Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[[R_H]]

And as for the mentions of 40mm quads--that's basically me trying to establish a basic layout and fit with very simple guns. DARDO requires deck penetration (as do the fast 40's in general), though there might be a slighter older but still better than 40mm/60 mount that could be revived for the purpose?

I hope it at least got people thinking about how much we can put on the ships. Again, deck penetration is a concern. I proposed 5in/38cal forward on the OHPs because I know you could put it on a fairly simple pedestal mount, whereas modern guns with integrated under-deck mountings would require more significant modification to the hull, which takes longer.

There are two different mounts available for the DARDO. The Type A mount adds 292 HE rounds underdeck, in addition to the 440 rounds in the turret, while the Type B mount does not have the 292 round magazine under deck and therefore has no deck penetration. Source

[Stormbringer]

?? I was referring to preserving, them not actually shooting anything. When you go about preserving something as a museum piece, ideally you put into a form of 'stasis' so the item can be studied for future generations.

If you're not talking about actually shooting them, why get bent out of shape by some small bits of metal, documented I might add? It's not like they chopped the guns to bits or something.

All they had to do was museum them, and them they are gone from the navy, like Belfast or indeed Victory. As I said there was no need for what happened, when you consider what being a museum is, and they would no longer be on the list, or even owned by the navy if they wanted.

Except, as I've repeatedly point out, they were not being allowed to do that. There were and still are a lot of political games aimed at keeping them some form of reserve indefinitely.

[Stuart Mackey]

?? I was referring to preserving, them not actually shooting anything. When you go about preserving something as a museum piece, ideally you put into a form of 'stasis' so the item can be studied for future generations.

If you're not talking about actually shooting them, why get bent out of shape by some small bits of metal, documented I might add? It's not like they chopped the guns to bits or something.

And if they are not funded, as you pointed out, then why do it? Lack of funding will kill a ship a lot faster than welding bits of metal into vital components.

Except, as I've repeatedly point out, they were not being allowed to do that.

Eh? two of them are already stricken and the other two (previously four) are not funded, as you pointed out, to do what is required. So who cares what a bit of legislation says, when there is no money, no one works for free and industries are not kept operational for free.

There were and still are a lot of political games aimed at keeping them some form of reserve indefinitely.

And those groups obviously don't hold the purse strings, and as you pointed out, they are not funded. They are not coming back, we both know it, that bunch of stubborn romantics don't understand what lack of money means is hardly our fault.

[JointStrikeFighter]

I think your all over estimating the threat harpies are to shipping. Think of the environment; there isn't going to be vast million strong harpy swarms flying around miles out to see. Hell, even FINDING a CVBG using modern aircraft that fly perhaps 2-3 times as fast as a harpy is damn hard.

[KlavoHunter]

And who even knows what the population of Harpies is in Hell?

Who know, maybe we've killed a vast chunk of their entire population with that gassing.

[Mr. Coffee]

Here's a thought on Harpies... How far can one of them fly before it needs to land and rest up? Just send some aerial refueling bird through the main portal to supliment what they have aboard the carriers and keep them parked a couple hundred miles out to sea. No more worries about Harpies.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And who even knows what the population of Harpies is in Hell?

Who know, maybe we've killed a vast chunk of their entire population with that gassing.

We don't know their range, or their population. So we have to be safe, and that means festooning ships in autocannons.

[JointStrikeFighter]

And who even knows what the population of Harpies is in Hell?

Who know, maybe we've killed a vast chunk of their entire population with that gassing.

We don't know their range, or their population. So we have to be safe, and that means festooning ships in autocannons.

They're Birds. Giant Birds. Giant Land Based Birds. What makes you think they can safely operate hundreds of kilometres out to sea? What makes you think they can even FIND naval forces. Not only do they have to find naval forces but then they have to mass for an attack. Million strong harpy groups aren't just going to be flying around looking for ships to attack. They're a smaller threat than ASMs are today.

Im all for fitting a few more AA guns to ships, but the proposals for WW2 Flak ships are far overboard.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And who even knows what the population of Harpies is in Hell?

Who know, maybe we've killed a vast chunk of their entire population with that gassing.

We don't know their range, or their population. So we have to be safe, and that means festooning ships in autocannons.

They're Birds. Giant Birds. Giant Land Based Birds. What makes you think they can safely operate hundreds of kilometres out to sea? What makes you think they can even FIND naval forces. Not only do they have to find naval forces but then they have to mass for an attack. Million strong harpy groups aren't just going to be flying around looking for ships to attack. They're a smaller threat than ASMs are today.

Im all for fitting a few more AA guns to ships, but the proposals for WW2 Flak ships are far overboard.

They'll find naval forces the same way we did in WW2, by sending out reconaissance Wyverns (longer range and more endurance) with psion riders to report the position of the enemy force when it's sighted. And a lot of the time, just like in WW2, they won't be found. But a fair bit of the time they will be, too. It's possible to know the ways of the sea, and therefore have some idea of where your enemies are (less now that we're not in the days of sail, but still). That and we really just Do Not Know how many harpies there are.

Anyway, you're simply a dumbfuck, because you can find birds thousands of miles out to sea, are we clear? Seabirds, certainly, but we also don't know if there aren't any harpies or wyverns which can float. Would you like to find out the hard way, by having a carrier taskgroup sunk?

[JointStrikeFighter]

How the FUCK are they going to sink a CVBG? They can um....break off the radars and that's about it.

Oh and oops. Standard just blew up your recon Wyvern 200km away.

[Sea Skimmer]

They're Birds. Giant Birds. Giant Land Based Birds. What makes you think they can safely operate hundreds of kilometres out to sea?

Dude, are you fucking kidding? There are birds on earth that make nonstop migrations that are 3-4,000 miles long every single year! Birds routinely fly hundreds and even thousands of miles across open water, and thanks to biological compasses they don’t get lost.

What makes you think they can even FIND naval forces.

Send out scouts; look at what direction our planes fly back away; use Kraken, they have methods they can use and we’d be nuts to dismiss the threat when we don’t actually even know how extensive it really is.

Not only do they have to find naval forces but then they have to mass for an attack. Million strong harpy groups aren't just going to be flying around looking for ships to attack. They're a smaller threat than ASMs are today.

Individually sure, but even the strongest militaries on earth would have a hard time firing off 100 ASMs at us at once; Harpies come by the tens of thousands and our systems are simply not designed to handle saturation like that. Without a massive increase in armament the only other option would be nuclear warheads on Standards.

Im all for fitting a few more AA guns to ships, but the proposals for WW2 Flak ships are far overboard.

Then how else do you propose a fleet be able to deal with 10,000 attackers? In case you didn’t notice that’s far short of what the maximum threat could be, and chemical weapons aren’t going to be an option for warships.

As for inflicting damage, a harpy attacking an active carrier could easily set the thing on fire, and fire at sea will destroy anything. A carrier is a floating bomb in every possible way.

[Chris OFarrell]

Can the modern blocks of the SM2 even CARRY nukes without a lot of work? I'd have thought the current generation have been so specalized and enhanced for their conventional kill role that it wouldn't be easy to just hot swap a nuclear warhead in.

Though I would expect the navy would have been working to get a crash nuclear capacity back on their ships since the war went hot, which may include nuclear gravity bombs at a minimum. I don't think the USN's Rhinos have a nuclear AAM capability, do they?

Of course, the Kirovs navalized S-300's should be nuclear capable, I would think...

And frankly, nuclear SAM's are a FAR better solution against harpies then something as crazy as letting them get in close to use AAA against them.

And I think people are overstating the chances of Harpies being able to track down surface groups, with airborne radar coverage, the Harpies will be seen more then long enough to make sure they find nothing, or having aircraft lead them in completely the wrong direction before they get out of range and change course back to the carriers.

Sure they are a threat and you don't want to take it lightly, but the odds of harpies being able to find a surface group are very low, given the omnipresence of modern surveillance technologies.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Dude, are you fucking kidding? There are birds on earth that make nonstop migrations that are 3-4,000 miles long every single year! Birds routinely fly hundreds and even thousands of miles across open water, and thanks to biological compasses they don’t get lost.

Those birds also spend weeks making those journeys and eat along the way.

Send out scouts; look at what direction our planes fly back away; use Kraken, they have methods they can use and we’d be nuts to dismiss the threat when we don’t actually even know how extensive it really is.

Are kraken the underwater creatures that the British submarine destroyed at the stories start?

Regardless given the time lag in Hells communication methods and the [relatively] slow movement speed of harpies by the time a scout locates a CVBG, miraculously inst shot down, reports back to its superiors [TK is relatively short range [non-BVR] or so i understand?] and then sufficient harpy forces are able to concentrate for the battle AND THEN move to attack the CVBG could have covered a huge area.

Individually sure, but even the strongest militaries on earth would have a hard time firing off 100 ASMs at us at once; Harpies come by the tens of thousands and our systems are simply not designed to handle saturation like that. Without a massive increase in armament the only other option would be nuclear warheads on Standards.

Nuclear warheads make FAR FAR FAR more sense than dedicated Flak boats.

Nobody is saying more CIWS isn't needed, several non-deck penetrating mounts could easily be fitted to warships, but what I am saying is that purpose built ships solely intended as gun based flak boats is stupid.

Then how else do you propose a fleet be able to deal with 10,000 attackers? In case you didn’t notice that’s far short of what the maximum threat could be, and chemical weapons aren’t going to be an option for warships.

Out of curiosity could a SAM warhead that dispersed a cloud of nerve gas infront of harpy swarms be devised?

As for inflicting damage, a harpy attacking an active carrier could easily set the thing on fire, and fire at sea will destroy anything. A carrier is a floating bomb in every possible way.

I forgot about fire. Dont newer carriers have automated systems that can flood the deck with water to prevent fires ala Forestal?

[Sea Skimmer]

Those birds also spend weeks making those journeys and eat along the way.

No, you just have no idea what you are talking about period. Non-stop means what it says. In fact the Bar-tailed Godwit makes a 7,000 mile migration from Alaska to New Zealand without stopping and completely over the open ocean… in one week. Work that out and it only has to fly at about 45mph to do it. In real life the fastest birds can fly at over 100mph in level flight so this is no big deal.

Are kraken the underwater creatures that the British submarine destroyed at the stories start?

Yes, though that Kraken was also a herald, common kraken are probably different and diverse.

Regardless given the time lag in Hells communication methods and the [relatively] slow movement speed of harpies by the time a scout locates a CVBG, miraculously inst shot down, reports back to its superiors [TK is relatively short range [non-BVR] or so i understand?] and then sufficient harpy forces are able to concentrate for the battle AND THEN move to attack the CVBG could have covered a huge area.

So the enemies attack will be difficult hun? And we shouldn’t use our massive war mobilization to properly prepare to face it? That kind of thinking is how you get kicked in the face .

Nuclear warheads make FAR FAR FAR more sense than dedicated Flak boats.

Did you miss miss the dozens of times in this thread when its been pointed out that we want to hold back nuclear weapons as much as possible? Remember right now a whole earth Army is going into action against millions of Bladricks we could have wiped out with a couple nukes too.

Nobody is saying more CIWS isn't needed, several non-deck penetrating mounts could easily be fitted to warships, but what I am saying is that purpose built ships solely intended as gun based flak boats is stupid.

I agree purpose built hull design is unnecessary at this stage, it will be easy enough to convert and adapt designs intended for other things and I expect production of heavy automatic weapons will mostly be guzzled up by ground units and upgrading existing ships. I do see a real need for dedicated ships to defend ports and make local patrols in hell, and these will pretty logically be armed with duel purpose heavy automatic batteries, plus some depth charges, maybe a system like Limbo of the Kraken threat is large enough.

Out of curiosity could a SAM warhead that dispersed a cloud of nerve gas infront of harpy swarms be devised?

Sure, but it would work absurdly poorly at best, with just a few SAMs bursting at a time you’ll never get a lethal cloud in formed in the open air. Adapting MLRS rockets to naval use would be a better way of getting nerve gas capability, they could be radio command guided for improved accuracy in the absence of magic bomb on dot GPS; Israel has already developed this capability for its own MLRS rockets.

I forgot about fire. Dont newer carriers have automated systems that can flood the deck with water to prevent fires ala Forestal?

You need a huge blanket of foam to control a jet fuel fire, and automated foam systems aren’t that common. Many improvements in firefighting and damage control have been made since the Vietnam fires, but a carrier is still at mortal risk whenever it has its air group armed and fueled on hanger or flight deck. Forestal was lucky when she had her fire, because unlike the Japanese at Midway she had all her bombed up planes on the flight deck, with the blasts then occuring in the open air rather then in the confines of the hanger.

[Raesene]

Aren't modern warships sealed against NBC-weapons ? I remember a picture of a carrier testing its washing system to remove residues of such an attack (Couldn't find it again, unfortunately). The use of chemical weapons may be the ultimate point defense system if the harpies land to attack or drop baldricks on the ships.

Against kraken or similar beings attacking from below, I expect the chemical agent (when thinking about something like a chemical depth charge) to be too diluted in a very short time to be effective.

[JointStrikeFighter]

No, you just have no idea what you are talking about period. Non-stop means what it says. In fact the Bar-tailed Godwit makes a 7,000 mile migration from Alaska to New Zealand without stopping and completely over the open ocean… in one week. Work that out and it only has to fly at about 45mph to do it. In real life the fastest birds can fly at over 100mph in level flight so this is no big deal.

My apologies, conceded.

I agree purpose built hull design is unnecessary at this stage, it will be easy enough to convert and adapt designs intended for other things and I expect production of heavy automatic weapons will mostly be guzzled up by ground units and upgrading existing ships. I do see a real need for dedicated ships to defend ports and make local patrols in hell, and these will pretty logically be armed with duel purpose heavy automatic batteries, plus some depth charges, maybe a system like Limbo of the Kraken threat is large enough.

Yeh, i must say i agree with a purpose built vessel for harbour protection etc. i was thinking more in terms of the roving fleet.

[Starglider]

Seabirds, certainly, but we also don't know if there aren't any harpies or wyverns which can float. Would you like to find out the hard way, by having a carrier taskgroup sunk?

Harpies and wyverns would float like corks, due to their low tissue density and lots of hydrogen + air sacs. However they'd both have a hard time taking off again if they landed on water; a harpy might manage a brute-force vertical takeoff, but a wyvern needs a long takeoff run. I suppose the demons could fit them with large flat 'shoes' and then they could take off like swans (very big, ugly swans) - training them to do that would certainly be amusing.

[Bayonet]

Are kraken the underwater creatures that the British submarine destroyed at the stories start?

Kraken in @ are legendary Norse sea monsters, possibly based on the giant squid. Capt Nemo's Giant Squid was probably a small one. Here's the Wikipedia entry on them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraken

The critter killed by the submarine seemed more like a giant plesiosaur.

We know nothing about any of their capabilitioes, although the plesiosaurs appeared rather fragile to sonar lashing. I suspect that regular ash cans would really make them squirm.

[Bayonet]

Aren't modern warships sealed against NBC-weapons ? I remember a picture of a carrier testing its washing system to remove residues of such an attack (Couldn't find it again, unfortunately). The use of chemical weapons may be the ultimate point defense system if the harpies land to attack or drop baldricks on the ships.

There are a number of problems in using CW at sea. The GB attack by the Russians was just about optimal use, with the Harpies landed and massed. If they are airborne, then they are likely to be too dispersed to cover well, and getting them to fly through the right cloud at the right time would be iffy. It would be spactacular if it worked, though. On shipboard, the wind caused by the ship's motion would be a problem.

I could envision some sort of CW spray system, but it's not been developed. It would be a horrific modern version of the old trick of playing steam hoses on boarders.

Decon sould still be a nightmare, unless we developed some specifically Anti Baldric or Anti Wyvern agents. Again, we ain't got any of those in the cupboard.

[R011]

I could envision some sort of CW spray system, but it's not been developed. It would be a horrific modern version of the old trick of playing steam hoses on boarders.

Decon sould still be a nightmare, unless we developed some specifically Anti Baldric or Anti Wyvern agents. Again, we ain't got any of those in the cupboard.

Something like Mustard would probably be better than a nerve agent A missed spot means a very nasty chemical burn rather than a sailor doing the funky chicken.

I wouldn't be so sure, BTW, that Baldrick specific, or at least Baldrick optimized CW agents aren't in the pipeline.

[Michael Garrity]

Chris:

A possible candidate for a nuclear SAM would be a guided version of the Genie AIR-2A nuclear rocket. This weapon was basically a unguided rocket armed with a 1.5-KT warhead; it was designed to bring down entire formations of Soviet bombers.
As for nuclear artillery, the smallest practical bore diameter is 155-mm (6.1"). The warhead which was developed for this caliber is the W48, with a yield of .072-KT. The W82 155-mm shell had a yield of 2-KT, and was designed as a neuron bomb. The W33 shell for the 8" howitzer was known as a "dial-a-bomb', as it had four possible yields between 5 and 40 KT.
The W74 shell (also for the 8" gun) had a yield of around 0.1-KT.

Mike Garrity

[Sea Skimmer]

A possible candidate for a nuclear SAM would be a guided version of the Genie AIR-2A nuclear rocket. This weapon was basically a unguided rocket armed with a 1.5-KT warhead; it was designed to bring down entire formations of Soviet bombers.

Trying to make a totally obsolete rocket into a missile is unnecessary; the USAF developed several guided air to air nuclear missiles besides the unguided Genie, mainly AIM-26 Falcon and Sparrow X, and it had concepts for others. The USN meanwhile had nuclear warhead versions of its Terrier and Talos SAMs all the way until 1989. A nuclear Standard would be a pretty straightforward design job, but its all unnecessary. IF we wanted to use nukes, a jet could simply drop a nuclear gravity bomb into the harpies swarm for air burst.

As for nuclear artillery, the smallest practical bore diameter is 155-mm (6.1").

Thats the smallest nuclear shell the US built, it it not the smallest practical bore diameter. The US Army actually proposed a nuclear 105mm howitzer shell which would have weighed about 45lbs, but couldn’t secure funding for it in view of the limited range a 105mm howitzer firing such a heavy projectile. Yield would have been extremely low, several tens of tons, but theoretically an even more compact designs are possible. The smallest nuclear artillery shells ever actually built are 152mm Soviet rounds.

[Michael Garrity]

There has been much said about using large numbers of autocannons and machineguns to defend against attack by swarms of Harpies. It seems to me that sustainability of fire would be very important in such a situation.
Accordingly, I direct your attention to the use of water-cooled weapons. Water-cooled twin .50-caliber HMGs were quite common in WWII; as long as the water was circulated and the ammunition was supplied, the weapon would keep firing.
An indication of how long fire could be kept up was seen in a test personally conducted by John Browning. He set up one of his .30-caliber MGs with a water cooling system and a rather large supply of ammunition. More than a hour later, he stopped firing; 48,000+ rounds had been expended.

Mike Garrity

[JBG]

Those birds also spend weeks making those journeys and eat along the way.

No, you just have no idea what you are talking about period. Non-stop means what it says. In fact the Bar-tailed Godwit makes a 7,000 mile migration from Alaska to New Zealand without stopping and completely over the open ocean… in one week. Work that out and it only has to fly at about 45mph to do it. In real life the fastest birds can fly at over 100mph in level flight so this is no big deal.

Are kraken the underwater creatures that the British submarine destroyed at the stories start?

Yes, though that Kraken was also a herald, common kraken are probably different and diverse.

Regardless given the time lag in Hells communication methods and the [relatively] slow movement speed of harpies by the time a scout locates a CVBG, miraculously inst shot down, reports back to its superiors [TK is relatively short range [non-BVR] or so i understand?] and then sufficient harpy forces are able to concentrate for the battle AND THEN move to attack the CVBG could have covered a huge area.

So the enemies attack will be difficult hun? And we shouldn’t use our massive war mobilization to properly prepare to face it? That kind of thinking is how you get kicked in the face .

Nuclear warheads make FAR FAR FAR more sense than dedicated Flak boats.

Did you miss miss the dozens of times in this thread when its been pointed out that we want to hold back nuclear weapons as much as possible? Remember right now a whole earth Army is going into action against millions of Bladricks we could have wiped out with a couple nukes too.

Nobody is saying more CIWS isn't needed, several non-deck penetrating mounts could easily be fitted to warships, but what I am saying is that purpose built ships solely intended as gun based flak boats is stupid.

I agree purpose built hull design is unnecessary at this stage, it will be easy enough to convert and adapt designs intended for other things and I expect production of heavy automatic weapons will mostly be guzzled up by ground units and upgrading existing ships. I do see a real need for dedicated ships to defend ports and make local patrols in hell, and these will pretty logically be armed with duel purpose heavy automatic batteries, plus some depth charges, maybe a system like Limbo of the Kraken threat is large enough.

Out of curiosity could a SAM warhead that dispersed a cloud of nerve gas infront of harpy swarms be devised?

Sure, but it would work absurdly poorly at best, with just a few SAMs bursting at a time you’ll never get a lethal cloud in formed in the open air. Adapting MLRS rockets to naval use would be a better way of getting nerve gas capability, they could be radio command guided for improved accuracy in the absence of magic bomb on dot GPS; Israel has already developed this capability for its own MLRS rockets.

I forgot about fire. Dont newer carriers have automated systems that can flood the deck with water to prevent fires ala Forestal?

You need a huge blanket of foam to control a jet fuel fire, and automated foam systems aren’t that common. Many improvements in firefighting and damage control have been made since the Vietnam fires, but a carrier is still at mortal risk whenever it has its air group armed and fueled on hanger or flight deck. Forestal was lucky when she had her fire, because unlike the Japanese at Midway she had all her bombed up planes on the flight deck, with the blasts then occuring in the open air rather then in the confines of the hanger.

All good points, Sea Skimmer. Plus, as you alluded to and as Her Grace has alluded to, fighting Hell's denizens goes beyond planning to face what creatures have been faced already using known tactics. Stuart some time ago inferred, with an evil grin on his face, that hell had cards up its sleeve for the current big battle going on. And so with the Wyverns and Naga, it has proved. New tactics and creatures could be faced on the ocean of hell or in it's littoral regions. And another plus, as Stuart keeps pointing out. Demons are smart. Look at Asmodeous's solution to the communication problem in planning how to deal with free hell.

I'd rather err on the side of caution and load up on automatic cannon for the naval forces.

BTW, a harpy could do some damage to a CVN if it landed n an AEGIS panel and let rip with its claws and fire, with acid blood to add to the mix if peppered with rounds whilst doing so. A number of them getting through could damage communications, sensors, personnel on deck and of course aircraft parked on deck.

[Bayonet]

Something like Mustard would probably be better than a nerve agent A missed spot means a very nasty chemical burn rather than a sailor doing the funky chicken.

Too slow. Mustard takes hours to days to have effect. It is also highly persistant. You want a non persistant agent to dose yourself with. Perhaps something like HCN, wich is lighter than air, and disperses rapidly. The Russians stock (stocked?) it as an non persistant agent for use on areas that were to be immediately attacked.