The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Tandrax218]

What hapens to people who die and go to hell?? If they die of old age are they traped in a body that looks like it's 85 years old but still has superhuman strenght ????

[ANTIcarrot]

Not to mention Caesar's diplomatic immunity, as per his being a head of state.

You're confusing several legal theories there.
1) Diplomatic Immunity means a state's representative cannot be tried for crimes under another state's jurisdiction. Traffic fines for double parking are popular here.

2) Immunity From Prosecution means a head of state cannot be tried for crimes that are unavoidable as part of their job. For example, tax is technically theft, the army has a lot of health and safety violations, etc. In some nations though, leaders can still be tried and convicted for some crimes which subvert their job description, like treason or corruption. Similarly, Patton doesn't get charged with mass-murder (part of his job) but faced a lot of trouble when he punched one of his own soldiers just once (not part of his job).

3) Universal Jurisdiction however means that no head of state has immunity to Crimes Against Humanity; concepts which are by the way quite clearly written down in comparatively simple language. CaH requires that the leader orders or simply knows about the terrible actions in question and does nothing to stop them. Crucially, it does not require the leader's nation being a signatory to any convention.

4) Might Makes Right. The rather primitive but eminently practical 'legal theory' that most often prevents Universal Jurisdiction being applied in practice. Try to arrest Bush on ground of Torture, and you'd face a war. Which is why CaH almost never comes up unless a state of war already exists, or an ex-dictator does something amazingly stupid; like going to a liberal democracy for medical treatment. Current attempts to arrest the pope are an exception, rather than the practice.

[Simon_Jester]

What hapens to people who die and go to hell?? If they die of old age are they traped in a body that looks like it's 85 years old but still has superhuman strenght ????

Stuart already covered this, in Armageddon: second life bodies appear in middle age, at the oldest. So... call it forty or a very well preserved fifty, maybe.

Also, please try to use fewer question marks, as a personal favor if nothing else.

[Eevin]

Just because Tesla got some things right and some of his inventions worked doesn't mean he got everything right, or that they would have worked if only he had the resources. You have to remember that Tesla was also known for making outlandish claims, claim he never made good on. Even ones he supposedly already accomplished in small scale he didn't submit for public viewing. This was also the man who claimed that placing enough explosives in certain parts of the planet could split it in half. Just because someone claims he can build something doesn't mean he could, or even can.

But some of his other creations where impressive, and worked, if not always for the reasons he though. But yes, Tesla was... volatile in many ways. It did not help that he had a serious OCD in a time where psychology was almost unknown. And I suppose that is the question is with old genius. Will they be able to let go of their old ideas and manias to join modern science, or are they condemned to be slightly tolerated weirdos.

Stuart already covered this, in Armageddon: second life bodies appear in middle age, at the oldest. So... call it forty or a very well preserved fifty, maybe.

And if you die younger than middle age you get the body you died with.

But... Children go to hell with the body of... well... children. But what happens to their mind? It can mature with the years, and in the end you get an adult trapped in the body of a child. (And that brings a lot of questions about consent). Or the mind can never grow up. Humans are neotenic animals, so our brain does not fully mature for a long time (there is discussion if teens have a mature brain or if we have to wait for the hormonal disaster to end to say a brain has matured).

So, what do we do with children? Will dying in childhood be considered a disability? I mean, a baby's body is pretty much useless, even if the mind inside manages to mature. I'm sure there will be a lot of persons desperate to adopt children, given that none can be born in second life (and that could inspire a couple of horror tales). But will they be ready to take care of a child until the dead of the Universe?

And the children who are already in hell won't help answer the question, as many will be to traumatized to have a healthy mind we can analyze. Also children are kind of weird in hell, given that they have been eaten by demons by a long time. An other political bomb waiting to explode. The math is obvious, given the rate of infant mortality before last century, there should be more children than adults. And when the missing children are not found in Heaven or in the First Circle, someone will wonder, where are they?

[Bayonet]

The Wright brothers would probably be tickled pink that it was taken as far as it was,

A f(r)iends father had met Orville, back during WW-II, at Wright Patterson AFB (whatever it was called then). The guy was still sharp and very interested, asking some perceptive questions about the aircraft he was flying. Unfortunately I don't have any more details, but I suspect the Brothers would be thrilled by where their work went. If their minds haven't been wrecked, of course.

[nightwyrm]

I wonder if I'm the only one here feeling sorry for Onniel here. I don't disagree she was being fairly bitchy near the end, and her attack on the maid is unforgivable, however Lemuel was also being a shit to her. Frankly I think their relationship says a lot more about how screwed up things are in heaven when it comes to marriage then it does about either person involved.

-- Brett

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling sorry for Onniel. For most of the story, she was just being the neglected housewife of an overworked husband caught in Michael's trap. And it wasn't as if it was completely her fault that Lemuel was distancing himself from her. Given that Lemuel was starting to get addicted to various substances without his knowledge, he literally cannot feel good at home.

Sure, beating up the maid was pretty bad but that hardly merits a death sentence and given heaven's general attitude towards humans, it may not be outside the societal norm for angels to beat their human servants.

I hope she doesn't just end up in a ditch somewhere later.

[Nematocyst]

What hapens to people who die and go to hell?? If they die of old age are they traped in a body that looks like it's 85 years old but still has superhuman strenght ????

Stuart already covered this, in Armageddon: second life bodies appear in middle age, at the oldest. So... call it forty or a very well preserved fifty, maybe.

This reminds me of the Elders singing praises to Yahweh. They must be OLD if they are that ancient there. Michael mentions they are 'old, even by the standards of the Angels'
Does this mean they might not be humans?

[GrayAnderson]

What hapens to people who die and go to hell?? If they die of old age are they traped in a body that looks like it's 85 years old but still has superhuman strenght ????

Stuart already covered this, in Armageddon: second life bodies appear in middle age, at the oldest. So... call it forty or a very well preserved fifty, maybe.

This reminds me of the Elders singing praises to Yahweh. They must be OLD if they are that ancient there. Michael mentions they are 'old, even by the standards of the Angels'
Does this mean they might not be humans?

Theoretically, yes, though my bet would be on "very primitive humans". We don't have any idea what a "normal" lifespan is; even if you don't have old-age-related death, you've got accidents and whatnot that would lead to at least some mortality.

[Edward Yee]

I hope she doesn't just end up in a ditch somewhere later.

The thing is, this story (or at least the tone of the story) makes such a fate "feel" realistic...

[spartasman]

Spartasman, his "teleforce weapon" didn't work. Couldn't work, even in theory. Math does not work that way.

IIRC, several of the laws of physics on Earth do not apply to Hell, and possibly heaven. I believe that this was the reason the Nama could launch lightning bolts with their own electricity but a replicated experiment on Earth could not achieve the same results. Electricity and alot of other things might have completely different properties and uses in Hell than in from Earth. So, Tesla might yet be able to create a giant teleforce gun.

[nightwyrm]

I hope she doesn't just end up in a ditch somewhere later.

The thing is, this story (or at least the tone of the story) makes such a fate "feel" realistic...

Yeah, I know. And considering Michael's attitude towards her and other disposable minions she'll probably be dead in a few chapters. Still feels bad for her though...

[Chad]

When we finally manage to find Lee Harvey Oswald, do you think we can finally settle the stupid rumors about JFK's assassination?

Unfortunately knowing conspiracy theorists, they will just say that Oswald was patsy that was "duped" into participating and thus has no knowledge of the "REAL" conspiracy in the first place. (Heck, a significant percentage of them believe precisely that now.)

[Gil Hamilton]

A f(r)iends father had met Orville, back during WW-II, at Wright Patterson AFB (whatever it was called then). The guy was still sharp and very interested, asking some perceptive questions about the aircraft he was flying. Unfortunately I don't have any more details, but I suspect the Brothers would be thrilled by where their work went. If their minds haven't been wrecked, of course.

The Wright Brothers and Alberto Dumont (with Henri Giffard as his partner) could have an argument over the validity of dirigibles, with Sir George Cayley and Leonardo da Vinci referring, most likely ending with the Wrights pointing to a Boeing 747 and saying "Look, we won!"

[Simon_Jester]

IIRC, several of the laws of physics on Earth do not apply to Hell, and possibly heaven. I believe that this was the reason the Nama could launch lightning bolts with their own electricity but a replicated experiment on Earth could not achieve the same results. Electricity and alot of other things might have completely different properties and uses in Hell than in from Earth. So, Tesla might yet be able to create a giant teleforce gun.

It would only work by blind luck, though.

It's generally very poor practice to design a machine without reference to whether the laws of the universe you live in will allow it to work, in hopes of eventually finding a universe where it will.

I wouldn't give him a dime to develop artificial electricity guns, even given that they'd almost certainly work in Hell. I'd give it to a modern electrical engineering firm with a better track record, and tell Tesla that while I have enormous admiration for his intellect, he really needs to get a degree or two under his belt and come back in a few years.

However, I would also wink and say "Guess what we named the unit of magnetic field strength?" Because I do admire his intellect, even if he went batshit crazy at the end.

[ANTIcarrot]

I wouldn't give him a dime to develop artificial electricity guns, even given that they'd almost certainly work in Hell.

I'd be willing to give him money, if he can explain how they're supposed to work. Given that we might have been able to build a fusion reactor in the 1930s, if we'd known how. This isn't just physics. It's also engineering. It's part of an engineers job to get around the rules of physics by using other rules of physics.

Physisist: Of course you can't build a rocket to the moon! It would be impractically large! The Rocket Equation says so!
Engineer: True. Unless we use a technique called 'staging' (or better, refueling!) in which case all these other equations come into play.


NB: Has the US Navy's polywell fusion project been discussed at all? I remember electrical power & fuel being a problem, but war-funding being somewhat unlimited. If stuart lets this technology works (no one really knows if it does at present) then it might solve a lot of background problems in terms of logistics.

[Simon_Jester]

ANTIcarrot, I am very skeptical when people talk about technological capabilities "more advanced" than what we have today in some sense that can be done feasibly using old technology. Unless someone can point to some damn good examples, I'm not inclined to buy it. Because while you can lose engineering expertise and thus lose the ability to build something that could once be built, you can't lose expertise in a field where no one ever developed any.

And because it's very easy to talk big about something no one really expects you to build. Like the Tesla death ray. So no, I would not give him money without a detailed description of how, exactly, his device works, with equations. Which he isn't going to be able to provide, because he never did learn the requisite material.

[Tamahori]

I hope she doesn't just end up in a ditch somewhere later.

The thing is, this story (or at least the tone of the story) makes such a fate "feel" realistic...

Yeah, I know. And considering Michael's attitude towards her and other disposable minions she'll probably be dead in a few chapters. Still feels bad for her though...

Given Michael's thoughts in the chapter we're talking about, I think she'll be dead in a ditch sometime before the next chapter. And this is one he doesn't even feel remotely bad about.

What Onniel and Lemuel needed was a marriage councillor, but that never would have worked given the way Heaven is set up in terms of relationships. Sadly, the attitudes we saw Onniel having to live under are entirely consistent with the source material being used.

Being a female angel in this story doesn't seem to be the best of things. Of the named ones we've had show up, we've got the the broken winged angel, the disposable tool, the B&D mistress, the 'break the cutie' expect, and the Whore of Babylon (who I can't say didn't deserve what happened to her).

On a side note, Duma (sp) may even recover from what happened to her, angelic healing is impressive after all ... however I doubt she'll have much of her old personality intact. Could be anything from a 'have to learn everything from the ground up again' though to 'functional, just a totally different person'. I'm sure Michael could find uses for either, if only as a puppet, though I expect if she survives, she'll end up being shot for war crimes when Humanity invades, assuming she isn't killed in the fighting. (I could see that being an interesting legal case though, aside from the rather exotic nature of her weapons, she didn't to anything that any other uniformed solder sent to level a civilian target hasn't done ... and I don't recall war-crimes charges over that happening in almost every war I can think of. Main thing you'd get her own is the bio-weapons use (the plague, not Fluffy))

If western attitudes towards feminism catch on in Heaven, I could see the resulting surge in marriages breaking up being a major threat to angelic reproduction in its own right. I doubt it would catch on anything like that quickly though, most of them have had a very very long time to get used to the current 'way things are' and won't change in a hurry, though when you mix into this the massive upset caused by even a comparatively peaceful overthrow of Heaven, let alone what could happen, then that may be a side issue anyway.

-- Brett, who will admit to being a sucker for a pretty girl with wings (though, baring the effects of the miasma, a succubus in this setting doesn't count as pretty)

[spartasman]

ANTIcarrot, I am very skeptical when people talk about technological capabilities "more advanced" than what we have today in some sense that can be done feasibly using old technology. Unless someone can point to some damn good examples, I'm not inclined to buy it. Because while you can lose engineering expertise and thus lose the ability to build something that could once be built, you can't lose expertise in a field where no one ever developed any.

And because it's very easy to talk big about something no one really expects you to build. Like the Tesla death ray. So no, I would not give him money without a detailed description of how, exactly, his device works, with equations. Which he isn't going to be able to provide, because he never did learn the requisite material.

The man that can devise a machine that allows him to do the following arguably does not NEED equations.


The field of science in Hell, and how it operates there would require the kind of reckless experimentation that Tesla and others exhibited during the hayday of the early 1900's.

[GrayAnderson]

If western attitudes towards feminism catch on in Heaven, I could see the resulting surge in marriages breaking up being a major threat to angelic reproduction in its own right. I doubt it would catch on anything like that quickly though, most of them have had a very very long time to get used to the current 'way things are' and won't change in a hurry, though when you mix into this the massive upset caused by even a comparatively peaceful overthrow of Heaven, let alone what could happen, then that may be a side issue anyway.

Of course by that basis you might well find some form of artificial fertilization brought into play. It isn't unreasonable that given the extremely low natural reproduction rates, some angels might desire children but be unable to come by them.

[nightwyrm]

If western attitudes towards feminism catch on in Heaven, I could see the resulting surge in marriages breaking up being a major threat to angelic reproduction in its own right. I doubt it would catch on anything like that quickly though, most of them have had a very very long time to get used to the current 'way things are' and won't change in a hurry, though when you mix into this the massive upset caused by even a comparatively peaceful overthrow of Heaven, let alone what could happen, then that may be a side issue anyway.

Of course by that basis you might well find some form of artificial fertilization brought into play. It isn't unreasonable that given the extremely low natural reproduction rates, some angels might desire children but be unable to come by them.

Carrying this thought a bit further, since natural angelic fertility is so low, it could be that humans with their reproductive technology is the only way the angels can carry on as a viable species after humans eventually bomb the shit out of them.

[Ilya Muromets]

The man that can devise a machine that allows him to do the following arguably does not NEED equations.
*snip image*

The field of science in Hell, and how it operates there would require the kind of reckless experimentation that Tesla and others exhibited during the hayday of the early 1900's.

Leave aside the fact that Stuart already said that this story would NOT be about "random well-know historical figure doing something AWESOME," no, that's not how it works.

Reckless experimentation? You mean the ones with no proper control of variables? No safety procedures? No proper recording of results and procedures? No proper peer review or monitoring? The kind of experimentation that often resulted in failure or had charlatans claiming results and pulling figures out their asses?

If anything, the exploration of Hell should be studied with all due scientific diligence and proper scientific procedure. You make it sound as if reckless experimentation is the only way to determine anything new when in real life such recklessness only blundered into a lucky discovery a relative few times compared to the multitude of times where they failed, often in ways that could hurt or kill people.

Plus, y'know, that kind of recklessness is wasteful. And humanity's resources are already stretched as far as they can go. NO ONE in human authority is going to waste money on a pipe dream just because it has the overblown reputation of Tesla attached to it. "Could work" in Hell, is less trustworthy that "all the data collated so far suggests that this is the best course of action." No one is going to fund something that was proven a pipe dream in our world made by some one who is not only behind in scientific knowledge by entire decades, especially someone with a known for making claims he couldn't back up.

Hell, even Einstein (vindicated by modern science on many counts) won't be working on any science team for years to come because his knowledge in physics is also outdated by decades. ANY big name scientific, engineering, or military figure from sufficiently far back that much of what they know is outdated will NOT be allowed anywhere near precious modern equipment until they've updated their knowledge. Period. And even when they catch up, they won't be taking charge. Even if they catch up, they're still new to modern knowledge and advances, so they'll be taking cues from modern experts in those fields for a long time to come. Not one of them will be taking charge or funded for a project for a long, long time.

[Simon_Jester]

The only possible exceptions are the ones who are good as managers, not just as scientists or engineers. Again, von Braun comes to mind. Though he's relatively recent, to the point where he doesn't have quite as much catching up to do as, say, Edison would.

[Stuart]

Leave aside the fact that Stuart already said that this story would NOT be about "random well-know historical figure doing something AWESOME," no, that's not how it works.

Reckless experimentation? You mean the ones with no proper control of variables? No safety procedures? No proper recording of results and procedures? No proper peer review or monitoring? The kind of experimentation that often resulted in failure or had charlatans claiming results and pulling figures out their asses? If anything, the exploration of Hell should be studied with all due scientific diligence and proper scientific procedure. You make it sound as if reckless experimentation is the only way to determine anything new when in real life such recklessness only blundered into a lucky discovery a relative few times compared to the multitude of times where they failed, often in ways that could hurt or kill people.

Plus, y'know, that kind of recklessness is wasteful. And humanity's resources are already stretched as far as they can go. NO ONE in human authority is going to waste money on a pipe dream just because it has the overblown reputation of Tesla attached to it. "Could work" in Hell, is less trustworthy that "all the data collated so far suggests that this is the best course of action." No one is going to fund something that was proven a pipe dream in our world made by some one who is not only behind in scientific knowledge by entire decades, especially someone with a known for making claims he couldn't back up.

Hell, even Einstein (vindicated by modern science on many counts) won't be working on any science team for years to come because his knowledge in physics is also outdated by decades. ANY big name scientific, engineering, or military figure from sufficiently far back that much of what they know is outdated will NOT be allowed anywhere near precious modern equipment until they've updated their knowledge. Period. And even when they catch up, they won't be taking charge. Even if they catch up, they're still new to modern knowledge and advances, so they'll be taking cues from modern experts in those fields for a long time to come. Not one of them will be taking charge or funded for a project for a long, long time.

Well said Ilya. That's exactly the point summarized perfectly. The whole Tesla business is a good example of why I don't want the "dead figure from the past doing something awesome" meme to become established. The Tesloids will scream with anger at the idea, but Tesla was actually a nutcase who happened to get lucky a few times but if the Tesloids have their way, he'll turn up in hell and start producing wondrous, awe-inspiring inventions that will reduce the whole setting of these stories to a ridiculous farce.

Wild, random "experimentation" (ie taking reckless stabs in the dark) is no way to get anything done. One of the themes of TSW is that the scientific method at its best, painstaking, careful, transparent and methodical, is not just the best way to get things done, it's the only efficient way to get things done. Nothing else achieves anything like comparable results. It's not a coincidence that the birth of the scientific method and the collapse of its alternatives marks the beginning of the ascendancy of humans over the opposition.

"Reckless experimentation" is the last thing humanity needs. What it actually needs (and is doing because that is the way we do things these days) is a rigorous application of the scientific method to the emerging environment of Hell and actually understanding what goes on there. Just because it differs from Earth in some respects doesn't mean that the methods of thought and investigation that work down here will not work up there. The physical laws in Hell and heaven can't be that different from those in our universe otherwise we would not be able to interact with them and vice versa. The amount of divergence possible before interaction becomes impossible is not that great. Hence the situation where the laws of physics still apply but the ones here and the ones in Hell are both local cases of a greater rule that applies generally. W e get a lot further by investigating that concept than we would by flailing around building "things" at random that have virtually no possibility of working.

By the way, the interaction business is a nasty problem for the fundie fraternity. If one takes the statements in their mythology at face value (ie angels that would take somebody 500 years to walk from their toe to their chin (ie 17.5 million miles tall)) such creatures would require physical laws so different from ours that they could not exist in our universe. So, there is a choice, either they can stick with their descriptions in which case interaction is impossible and they might as well not exist or they assume that the creatures in question more or less comply with our laws of physics in which case the miracles and powers attributable to them cannot exist and they ain't gods no more. In TSW we gave the Daemons and Anegls just about every power we could justify under our laws of physics and bent those laws very badly in order to try and give them a fighting chance. In short, where "powers" are concerned, the angels and daemons in TSW are just about at the outer edge of the limit possible for interaction with us. So the fundies have a choice, they can either accept that tehir stories are true and that means no interaction and gods that essentially do not exist or TSW is a reasonable depiction of such powers and we can shoot the crap out of them. Nasty choice for them isn't it?

That's an aside though. The real problem is that Tesla and his concepts are a liability and a blind alley. Just taking wild stabs into the unknown using them won't get us anywhere.

[Darth Wong]

The man that can devise a machine that allows him to do the following arguably does not NEED equations.

Spoken like someone who has never taken a real science course in his life. It was, in fact, the men with equations and method who were able to determine which of Tesla's ideas were potentially useful, and which were just useless fiddling.

[Stuart]

Headquarters, League of Holy Court, Eternal City, Heaven

"Ephom-Lan-Sezotah. You were in charge of the party charged with the rescue of Lady Maion-Lan-Lemuel?"

"I was, Mighty General. Until, as I told you, the servants of The One Above All took her from us."

"Do not be impertinent Ephom. If I require you to repeat a story for a thousand millennia, that is what you will do. Who led the servants of The Most High?"

"He did not give his name, but I believe it was Abszin-Lan-Azrael." Ephom-Lan spoke the desired sentence with just the right degree of reluctance."

"Azrael?" Lemuel-Lan gasped the name in shock. "But we know Azrael-Lan was behind the terrorist groups responsible for the bombings. Does his treachery reach so high?"

"That, we shall find out." Michael-Lan's voice was grim and foreboding. "Find Abszin-Lan-Azrael without delay and bring him here. And find out where Azrael-Lan is." You won't. I've got his badly-injured body tucked away in my private estate a long way from here.

Lemuel watched as Michael-Lan started pacing impatiently around the main room in the League of Holy Court temple. He wished that he could do the same, but the weight of misery and fear for Maion's safety that weighed down upon him seemed to crush any effort he might make. Instead, he just sat there, watching the bright white light of Heaven and trying to pray for Maion's safety. Suddenly, he realized the sheer futility of what he was doing. Maion had been taken on Yahweh's orders, she was being held somewhere at his command. Prayers would do nothing to save her, it was Michael with his strange team of angels and humans who were his only chance of seeing her again. With anguish in his heart, Lemuel realized that he desperately wanted to be with her again.

His descending spiral of misery and despair was interrupted by the doors banging open as Ephom-Lan-Sezotah returned with Abszin-Lan-Azrael. He leapt to his feet, the cry of "Where is she?" echoing around the temple.

"Quiet Lemuel." Michael-Lan's voice was calm and controlled. "Abszin was just obeying orders from his master as was his duty. Abszin-Lan-Azrael, what happened after you took the Lady Maion-Lan-Lemuel from the temple after we freed her from her captors?"

Abszin-Lan took a deep breath, ostensibly to steady himself, actually to make sure that the story he had been given by Michael-Lan was properly presented. "We took her to the Ultimate Temple Mighty General. There, we were met by other guards who were charged with taking her to the place of her imprisonment. They left to the east and returned within an hour."

"Why was she taken? Were you told this?"

"The other guards said that she was charged with treason and associating with those committing treason against The One Above All and His most trusted followers."

"Very well Abszin-Lan-Azrael, you may go now." Michael waited until Abszin had left then turned to Lemuel. "There you are old friend, your beloved is quite safe. Half an hour to the east suggests that she is in the detention camp set up by The Great Father Of Us All for those who were conspiring against him. I think this is just an error, that nobody realized there would be innocent prisoners at the headquarters of the terrorist group. Maion is in the Ever-Merciful Hands of Our Father, all we need to do is go there, explain the situation and she will be released, I am sure."

Lemuel was both doubtful and relieved. "Then why was Onniel there to condemn her? No, Michael-Lan, there is more to this than you think. Have you ever been to this detention camp?"

"No, there is no reason why I should. It is He Who Must Be Obeyed's own project. Since Hell is no longer available as a destination for those who conspire against him, He had to find another solution. But, I know roughly where it is. We should not take too long to get there. Come, old friend, we are nearly at the end of the quest."

Belial's Concentration Camp, Heaven.

"What horror is this?" Lemuel was aghast at the sights below him. There was a giant rectangular encampment, surrounded by what appeared to be gray stone walls on which angelic guards were patrolling. Inside were angels, obviously the prisoners of this truly Hellish creation, dragging themselves around. The inside of the camp had been churned into thick mud that had spread to smear and stain everything in its path. Worse than the sights was the dreadful stench that rose into the air, it was obvious that there were no sanitary facilities within the compound and the angelic waste had blended into the mud to form a dreadful ooze. Even that failed in sheer awfulness to overcome the sounds of despairing wails and moans from the prisoners within.

"I do not know." Even Michael-Lan was genuinely shocked by the camp below. He hadn't realized how thoroughly Belial would create a fair imitation of the Hellpit here. Still, all for the best. This is the one critical part of the scheme and the worse this place is, the better. "I had no idea that Yah-Yah would create something like this." He stole a sideways glance at Lemuel but the deliberate blasphemy had been ignored, overwhelmed by disgust at the sight beneath.

"Why do the prisoners not just fly over the wall?" Lemuel was having difficulty speaking so great was his shock at the sights below.

"I do not know that either." Michael looked down and picked out the main entrance. "Lemuel, I do not know what is going on here or who is responsible for this. Just follow my lead, is that clear? I'm going to bluff our way in."

He backwinged suddenly and landed in front of an entrance flanked by two buildings. As he walked towards them, two angels, Hashmallim by the look of them, hurried out to stop them.

"You can't come in here."

"Can't?" There was a menacing level of surprise in Michael's voice. "Do you know who I am?"

"Yes, and it doesn’t matter. Nobody is allowed in here without permission from Belial or The One Above All." The hashmallim smirked at the thought that he was giving the Mighty General Michael-Lan the run-around.

Michael just stared at him and his hand moved to grasp the angel. The hashmallim was suddenly pinned against the stone wall and was choking. "I find your lack of respect . . . . disturbing." Michael's voice was still calm and dead level. I've been wanting to say that for years.

He held the grip until the Hashmallim collapsed to the ground. Then, he turned to the other angel. "Any questions?"

The Seraphim gulped and shook his head. "Good, then open that damned gate! We are looking for the Lady Maion. Where is she?"

The Seraphim shuddered at the venom behind the question. "She is a new arrival. She will be in Section Six. The guards will be breaking her in there."

Michael simply glared at the hapless Seraphim. "I will remember you." Then he stalked through the opening gate, Lemuel following close behind.

The sight inside was far worse than anything they could have gathered from the air. The stinking mud that coated the inside of the compound rose high around their feet and stung even this peerless skin. In front of them, the prisoners were moaning with anguish as they tried to move in the all-encompassing filth. Lemuel only needed one glance to understand why none had attempted to fly out of the camp, at some point, they had had their wings methodically and comprehensively broken. From the look of some, the broken bones had started to heal and had then been broken again. After repeated breaks, the wings were healing deformed and he doubted if they would allow the angels to fly again. That was assuming they got out of this place.

"Has Yahweh gone completely mad?" Lemuel's voice was numb with shock. "How could he allow this?"

"You heard him. 'All the pains of Hell', he said. We all thought he was being his usual bombastic self. We never guessed he meant it. And did you hear who is in charge here? Belial, a refugee from Hell itself I guess. Yahweh wanted to recreate Hell, and he brought in a surviving daemon lord to do it for him. We'd better find Maion fast."

Michael set off at a determined pace, looking for Section Six. Around them, the crippled angels were trying to beg for help and food. To his mounting anguish, Lemuel realized that they weren't just crippled, they were far more than half-starved as well. Fortunately, on a number of levels. Section Six was quickly located. It was barely distinguishable from the others only, to Lemuel's eyes, the prisoners hadn't been starved yet and they were in marginally better condition. Beside him, Michael was quickly scanning through the figures that surrounded them. Finally, he saw the one he was looking for.

"Maion. She's over there. Hurry up old friend, we haven't got much time." He strode off, ignoring the mud and filth that was splashing over him.

"Don’t hurt me any more. Please . . . ." Maion's voice was a pathetic whimper. To Lemuel's horrified gaze, she was bloodstained and battered, her wings savagely broken and trailing in the filth that surrounded her.

"Maion, it's us. We've come to get you out of here." Michael's voice was comforting and consoling as he knelt beside her.

"Michael? You came? I was praying for . . . "

"Maion, did I not tell you that you are one of my people now. That if you got into trouble I would come and get you? You are one of us, Maion-Lan-Lemuel-Lan-Michael, one of my people and that means if they you help, it is for me to succor you. Leaders serve their followers Maion, just as much as followers serve their leaders. And Lemuel wouldn't leave me alone until we found you and came to your aid."

The words spoken by Michael cut through Lemuel's stunned consciousness. He had heard them before, from Charmeine-Lan. "Michael, you. You are the leader of the Montmartre Club."

"I am, Lemuel, and I have been trying to protect people who were at risk from Yah-Yah's growing insanity. I have been trying to save as many humans as I could from the Hellpit and give them some sort of life in Heaven. Now, I see I have failed." Michael theatrically sagged and started to weep.

Beside him, Lemuel put his arms around Maion and tried to comfort her. Instead, she screamed in renewed agony as his movements caused the jagged ends of bone in her broken wings to grate against each other. The sound clouded his mind with sheer fury. "Michael, what do we do?"

Michael gave every appearance of recovering from his breakdown and he drew himself up. "We must first get Maion out of here. That was and is our first priority. She's been very seriously hurt, her wings look so badly broken that I doubt if she will fly again unless she gets some very special care."

Maion was struggling to speak but the pain form her injuries kept breaking through. "Michael-Lan, you came just in time. One of the guards here said that Onniel had ordered my legs be broken as well. Please, help me."

"What do we do?" Lemuel was weeping uncontrollably.

"We can do nothing here. There are only one group of people who can treat injuries this severe and still allow the victim to make a full recovery."

"Humans?"

"That is right, humans. Lemuel, you must get Maion to the humans. They can cure her wounds and restore her body. We can create a portal to earth from here and you can take Maion through it." Michael turned his attention to Maion and his voice softened. "Maion, you are going to Earth for treatment. It will hurt as you go through the portal but you'll be out of here at least. Just be brave for a few minutes longer."

"What are you going to do Michael?" Lemuel had thought the situation through and saw that Michael-Lan was right. Maion's only chance lay on Earth.

"I will go to the Eternal City and confront Yah-yah. I cannot believe that he knows what goes on here. He has been mislead by bad advisors and tricked by Belial. Once he knows what is happening here, he will make things right. You, on your part, tell the humans of this. Beg for their aid in treating these wounded. Humans are very strange, they will kill without mercy yet present them with a scene like this and they will go to unimaginable lengths to aid the sick and wounded. Bring the humans here and try to save these people."

"Michael-Lan, it won’t work. The All-Seeing must know what goes on here." Suddenly all the pieces that Michael-Lan had so painstakingly crafted fitted together in Lemuel's head. "Michael-Lan, he doesn’t just know, he planned this. He knew there were those who opposed him so he used us to catch them. He used Azreal to cerate the terrorist movement so he would have an excuse for this. Michael, remember I asked if Azrael's treason went so high? Well, it didn’t, it started so high there is nowhere higher. Yahweh was behind the bombings, I am sure of it and he did it all to justify creating this place to punish those who were questioned him."

"I greatly fear you might be right." Michael-Lan put exactly the right amount of doubt and anguish into his voice. Well done Lemuel, you put it all together. Now, lets see if you can make the obvious final jump. His face settled into an expression that combined grandeur, nobility and offended honor. Michael was quite proud of the expression, it was one he practiced in front of a mirror often. "What should I do?"

Lemuel summoned up his strength and, as he looked down at Maion moaning in the mud, his mind was made up. "Michael-Lan, Yahweh knew all of this and knew it well. He is no longer fit to reign in Heaven. You, you Michael, must depose him and take over the throne. Then, you must make peace with the humans somehow. I do not know how you can do this or when you will achieve it but it is your duty to the whole of the Angelic Host to make sure that what we see around us now will never happen again."

"Lemuel, my old friend, I ought to strike you down for the words you have just said. But while my head tells me to do that, my heart says that you are right. Bring the humans, bring their armies for without them we cannot depose Yahweh. I will do what I can Lemuel, I will oppose Yahweh, I will try and prevent this atrocity from happening again. Yes, my old friend, I will attempt to remove him from power. Your words convince me of the need for this and for that I thank you." The poets were right, the power of love will achieve wonders. When used and steered properly of course. Michael gazed at Maion on the ground. "But first, we must see to your beloved. Be brave Maion, soon you will be on Earth and your wounds will be cured."

Michael and Lemuel reached down and lifted Maion, trying to disturb her shattered wings as little as possible. Once she was lifted, the two combined their power and pushed through a portal to Earth. Then, Lemuel took a firm grip on Maion and took her through the black ellipse.

Behind them, Michael-Lan watched the ellipse close behind them. Well, we are truly into the end-game now. He thought. The humans won’t just send aid although they surely will send that. They will send their armies as well and the first thing they see will be this nightmare. They'll see the angelic host as the victims here just as the dead suffering in Hell were the victims there. And that will preserve the host for they will forgive us.

Michael-Lan started to move away, to return to the Eternal City where the next stage of the complex scheme would take place. As he did, he saw the hellish conditions in the camp around him and one last thought popped into his mind. I wonder if I'll ever forgive me.