guard against, or at least not military such; I would expect a dedicated military intelligence agency of such magnitude to be redundant.

Yet they acknowledge that Ysanne Isard wears a military uniform,

Not necessarily; Is it not established that Imperial civil servants wear uniforms as well, as was the case with, say, Nazi Germany?

and in the ISB they state it outright.

Yes, but, unless I am mistaken, only there.

Hence making new ones up. But they do the same thing with ISB, often having them obfuscate their rank and role by styling themselves just "agents", and we know ISB is definitely militarily structured and ranked. You expect me to believe that Imperial Intelligence is MORE straight-forward and less opaque than ISB?

Are those not the undercover agents who might not find it wise to reveal name and rank? There is a difference between "agent" and "Special Agent"; the former is a general term, the latter a specific rank. And given Agent Loor's liaison with the Corellian Security Force, the Imperial Intelligence Agency is arguably portrayed more as a federal police service and less as a military intelligence service.

Is a sourcebook somehow intrinsically less valuable than dreck like the Jedi Academy Trilogy? I don't really see how. At least WEG made an effort to appear to be trying.

Not necessarily, but I thought the general policy was to go by newer and/or more numerous appearances in case of discrepancies.

I'm not sure, you'd have to ask him. Oh, an Spectator is not pure invention, Roman spies were called spectatores.

Interesting; I honestly had no idea.

I'd be fine with that too.

Good.

I don't know about that. You think that Luke was a RAF style wing commander, as opposed to a naval commander? And that they use USAF-style ranks for their air officers? I was thinking about just saying that the NR ranks are rendered in Old Galactic Standard which like Chinese is ambiguous. In other words, flag and senior ranks may be in either army or navy format based on preference and cultural backgruond.

That sounds unnecessarily complicated; I would rather go with the available evidence, of which all but ANH and perhaps TESB appear to use use USAF ranks (RotJ has a general in charge of the fighters). I could chalk the discrepancies down to the Rebellion simply being newly established in ANH and not having formalised its ranks. Alternately "squadron commander/leader" could perhaps be a hat, not a rank.

[Pelranius]

Imperial Intelligence and then the individual intel departments of the sersvices could have been used instead to further intra Empire squabbles and turf disputes, even if they were theoretically to hunt for external and internal enemies. I think that Armand Isard had enough pull with Palpatine in the early days of the Empire to prevent his personal fiefdom from being swallowed up by the ISB or Blackhole's personal operation.

[montypython]

Here's a revised provisional ranks list for SAGroup, COMPForce and Assault at the time of the battle of Yavin (feel free to make additions or changes where necessary):

SAGroup

Adult Leadership ranks:

Commander of SAGroup

O-8 Staff Leader
O-7 Senior Area Leader
O-6 Area Leader
O-5 Head Banner Leader
O-4 Senior Banner Leader
O-3 Banner Leader
O-2 Senior Unit Leader
O-1 Unit Leader

Youth ranks:

Head Cadre Unit Leader of SAGroup

E-9 Senior Cadre Leader
E-8 Cadre Leader
E-7 Senior Band Leader
E-6 Band Leader
E-5 Senior Section Leader
E-4 Section Leader
E-3 SAG Comrade Leader
E-2 SAG Youth Leader
E-1 SAG Youth


COMPForce

Imperial Supreme Leader of CompForce

O-13 Supreme Staff Leader
O-12 Staff Leader
O-11 Supreme Group Leader
O-10 Senior Group Leader
O-9 Group Leader
O-8 Brigade Leader
O-7 Senior Standard Leader
O-6 Standard Leader
O-5 Senior Assault Unit Leader
O-4 Assault Unit Leader
O-3 Head Assault Leader
O-2 Senior Assault Leader
O-1 Junior Assault Leader
Officer Candidate

Chief Assault Troop Leader of COMPForce

E-9 Chief Troop Leader
E-8 Senior Troop Leader
E-7 Troop Leader
E-6 Senior Section Leader
E-5 Section Leader
E-4 Senior Assault Trooper
E-3 Assault Trooper
E-2 Senior Trooper
E-1 Trooper

CompForce Assault Ranks are the same as the base organization with some small differences:
ranks of Brigade Leader up to Supreme Staff Leader ranks have corresponding equivalent Imperial Army rank titles added to them, for example Brigade Leader and Brigadier, Assault.

As there isn't a corresponding equivalent Warrant Officer structure that I know of from Earth based paramilitaries, I've left that blank for anyone else who wishes to contribute to that.

Again, feel free to make any additions/revisions wherever necessary.

[Admiral Felire]

I was trying to think about the sorts of military and political effects and forces and planets that the 13 most powerful Imperial warlords would have. And I figure that each would probably have to have dozens if not scores of sectors and the equivalent military forces under their control.

That when Pellaeon kills them and takes their territory he would have to have more than 1,000 systems. And while he would be far far less than what the Republic would be able to muster, it would have to be a huge amount of resources.

This particular point in the timeline intrigues me and I was thinking about trying to figure out aspects of it.

I think the main part of it that we need to figure out is the amount of resources each of the warlords have individually and what they would have combined.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Pretty fucking sad if you take Darksaber at face value. There's nothing really mandating that the warlords have much in the way of remaining resources at all.

[Darth Hoth]

Darksaber also said their hundred-ISD shit was roughly equivalent to everything the NR could pull forth to fight it. It is ridiculous to take that at face value.

[Pelranius]

And what do we do about Ars Dangor? Do we have him die in the Imperial Mutiny, the destruction of Byss or keep him around for fun and games?

For the Deep Core warlords, I was surprised that they didn't have any input from the Inquisitorius, which was still a going concern on Byss when they were active (never mind what the New Rebellion said).

[Admiral Felire]

I am taking the concept that the warlords were the largest and most powerful indidvually of the surviving ones. Why shouldn't I take that at face value, there is nothing off about that statement.

I am not taking the numbers that each of them had to call upon at face value. That I figure we should increase upward.

Certain things can be kept - one of which is the basic nature of the warlords and how Pellaeon got them to unite, their death - and then their are things that cannot - the numbers they have under their forces.

I personally beleive that just because YOU don't find something entertaining, doesn't mean that others don't and that we neet to dissmiss it entirely. If it can be fit and made to work then we should keep it. And the basic plot of the Pellaeon unification works.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And what do we do about Ars Dangor? Do we have him die in the Imperial Mutiny, the destruction of Byss or keep him around for fun and games?

For the Deep Core warlords, I was surprised that they didn't have any input from the Inquisitorius, which was still a going concern on Byss when they were active (never mind what the New Rebellion said).

Ars Dangor should probably die on Byss, or be assassinated by the IIRC (Imperial Interim Ruling Council) conspirators. I'm all about rehabilitating Pelleaon, but he (and especially Daala), don't stand a chance before him. Here's a thought. Daala leads the coup/usurpation that leads to a reunification, and Pelleaon basically serves as her chief of staff and prime minister reassimilating all the warlord-doms into a coherent whole both civilly and militarily. He, being the ultimate loyalist, goes along with her leadership, partially because she had the initiative, the audacity, and the bloodymindedness he does not, and because he wants to believe in her and in her claims to be rebuilding the Empire. But it is he who actually coups her when she starts wrecking his efforts and obviously looking to merely resume her self-destructive terrorist campaign with what's left of the Empire. He has her arrested and relieved of command, backed by what's left of Kaine's Pentastar Alignment and the other Rim Imperialist powers.

[Admiral Felire]

If we go by the thought that there are around a million full member systems, then if something like 10,000 are members of the Pellaeon Empire that still doesn't given them that much imput. Hell, if the Empire had 100,000 systems that still isn't that much when you consider the overhwelming number that the Republic has.

Of course, this does not take into account the axuiliary and colony systems, such as mining systems and other non-inhabited systems.

By the way, this is all about the Pellaeon Empire that Pellaeon forms.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If we go by the thought that there are around a million full member systems, then if something like 10,000 are members of the Pellaeon Empire that still doesn't given them that much imput. Hell, if the Empire had 100,000 systems that still isn't that much when you consider the overhwelming number that the Republic has.

Of course, this does not take into account the axuiliary and colony systems, such as mining systems and other non-inhabited systems.

By the way, this is all about the Pellaeon Empire that Pellaeon forms.

He doesn't have to have all the votes. He'll already be Emperor in his own territories, and then he'll be made emperor of the Republic by popular support across the whole galaxy, as a principate.

[Admiral Felire]

Illuminatus Primus

The points I am making in this thread are not about the Second Empire, they are about the formation and establishment and size of Pellaeon's Empire during the reign of Pellaeon and the signign of the peace treaty with the Republic.

I was trying to come up with a suitable number that does nto speak of minimalism.

[Pelranius]

And what do we do about Ars Dangor? Do we have him die in the Imperial Mutiny, the destruction of Byss or keep him around for fun and games?

For the Deep Core warlords, I was surprised that they didn't have any input from the Inquisitorius, which was still a going concern on Byss when they were active (never mind what the New Rebellion said).

Ars Dangor should probably die on Byss, or be assassinated by the IIRC (Imperial Interim Ruling Council) conspirators. I'm all about rehabilitating Pelleaon, but he (and especially Daala), don't stand a chance before him. Here's a thought. Daala leads the coup/usurpation that leads to a reunification, and Pelleaon basically serves as her chief of staff and prime minister reassimilating all the warlord-doms into a coherent whole both civilly and militarily. He, being the ultimate loyalist, goes along with her leadership, partially because she had the initiative, the audacity, and the bloodymindedness he does not, and because he wants to believe in her and in her claims to be rebuilding the Empire. But it is he who actually coups her when she starts wrecking his efforts and obviously looking to merely resume her self-destructive terrorist campaign with what's left of the Empire. He has her arrested and relieved of command, backed by what's left of Kaine's Pentastar Alignment and the other Rim Imperialist powers.

That's a pretty great idea. It would also remove any chance of Daala showing up again, which is ideal.

I respectfully disagree about Dangor being too dangerous for Pellaeon. Dangor could just sit outside squabbling with the Moffs on the Rim while Daala and Pellaeon consolidate the Deep Core warlords. He probably doesn't have very much power left after the destruction of Byss, and his support seemed to be primarily drawn from the grassroots organizations, bureaucrats, Palpatine's favor and Council, none of which exist anymore. I imagine that Dangor is going to be fairly reduced in influence after the Imperial Mutiny, which would wreck a lot of his credibility among the Moffs and military. Dangor could serve as an opportunist who tries to use Pellaeon and his fleet to cement his position but later on the Remnant's power structure becomes a three way rivalry between the Moffs, Pellaeon and Dangor. It would explain why the last Remnant offensive failed and also make the Hand of Thrawn business more interesting.

[Darth Raptor]

I like the idea that (the real) Pestage, Dangor et al bought it at Byss. It draws a nice parallel with Bail Organa and Alderaan. Not everyone needs their own boss level. Some villains should get killed by a bolt from the blue while sitting on the toilet.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus Primus

The points I am making in this thread are not about the Second Empire, they are about the formation and establishment and size of Pellaeon's Empire during the reign of Pellaeon and the signign of the peace treaty with the Republic.

I was trying to come up with a suitable number that does nto speak of minimalism.

I was giving to leave the Hand of Thrawn duology mostly alone. Pelleaon's state, be it a member or merely an associate or observer to the New Republic, will be relatively insignificant in the galactic balance of power.

That's a pretty great idea. It would also remove any chance of Daala showing up again, which is ideal.

I respectfully disagree about Dangor being too dangerous for Pellaeon. Dangor could just sit outside squabbling with the Moffs on the Rim while Daala and Pellaeon consolidate the Deep Core warlords. He probably doesn't have very much power left after the destruction of Byss, and his support seemed to be primarily drawn from the grassroots organizations, bureaucrats, Palpatine's favor and Council, none of which exist anymore. I imagine that Dangor is going to be fairly reduced in influence after the Imperial Mutiny, which would wreck a lot of his credibility among the Moffs and military. Dangor could serve as an opportunist who tries to use Pellaeon and his fleet to cement his position but later on the Remnant's power structure becomes a three way rivalry between the Moffs, Pellaeon and Dangor. It would explain why the last Remnant offensive failed and also make the Hand of Thrawn business more interesting.

Dangor was said to have been capable of Palpatinizing the galaxy himself, but he chooses to serve Palpatine because he respects and admires him. This guy is fucking dangerous. He was the leader of the ruling class from Isard's desertion until Palpatine's reassumption of power on Byss. And the Imperial Mutiny is going to end up being a set-up by Palpatine and Dangor and the other "insiders" to eliminate the square pegs for the circle holes in their unification and war plans. Unsuitable elements for the harmonization of the reunified state and its war effort would need to be pruned selectively, and it also does the favor of giving the New Republic a false sense of security and luring Skywalker where he can be abducted by Palpatine.

[Admiral Felire]

I have no problem with the thought of removing Daala from showing up again. Unlike Pellaeon she does not serve much long term significance to the setting. So she could go the moment she can.

I would like to note that while it was Daala and Pellaeon that united the disparate warlords into a new Empire, it was Pellaeon that stablized it and made it whole. He was the one that organized it, provided efficiency and bureacracy as well as government.

I also don't think that we need to change history so much that there is a three-way rivalry between Moffs, Pellaeon and Dangor. In fact there isn't even a two-way rivalry for most of the Remnants history - Pellaeon is in charge.

And yeah, I am all for keeping the Hand of Thawn dualogy intact. But what are we going to do with the Empire of the Hand, where are we going to place it. Some support exists in the novels taht it was brought into the Imperial Remnant between the duology and the New Jedi Order.

And while the Empire doesn't provide much threat to the Republic militarily or economically, it does politically. Despite its size having the Imperial state officially within the union of the Republic is a huge PR move and would have huge political connotations that should not be forgotten or downplayed.

Remember, despite a force's size, it can have much more political weight than it technically should based on how others perceive of it, its friends and how others refer to it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think the Pelleaonist empire is on its last legs. Its basically surrendering. And I don't think it should be a voting member (which is basically openly subordinating itself to the rebel ruling class on Coruscant). Forget the Empire. They should be peripheral and appear barely at all in the NJO. Their time has come and gone.

[Admiral Felire]

I disagree with you. They exist, they have their military their economy, and they have their politics. They are afterall the Empire and that means much politically. They should have a say in a government that they are in, and if they Join the Republic then they have a say in it.

I don't think they should be ignored or forgotten or drummed out of the story. They matter and have an interesting story to tell, which should be told.

Plus with Pellaeon leading them they have intelligence and capability which could be useful in a galactic war.

[Illuminatus Primus]

They're not really the Empire, just a fascimile. That's a fact. Another fact is they have only eight sectors in the Outer Rim, and Pelleaon throws in the towel because its hopeless. The EU authors brought the Empire through the power of author's fiat in order to contrive some fanservice for Empire fanboys. And Pelleaon is not a great officer, canonically, when he surrenders to the New Republic. He's lost every major battle he's been in charge for. Give them a rest sometime, and let other parts of the galaxy be explored. Why must everything revolve around the Empire, even after they are an eight-sector surrendered facsimile of their former greatness? Its like if the U.S. was widdled down to Pinellas County in Tampa Bay, everyone should get in a big huff over them because they used to be the United States of America.

[Admiral Felire]

Whether it is legally Palpatine's Empire or not doesn't matter because it shares the same braod culture, organization and systems as that governments. Its an Empire and its the only one in the galaxy that matters - hence calling it the Empire is fine. Its semantics do try and point out in universe points when I am making statements to other members of this project.

I don't care whether its fanservice for Empire fanboys, its canon and it is what occurs. Whether you like it or not is immaterial. There is no reason to remove it when it works, and it does work. It fits with what we have and it works with what we have.

And whether its technically the Galactic Empire of Palapatine is also meaningless in the fact aht the masses of the galaxy, the political officers of the galaxy, the services of the galaxy consider Pellaeons Empire to be the Galactic Empire. Smaller, not galaxy spanning, sure, but still the Empire in all the ways that count - diplomatically, poltiically and all that.

And I ahve said this before, and I hope you will realize the truth of it rather than ignore it, politics sometimes does not matter the actual size or the weapons one truly has. It also relates to how one carries oneself, the pull one has with others in the political arena and the force of personality and ability. A planet could have in the Galactic Senate more pwoer than the planet should because of the capability of its representive and his ability to have others surround him.

So yes, if that small little tiny US still had the friendships with others, could still call upon support and alliances, then yes, their poltiical power would be larger than their size.

[Darth Hoth]

I disagree with you. They exist, they have their military their economy, and they have their politics. They are afterall the Empire and that means much politically. They should have a say in a government that they are in, and if they Join the Republic then they have a say in it.

I don't think they should be ignored or forgotten or drummed out of the story. They matter and have an interesting story to tell, which should be told.

Plus with Pellaeon leading them they have intelligence and capability which could be useful in a galactic war.

Sorry, but this is wrong on right about every count. Perhaps they exist, if you agree that they are the Empire's legal successor. But their economy is in shambles, their military is a joke, and their politics have transformed from constitutional Empire to despotate to theocracy and then finally on to Moffic oligarchy via warlordism. The only things that remain the same are basically the uniforms. And then there is the mostly justified Pellaeon-bashing.

On an altogether different count, I agree with Dangor probably dying on Byss (else, he should be with the Interim Council). Pellaeon couping Daala is also an interesting take, and it makes him less of a kicked dog and more of a well-meaning (if inadequate) patriot. I like his more Kaiser Wilhelm-like portrayal from the Zahn EU: He really means well, he just screws up.

[Vehrec]

Whether it is legally Palpatine's Empire or not doesn't matter because it shares the same braod culture, organization and systems as that governments. Its an Empire and its the only one in the galaxy that matters - hence calling it the Empire is fine. Its semantics do try and point out in universe points when I am making statements to other members of this project.

It is not semantics, and it is not out of universe to debate the legal status and derivation of the Imperial Reminant.

I don't care whether its fanservice for Empire fanboys, its canon and it is what occurs. Whether you like it or not is immaterial. There is no reason to remove it when it works, and it does work. It fits with what we have and it works with what we have.

It exists, but it isn't important in the grand scheme of things is what we are trying to say.

And whether its technically the Galactic Empire of Palapatine is also meaningless in the fact aht the masses of the galaxy, the political officers of the galaxy, the services of the galaxy consider Pellaeons Empire to be the Galactic Empire. Smaller, not galaxy spanning, sure, but still the Empire in all the ways that count - diplomatically, poltiically and all that.

Except it's based off a bunch of warlord states, and has been on the loosing end of a war to determine who is the true successor to the Galacitic Republic. Clearly, the Empire is not what it once was, and no longer commands anything like the respect it once might have had.

And I ahve said this before, and I hope you will realize the truth of it rather than ignore it, politics sometimes does not matter the actual size or the weapons one truly has. It also relates to how one carries oneself, the pull one has with others in the political arena and the force of personality and ability. A planet could have in the Galactic Senate more pwoer than the planet should because of the capability of its representive and his ability to have others surround him.

The Empire ruined a lot of it's reputation with those decades of chaos, Dark Side Cults, and Warlords. The Austro-Hungarian Empire it Ain't. This is no great power resting on the laurels of past deeds, this is a faded ember from a holocaust that swept the galaxy.

So yes, if that small little tiny US still had the friendships with others, could still call upon support and alliances, then yes, their poltiical power would be larger than their size.

Except that the Imperial State never had 'support and alliances' except in discticts that are now under the direct control of their competition to legitimacy. And I highly doubt anyone with the least bit of political sense would spend their precious favors to help an eight sector rump-state.

[Darth Raptor]

I agree. This is the coming of age story for the New Republic in general and the New Jedi Order in particular. Let's let the Empire stay dead and eliminate a lot of the reasons people favor it in the first place by making the Republic not suck.

[Pelranius]

What do we do about the Deep Core Imperials? Do we actually have all of them pack up shop and move out to the Rim with Pellaeon, or shall we keep them as under Pellaeon's authority or just let them fight among themselves such as with the official timeline?