Salvation War Criticism Thread

[Thanas]

Long live the lightbringer.

Anyone else considering the strong Paralels between Satan and Prometheus?

[General Zod]

Long live the lightbringer.

Anyone else considering the strong Paralels between Satan and Prometheus?

Turns out Christianity plagiarized other popular religions of its era?

[Ryan Thunder]

And I'm not sure how it could be written in a way that'd make it interesting...

Honestly Ryan, think about what you just said. Rye is perhaps even more pretentious than I am, and so even more likely to present a story which is designed to make people on this board (and others) ask themselves the question 'what if everything I thought was true, wasn't?'. This applies to both athiests and believers, as the central premise is that God exists and he's racking off. And you can still have explosions and so on in such a story.

It just sounded like it'd end up being Stuart's story in reverse, that's all.

[Ford Prefect]

It just sounded like it'd end up being Stuart's story in reverse, that's all.

It probably would end up like that, with humanity fighting a desperate battle against primordial god-beings responsible for inventing light, gravity and love. The difference here is that there would be slightly more to the story than 'Leviathan of Envy hits New York with an aircraft carrier' or whatever. Obviously Stuart has taken the position in his writing that angels and demons are not celestial architects of fate and just tall dudes with wings, and presented humanity as some sort of titanic ustoppable force which will inevitably defeat everything that gets thrown at it. I have no problem with humanity winning, but if I read a story, the protagonist should sweat for it, not just waltz ont hrough: it completely eliminates tension. I don't think this is any more aptly demonstrated in The Salvation War than with Uriel. When Uriel is supposed to be the biggest badass in the universe. Even setting aside the hyperbole about him being the Sword and Scythe of the One Above All, even Michael considers Uriel by far the most dangerous enemy that humanity has faced.

And you know, how a moment I almost believed it. He can kill tens of thousands of people at a stroke and tanks hits from AIM-152s and just keeps coming back for more. Except ... he's completely useless. Yes, he's probably the most dangerous enemy that humanity has faced, but this makes him slightly more threatening than a speedbump. What has Uriel achieved, exactly? Well, he's managed to turn himself into a complete joke. In his most recent foray, after having come to the decision that he should change tactics, mostly out of fear, he discovers that humans have mostly overcome his ability to erase a person's soul. And not only that, that they don't even remotely take him seriously. You read it, right? How did you not roll your eyes when you got to the line about humans laughing at Uriel? There are, vaguely, some interesting themes at work in Pantheocide, but they're wrapped up in the thickest blanket of 'ooh rah humanity' wankery that it's difficult to even care. Even Stuart's desire to present the results of the huge disparity of force could be compelling and harrowing, but it isn't. If he wanted to deliver a picture of what it's like to be the gun on the machine gun in World War I, he's failing miserably, because it just comes off as twenty bazillion demons getting waxed, then the humans move onto the next pressing issue of getting SAC back into the air.

Therefore he's Lucifer.

I don't see why you couldn't have both. Theological canon is loose enough that having a Satan and a Lucifer is actually pretty reasonable.

[Pick]

Satan and Lucifer could have this wacky odd-couple thing going on, where Satan is the funky dude who plays fast and loose and muddles in human stuff all the time, and Lucifer is a nobler creature who silently seethes in the bowels of Hell and gets angry when people forget which one is the salad pitchfork. They could argue about whether or not you can open your umbrella indoors.

[Ford Prefect]

i think in a discussion about improving the cosmological impact of a story about a war with hell you are not supposed to pitch playing lucifer and satan as gay guys arguing about placemats in pandaemonium

[Pick]

i think in a discussion about improving the cosmological impact of a story about a war with hell you are not supposed to pitch playing lucifer and satan as gay guys arguing about placemats in pandaemonium

what? it's an improvement

*and when I say "odd couple" i mean like the play "The Odd Couple" which was only about dudes sharin' a place (like hell) not boning like crazed ravers. satan/lucifer/morningstar/goatman x-treem being gay is waaaay overplayed

[Stark]

look we need to focus more on how armaggedon's self-satisfied childish smugness is a reflection of all of it's sycophants

and not this split-personality mumm-ra bullshit

OH NOES BY THE MORNING STAR OF LIMBO I AM SAY TAN come on guys

[Ford Prefect]

look we need to focus more on how armaggedon's self-satisfied childish smugness is a reflection of all of it's sycophants

Yeah, but what's there to discuss about that? I mean, yes, part of the problem is that Stuart gets shitloads of positive feedback. People love what he's dishing out, so he keep dishing it out. Classical conditioning. On the other hand, I actually want to talk about something slightly deeper than 'people on SDN may be tasteless nerds' because that makes me an obvious hypocrite.

[Ford Prefect]

dont' make me redub the mumm-ra transofrmation sequence

what do i have to do to make this happen

Yet you're posting in testing.

Where else am I going to go to have a reasonably civil and mildly amusing discussion about the literary merits of some board member's pandering fiction? I can't do it in the Fanfic board, it might reveal the terrible secret that I too write pandering fanfiction.

i mean i finished mass effect like ninety-seven times

never gets old

ps i finished feros this morning

[Pick]

I think hypocrisy when dealing with things of a creative nature is practical unavoidable, since there will always be some similarities between what you want or create and what you're given but may or may not enjoy.

[Samuel]

What would be the best way to make them more of a threat? Have Hell stockpiling weapons to take on heaven for the last 50,000 years and unleash them upon human forces?

[Ford Prefect]

What would be the best way to make them more of a threat? Have Hell stockpiling weapons to take on heaven for the last 50,000 years and unleash them upon human forces?

where are my demons made out of language and ideas wielding weaponised greed

Seriously, how is this even a question? You make them threatening by not making them bronze age peasants.

[Duckie]

I'm an inveterate nerd so I'd just steal from Nobilis and In Nomine.

Then again that would be pretty damn awesome. Azrael amends the concept 'dead' to also include you, for instance, is cooler than 'shoots laser beams of doom'

[Ford Prefect]

On the other hand, 'shoots laser beam of doom' is somewhat easier to write.

[Count Chocula]

OK maybe I'm stupid, but why aren't you reading Pantheocide? It's most unseemly for a Founder to fall behind the recent madding crowd.

[Havok]

Question.
In Armageddon, humans are fighting against Heaven and Hell, or some variation of that, correct?

This implies that God indeed exists.

Why doesn't someone just get some more advanced weapons from on of the other planets that God created? Or does the absence of that idea or train of thought imply that we are indeed special and unique snow flakes?

[RedImperator]

Question.
In Armageddon, humans are fighting against Heaven and Hell, or some variation of that, correct?

This implies that God indeed exists.

Why doesn't someone just get some more advanced weapons from on of the other planets that God created? Or does the absence of that idea or train of thought imply that we are indeed special and unique snow flakes?

God (and the angels and the rest) in this universe are more like the "gods" in Stargate--advanced aliens who pose as gods to primitives, except they have magic innate physical powers instead of advanced technology. They never created anything.

[Count Chocula]

^ In Armageddon, IIRC, humans are mentally fighting Heaven to the extent that we're, the ones who didn't lay down and die anyway, giving a big mental nuclear Fuck You to Yahweh. Even the Vatican excommunicated God after The Message and Lt. Wong's first skirmish.

Humanity's chief antagonists in Armageddon were, however, the forces of Hell. We were playing major catch-up, had to figure out from scratch the physical mechanisms behind portals, miasma, possession, etc., then figure out counters and apply overwhelming force. Although Armageddon turned into "The Curbstomp War," it was a close run affair and if it had lasted a few months longer, or if Satan had had smarter lieutenants (or if he himself had adapted past the Bronze Age), humanity on Earth would have been in an assload of trouble.

In the first few chapters of The Salvation War, Stuart alludes to just how close humanity was to running out of ammunition and equipment to fight Satan's minions.

[Havok]

Question.
In Armageddon, humans are fighting against Heaven and Hell, or some variation of that, correct?

This implies that God indeed exists.

Why doesn't someone just get some more advanced weapons from on of the other planets that God created? Or does the absence of that idea or train of thought imply that we are indeed special and unique snow flakes?

God (and the angels and the rest) in this universe are more like the "gods" in Stargate--advanced aliens who pose as gods to primitives, except they have magic innate physical powers instead of advanced technology. They never created anything.

Oh. That is lame. Everyone and their mother had come up with and used that idea. Even me. And your mother.

[RedImperator]

In the first few chapters of The Salvation War, Stuart alludes to just how close humanity was to running out of ammunition and equipment to fight Satan's minions.

It would have been nice if that had actually happened in the first book.

[Havok]

Lt. Wong

Wait wait wait.

Lt. Wong

Is this in reference to Mike Wong? In the story?

[Ford Prefect]

In the first few chapters of The Salvation War, Stuart alludes to just how close humanity was to running out of ammunition and equipment to fight Satan's minions.

Except of course that this has proven to not even be slightly inconvenient. Yeah, it's mentioned, but it never actually translates to anything concrete. When push comes to shove, no one is exactly short changed when it comes to missiles or bullets or jet fuel. The allusions to logistics trouble are nothing more than that, not even counting as an issue.

Is this in reference to Mike Wong? In the story?

There's a Doctor Surlethe as scientific advisor, too, and a great number of other insertions.

[Count Chocula]

^ Fuck yeah. Flying an F-18, which could just as easily in your imagination be a faux canopy on the ventral side-painted Canadian CF-18:

Chapter One

Eagle Flight, Over The Eastern Pacific
“I, Satan Mekratrig, Lord of Hell, Commander of the Legions of the Damned do hereby declare my dominion over the earth and all that it contains. Crawl to me, humans, knowing the eternity of torment that awaits you.”

“Balls.” Said Lieutenant Michael Wong.

FUCK YEAH!

[Havok]

Is this in reference to Mike Wong? In the story?

There's a Doctor Surlethe as scientific advisor, too, and a great number of other insertions.

Wow. Seriously?

Is this whole thread just to pull a fast one on ol' Hav?