Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[R011]

I'm not sure why we'd want antiques like the 5/38 or the 40 mm L60.

The 76 mm MK 75 has a rate of fire of about eighty to one hundred rounds per minute. It has a range of about twenty kilometers. It's also in use by about a dozen navies besides the USN. The complete mount weighs eight Tonnes.

The two hundred-and-twenty round per minute 57 mm Mk 110 is good enough that many navies prefer it to the Mark 75.

The old 5/38 had an ROF of 15 to 22 RPM for mounts with integral hoists. It had a range of sixteen kilometers (twenty-one with RAP). Single mounts were between thirteen and eighteen Tonnes. I think the only operator today is the Mexican Navy. I suspect spare parts and ammunition would be a challenge.

Nor is there much point to the old quad 40 mm L60. The L70 version has three times the rate of fire, nor is it the only gun in it's class out there. Oerlikon-Contraves, for instance, makes an excellent 35 mm gun which, among other uses, is mounted in the Gepard air defence vehicle.

[R011]

Oh, what about the condition of USS Salem? If bringing back the battleships is unfeasable, what about the last Des Moines?

Isn't there also a preserved CLG in Buffalo? If her engines are repairable, she could be littered in AAA and sent out as well. Ah, yes, USS Little Rock, 3 x 6in, 2 x 5in, twin TALOS. She was acquired as a museum within a year of being struck, which sounds somewhat positive for her engine condition (maybe).

AFAIK, even less feasible. No attempt has been made to keep them operational. Same with other museum ships. Do recall that it cost as much as a brand new frigate and took about a year each for the Iowas in the 1980's, and these were Reserve Fleet ships intended to be reactivated. The battleships, at least, still had large stocks of ammunition and some spare parts, as well as salvagable parts from the museum NC and SoDaks. There are no stocks of eight inch or six inch ammunition or TALOS and I wouldn't be surprised if American 5/38 ammo is gone as well

[Michael Garrity]

Duchess:

USS Des Moines went to the breakers starting in December, 2006. This did not please the residents of Des Moines, Iowa, where I used to live. We had hoped that she would have been preserved as a museum ship.
USS Newport News was broken up in 1993, and USS Salem is preserved as a museum ship in Quincy, Massachusetts.
While on the subject of reactivating museum ships for service in the Hell campaign, do you think the British would reactivate HMS Belfast? She has 12 6" guns in 4 3-gun turrets, 8 4" AA guns in 4 twin mounts and 12 40-mm Bofors in 6 twin mounts.

Mike Garrity

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Oh, what about the condition of USS Salem? If bringing back the battleships is unfeasable, what about the last Des Moines?

Isn't there also a preserved CLG in Buffalo? If her engines are repairable, she could be littered in AAA and sent out as well. Ah, yes, USS Little Rock, 3 x 6in, 2 x 5in, twin TALOS. She was acquired as a museum within a year of being struck, which sounds somewhat positive for her engine condition (maybe).

AFAIK, even less feasible. No attempt has been made to keep them operational. Same with other museum ships. Do recall that it cost as much as a brand new frigate and took about a year each for the Iowas in the 1980's, and these were Reserve Fleet ships intended to be reactivated. The battleships, at least, still had large stocks of ammunition and some spare parts, as well as salvagable parts from the museum NC and SoDaks. There are no stocks of eight inch or six inch ammunition or TALOS and I wouldn't be surprised if American 5/38 ammo is gone as well

Obviously I had no intention of arming them with Talos.

And as for the mentions of 40mm quads--that's basically me trying to establish a basic layout and fit with very simple guns. DARDO requires deck penetration (as do the fast 40's in general), though there might be a slighter older but still better than 40mm/60 mount that could be revived for the purpose?

I hope it at least got people thinking about how much we can put on the ships. Again, deck penetration is a concern. I proposed 5in/38cal forward on the OHPs because I know you could put it on a fairly simple pedestal mount, whereas modern guns with integrated under-deck mountings would require more significant modification to the hull, which takes longer.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Duchess:

USS Des Moines went to the breakers starting in December, 2006. This did not please the residents of Des Moines, Iowa, where I used to live. We had hoped that she would have been preserved as a museum ship.
USS Newport News was broken up in 1993, and USS Salem is preserved as a museum ship in Quincy, Massachusetts.
While on the subject of reactivating museum ships for service in the Hell campaign, do you think the British would reactivate HMS Belfast? She has 12 6" guns in 4 3-gun turrets, 8 4" AA guns in 4 twin mounts and 12 40-mm Bofors in 6 twin mounts.

Mike Garrity

I'm aware of DM and NN. I was referring exclusively to Salem. *shrug* The British might, simply because their fleet is so pathetic as it stands. The Type-82 is definitely back in service..

[Michael Garrity]

I have missed some of the earlier parts of 'Armageddon', so I would like to know if the A-10 Thunderbolt and AC-130 Spectre will be making an appearance.
Imagine the poetic justice of the baldricks being shredded by the Spectres...

Mike Garrity

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I have missed some of the earlier parts of 'Armageddon', so I would like to know if the A-10 Thunderbolt and AC-130 Spectre will be making an appearance.
Imagine the poetic justice of the baldricks being shredded by the Spectres...

Mike Garrity

After we gain Air Superiority by killing all the damn Harpies. No, I don't have a line to Stu or secret spoiler stash, it's just American military SOP.

[White Haven]

Have a look at the Completed Fanfics subforum up top, Michael. The whole story so far, minus a hundred or so pages of commentary, are up there in a single thread that's somewhat akin to a sixty-five-round magazine of Awesome.

[Zim]

I have missed some of the earlier parts of 'Armageddon', so I would like to know if the A-10 Thunderbolt and AC-130 Spectre will be making an appearance.
Imagine the poetic justice of the baldricks being shredded by the Spectres...

Mike Garrity

After we gain Air Superiority by killing all the damn Harpies. No, I don't have a line to Stu or secret spoiler stash, it's just American military SOP.

The Russians just offed nearly 100k harpies. I think Beelzebub might be a bit wary of committing his remaining aerial units.

Belial's Wyverns are still kicking, but he only seems to have a couple dozen "wings" of them. To me, it doesn't seem like he has to enough to even fill out an entire legion, so I think attrition will grind them out soon enough.

[bilateralrope]

I have missed some of the earlier parts of 'Armageddon', so I would like to know if the A-10 Thunderbolt and AC-130 Spectre will be making an appearance.
Imagine the poetic justice of the baldricks being shredded by the Spectres...

Mike Garrity

After we gain Air Superiority by killing all the damn Harpies. No, I don't have a line to Stu or secret spoiler stash, it's just American military SOP.

The Russians just offed nearly 100k harpies. I think Beelzebub might be a bit wary of committing his remaining aerial units.

Belial's Wyverns are still kicking, but he only seems to have a couple dozen "wings" of them. To me, it doesn't seem like he has to enough to even fill out an entire legion, so I think attrition will grind them out soon enough.

Yes, only 80 were sent and only 53 survived the first pass.

[K. A. Pital]

...against thousands of harpies that would be a serious limitation

I'd say that sending several BPK/BDKs with autonomy upgraded to 1 month or more as anti-air platform could be wise if we're looking at downing thousands of them.

After all, the CNV-carried planes can't handle everything and wasting their fuel on a massive air battle with harpies might not be the best idea.

Resupply ships are a must, however, given such approximated combat intensity.

[Stormbringer]

That depends on the time period, now, in fifty years, 200 years from now.

Why not? ? not like its that hard to do.

None of the SoDaks or the North Carolina have operational guns either.

So ruining one lot of weapons is an excuse to ruin another lot? you dont preserve history by doing that.[/quote]

Except in the long run, the specialized parts and supplies to actually keep working guns are going to disappear. We are no longer able to make most of them already and are running from a stockpile. You can't keep the guns working forever (at least not for less than a moderately large fortune) and that's pretty much the end of the story. It really doesn't matter much if the end came from de-miling or time.

They wanted to end the chance of one faction nicking the money for their pet project or future project, and some ones pet project had to die. So yeah, it was spite, they did it because they could. They were not coming back, their was no money, it was not necessary.

While you put it with far more rancor, that's not really anything different from what I said. The Navy simply didn't want to spend the money preserving them as potential fighting ships when they were never again likely to be such. It's not like they were just being stuck in the attic; maintaing the ships (and the supplies for their completely unique weapons) cost a lot of money. And the existence of those obsolete battlewagons was an issue with their reserve status being justification for not moving forward with modern naval fire support and as the focus of quixotic quests to revive them using the same as justification.

[JBG]

I'm not sure why we'd want antiques like the 5/38 or the 40 mm L60.

The 76 mm MK 75 has a rate of fire of about eighty to one hundred rounds per minute. It has a range of about twenty kilometers. It's also in use by about a dozen navies besides the USN. The complete mount weighs eight Tonnes.

The two hundred-and-twenty round per minute 57 mm Mk 110 is good enough that many navies prefer it to the Mark 75.

The old 5/38 had an ROF of 15 to 22 RPM for mounts with integral hoists. It had a range of sixteen kilometers (twenty-one with RAP). Single mounts were between thirteen and eighteen Tonnes. I think the only operator today is the Mexican Navy. I suspect spare parts and ammunition would be a challenge.

Nor is there much point to the old quad 40 mm L60. The L70 version has three times the rate of fire, nor is it the only gun in it's class out there. Oerlikon-Contraves, for instance, makes an excellent 35 mm gun which, among other uses, is mounted in the Gepard air defence vehicle.

I think RO11 has beaten me to the punch in the only parts of your post that I disagree with, Your Grace.

The quad 40 mm Bofors tub is very much a WW2 concept. Given automated operation and fire control, twin Oerlikon 35 mm guns, for instance, should more than replace the quad 40 mm. If not then up-dated Breda twin 40 mm mounts.

For calibers less than 35 mm and for the naval expeditionary task force into hell strict control should be kept over the calibers of gun and ammo types carried. 20/25/30 mm should be standardised into 25 mm. Otherwise logistics could get tricky. Below that the classic M2 seems likely to star in yet another war.

5"/38s don't seem to be worth the effort. Some can be refurnished but add to that the training of crews and factory workers, adaption to at least semi-modern fire control systems etc and you are perhaps better off putting the proverbial bullet up the backsides of Oto-Melara to produce a shit lload more super compact 76 mm and up Bofors to produce more 57 mm ( 6 pounder! ) mounts and guns.

Jonathan

[Stuart Mackey]

They wanted to end the chance of one faction nicking the money for their pet project or future project, and some ones pet project had to die. So yeah, it was spite, they did it because they could. They were not coming back, their was no money, it was not necessary.

I don;t think it was spite, I think it was simply some junior officer brown-nosing for promotion by demonstrating his efficiency. The de-mill order came through and that means, for starters, 'cripple the guns' (on an aircraft it means 'cut the wing spars and fuselage frames'). Lieutenant Dooright immediately grabs a welding torch and some angle irons and sets off to do his deed, thus impressing everybody with his zeal and initiative. Having finished, he's on his way back when teh Admiral stops him with "Oh, Dooright, don't bother to send a work detail for demilling the battlewagons, the order has been rescinded."

"GULP"

Never look for malignity when idiocy is an equally viable explanation.

This is true. Must be the political system here, where spite is an all to viable reason for things happening.

[Stuart Mackey]

Wouldn't having a permanent ocean hole open increase the risk of Hell aquatic creatures coming through to Earth?

It'd surely be well guarded.

And lets not forget about environmental effects, its not just warlike effects that will be a concern esp in the future.

[Stuart Mackey]

The Flower-class corvettes and a number of U.S. Navy DEs used diesel power plants. In fact, the Cyclone's diesel plant has about 600 more horsepower than the Flower plant did.

A Flower isn’t diesel powered, the things had a single triple expansion steam engine! The whole ship was based off the design of a whaler too; it is NOT a sound basis for further development in any way. For 1000 tons displacement you can find numerous much more modern ships to work from. Its not like the small escort building business simply died after WW2 ended.

My mistake on the propulsion. I had misread it in my copy of Jane's Fighting Ships of World War II.

That said, there is one benefit to some of these WWII designs - they would be simpler and easier to build quickly. Sumner-class DDs were built in six months.

You don't need a bolt-for-bolt copy, you just need something along the same lines.

If you want a cheap escort look at something like what the NZ navy or the Irish have for OPV's, less the helicopter hanger on the NZ OPV's. The ship would not have to be milspec and can be built quickly albeit to a slightly larger size if you want greater AA gun armament and dont require alarge crew.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Wouldn't having a permanent ocean hole open increase the risk of Hell aquatic creatures coming through to Earth?

It'd surely be well guarded.

And lets not forget about environmental effects, its not just warlike effects that will be a concern esp in the future.

Perhaps the portal should be opened in some atoll so it can easily be ringed with locks and dikes to stop HELL WATER from getting into the ocean at large?

[Stuart Mackey]

Except in the long run, the specialized parts and supplies to actually keep working guns are going to disappear. We are no longer able to make most of them already and are running from a stockpile. You can't keep the guns working forever (at least not for less than a moderately large fortune) and that's pretty much the end of the story. It really doesn't matter much if the end came from de-miling or time.

?? I was referring to preserving, them not actually shooting anything. When you go about preserving something as a museum piece, ideally you put into a form of 'stasis' so the item can be studied for future generations.

While you put it with far more rancor, that's not really anything different from what I said. The Navy simply didn't want to spend the money preserving them as potential fighting ships when they were never again likely to be such. It's not like they were just being stuck in the attic; maintaing the ships (and the supplies for their completely unique weapons) cost a lot of money. And the existence of those obsolete battlewagons was an issue with their reserve status being justification for not moving forward with modern naval fire support and as the focus of quixotic quests to revive them using the same as justification.

All they had to do was museum them, and them they are gone from the navy, like Belfast or indeed Victory. As I said there was no need for what happened, when you consider what being a museum is, and they would no longer be on the list, or even owned by the navy if they wanted.

[Raesene]

A pity Enterprise isn't boldy going where no ship has gone before

Keep posting deleted scenes, it's keeping the shakes away.

HMS Belfast is likely in the same condition the US museums are in, I doubt the RN wants her back in service.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

A pity Enterprise isn't boldy going where no ship has gone before ;-)

Keep posting deleted scenes, it's keeping the shakes away.

HMS Belfast is likely in the same condition the US museums are in, I doubt the RN wants her back in service.

She's probably in worse condition, it's just that British shipbuilding is in such a poor state, and the RN so deteoriated in overall strength, that what is pointless to the USN may be palatable to the RN.

[phongn]

A pity Enterprise isn't boldy going where no ship has gone before

* groan *

That would almost be too good to pass up

[tveditor]

A pity Enterprise isn't boldy going where no ship has gone before

Keep posting deleted scenes, it's keeping the shakes away.

HMS Belfast is likely in the same condition the US museums are in, I doubt the RN wants her back in service.

She's probably in worse condition, it's just that British shipbuilding is in such a poor state, and the RN so deteoriated in overall strength, that what is pointless to the USN may be palatable to the RN.

What deleted scene? I don't see any deleted scene. Anyway how is navigation going to work in hell. Now the Navy use GPS, before that they used the stars. What in the hell are they going to do in hell?

[phongn]

What deleted scene? I don't see any deleted scene. Anyway how is navigation going to work in hell. Now the Navy use GPS, before that they used the stars. What in the hell are they going to do in hell?

Er, there are not a few methods between astronavigation and GPS. LORAN is probably the most common example.

[tveditor]

but won't the same problems that affect the land based systems affect those as well (I have no idea that LORAN stands for btw).

[phongn]

but won't the same problems that affect the land based systems affect those as well (I have no idea that LORAN stands for btw).

Yes, but earlier chapters noted that the mathematical topographers were resolving the issue of Hell's unusual geometry.