Moderator: LadyTevar
Actually, the "longest suicide note in electoral history" crack was made by Labour Party MP Gerald Kaufman.Zaune wrote: And that crack about the '83 Manifesto is the closest thing to a hint of who you voted for that I've seen in anything related to the Salvation War series, which is damn tricky to pull off in this genre.
Well, what I think would be good would be to not foreshadow "Elhmas didn't die," but to establish Ehlmas as less of a complete idiot. I haven't seen the film, but I imagine that the scene in Qien Sabe worked because the Mexican revolutionary was built up over the film- he's not a bit player. Thus, the viewer has time to build up a sense of who the Mexican man is. The surprise ending thus has overtones of "Wow, when did he grow a pair? He's smarter than we thought."Stuart wrote:I didn't want to foreshadow what was going to happen because that way, the reader feels the sheer shock that Michael felt when a character he had presumed to be dead suddenly appeared. There were a couple of hints that Elhmas was alive; the vagueness of the accounts of his death (which should have tipped Michael off, that was his big mistake) and the near-response to Yahweh's attempt to draw on Elhmas during the battle. That was all that Michael had to go on and so that was all I gave the reader. Other than that, I wanted Elhmas's appearance to be a shock. The model is in the end of some films (for example Rush Hour 3 and a lot of westerns) where the Big Bad has apparently won and is about to whack the hero when there's a shot and the Big bad is brought down by an apparently minor character.
Yes. I suppose if you're planning to set up Ehlmas as a primary character in Lords of War, the parallel structure might work to your advantage. I don't know.Also, I did much the same thing with Armageddon. Michael appears there in a few places, coming over as just another member of Yahweh's court, as deluded and seduced as the rest. Only in his last appearance do we see the situation through his eyes and realize that he is actually plotting against Yahweh and holds Yahweh in utter contempt. That's the first indication as to how devious he is.
I've actually thought that was what most of the other, smaller nations did. You know, the lower priority ones which wouldn't get any re-chambered guns in any significant number (if at all) for a long time. A country like the Philippines, for example, if faced with a need for guns with bigger rounds than the 5.56mm NATO would likely just pull out the old stores of M1 Garand and M14 rifles since there's plenty of those left over, and most are kept in working order. Hell, a lot of those are in service with the CAFGU auxiliary militias. There's even a few functional Browning Automatic Rifles in reserve stocks IIRC.Zaune wrote:Point taken, though a weapon on the ineffectual end of marginal that's available immediately beats a truly effective weapon that won't become available in useful quantities for a number of weeks, and I'm sure most of the world's armies have at least some old 7.62mm rifles knocking around in the stores. It's a pity they didn't think of producing 5.56mm hollowpoints either, because those might have made an equally good interim measure without issuing new weapons or rendering the old ammo completely worthless.
Meh. I like the existing level of hints, myself; I still got most of the way there before the plot, although the wait between the nuke and now had me double-guessing myself a bit (which is all to the good).Simon_Jester wrote:Well, what I think would be good would be to not foreshadow "Elhmas didn't die," but to establish Ehlmas as less of a complete idiot. I haven't seen the film, but I imagine that the scene in Qien Sabe worked because the Mexican revolutionary was built up over the film- he's not a bit player. Thus, the viewer has time to build up a sense of who the Mexican man is. The surprise ending thus has overtones of "Wow, when did he grow a pair? He's smarter than we thought."
But just in terms of screen time, Ehlmas is a bit player in the action of Pantheocide. So your "lesser character comes out of left field and overwhelms someone we normally think of as greater" isn't adequately set up; it's less of a "Wow, when did he grow a pair?" moment and more of a deus ex machina. I'd suggest one or two more scenes where Ehlmas appears and we get Michael's view of him as a mediocre stoner- just to give him some time on screen so he's not a mystery. Then the one you already have that shows Ehlmas as being considerably more competent and intelligent than Michael gives him credit for.
Then everything up to and after the nuke proceeds just as planned- subtle hints that Ehlmas might still be alive, but nothing credible, and nothing that would tip Michael off.
Well, if I were him I'd have purchased a beach-house on a remote tropical island and stocked it with a year's supply of junk food, lager and weed for the express purpose of laying low until the dust settled.GrayAnderson wrote:Yeah...to echo the "What's he going to do now" question, what does he plan to do? I don't imagine he's going to be showing himself to the humans too quickly, but he also doesn't seem to have anywhere to go.
After his presumed death in the nuclear attack, everything was good. That was well done.thegreatpl wrote:I think that the return of Ehlmas was perfectly spot on. There was, if i remember correctly from what i skimmed from reading the thread at the time, plenty of speculation at the time that he was alive and had had some flunky stand in for him. A debate i think sprang up as to whether or not he was alive, before it got distracted by the next chapter.
Joan of Arc is a decent possibility, since she more or less kicked off nationalism, the greatest divider of humanity over the last half millennium. And scientifically we still can't figure out how she was nuts enough to genuinely hear voices, yet not crazy enough to dull her mind and get her rejected as soon as she met Charles. She was a good tactician and an excellent leader in the field, and we have solid historical evidence from her trial of her sound mind and fervent belief in her voices. Possession is just as good as a psychologists shoulder shrug for me.wickeddyno wrote:Oh, and my guesses for Ehlmas's failures on earth are Jesus, Mohammed, and Joan of Arc.
So Ehlmas was a pretty good military commander (at least for pre-gunpowder and medieval armies), if Muhammed and Joan de Arc are any indicators. Though that sort of does jive with Paradise Lost.wickeddyno wrote:Oh, and my guesses for Ehlmas's failures on earth are Jesus, Mohammed, and Joan of Arc.
I'd have gone with Jesus, Emperor Constantine, and Mohammed.wickeddyno wrote:Oh, and my guesses for Ehlmas's failures on earth are Jesus, Mohammed, and Joan of Arc.
I'm assuming this is the last chapter in this volume, so it makes a perfect end cap.thegreatpl wrote:I think that the return of Ehlmas was perfectly spot on. There was, if i remember correctly from what i skimmed from reading the thread at the time, plenty of speculation at the time that he was alive and had had some flunky stand in for him. A debate i think sprang up as to whether or not he was alive, before it got distracted by the next chapter.
And i think you left it just long enough for it to have fallen out of mind, and then blam, he is really alive after all.
Hmmmm, i hope in the next book we see some sort of political chess between the Mason, Ehlmas and Michael as each vie (or not in Ehlmas's case, more like trying to limit the fallout) for power in the new angelic society.
The whole point of tactical nuclear weapons ...Brovane wrote:I have a hard time seeing this. The US still had a large military force in the field. If you look at the order of battle. You have the 25th Mechanized Infantry Division, 10th Mountain Division, 15th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, 1st Armored Division, British Brigade and a Iranian Composite Division with over 300+ tanks. In reserve the humans have the 2-brigades of the 4th Infantry Division and the 82nd Airborne. The 1st Armored Division alone is a incredibly destructive force and had maneuvered to cut off the Baldrick army from the Hell mouth. Even if they would have taken out the forces in Battle of Hit, just part of the human army. They would have emerged with a badly mauled force. Also they are a Leg infantry force. The 82nd Airborne, as the theater reserve could have been moved up to slow down any advance. As the Baldricks are not getting any reinforcements, and they have already taken massive casualties, while human reinforcements are starting to pour into the battle area. Remember the Russians where sending large forces also down into Iraqi. The 1st Armored Division had literally run over the Baldricks with there tanks, the British and Iranians had destroyed the forces facing them. So basically the flanks on both sides of the Baldrick's had collapsed which left these forces free to maneuver against the center. It would have been messy, especially for the 10th Mountain and the Marines if the battle of Hit would have been lost by the humans however it wouldn't have altered the course of the war. At the end of the day the Baldricks don't have the speed to envelop human forces, Let alone a US armored Division. Remember these lines from story?CaptainChewbacca wrote:And at that point they would have been able to envelop and destroy the single largest military force on earth, and the only thing between the hellmouth and civilization. They would'nt have gone global, but they would have taken a chunk out of the mideast and Lucifer might have been bold enough to drop a second force somewhere else.
Now if Satan would have organized all of his forces in the beginning and sent say 666 Legions through then things could have turned out differently. The front could easily have collapsed just from shear numbers and the human forces start running out ammunition. However he sent out 66 legions because he had no intelligence on what he was facing and couldn't conceve that humans could defeat even 66 legions. This gave the humans time to bring up more forces and ammunition.It was far worse even than that. The baldricks were moving slowly, as a professional, Petraeus recognized them for what they were, an infantry army that moved like one. Slowly, ponderously. They had their cavalry out as screens of course but it was a myth that cavalry forces could move much faster than leg infantry, they could in a tactical sense but the difference strategically was marginal at best. The harpies had been more of a worry, there had been an effort to use them as an advance guard but they’d been shot out of the sky by the F-16s based at Kirkuk and Incirlik. The small detachments, usually three at a time hadn’t stood a chance against the fast jets and after a while, their commander had stopped sending them out.
In contrast, the Allied forces were mobile almost to the point of insanity. They could slash at an enemy formation, disengage, regroup and slash again while their enemy was still wondering what to do about the first attack.
In this universe? It's practically a certainty that Joan of Arc really was a possessed nephilim. And probably by angels and not demons, unless for some bizarre reason a demon decided to torture someone by giving them the power to win battles. However, there's no reason to assume that it was Ehlmas doing it; it might have been any of a number of other angels doing it sort of as a hobby, just as lowly random demons would torment nephilim before the war put a stop to it.westrim wrote:Joan of Arc is a decent possibility, since she more or less kicked off nationalism, the greatest divider of humanity over the last half millennium. And scientifically we still can't figure out how she was nuts enough to genuinely hear voices, yet not crazy enough to dull her mind and get her rejected as soon as she met Charles. She was a good tactician and an excellent leader in the field, and we have solid historical evidence from her trial of her sound mind and fervent belief in her voices. Possession is just as good as a psychologists shoulder shrug for me.wickeddyno wrote:Oh, and my guesses for Ehlmas's failures on earth are Jesus, Mohammed, and Joan of Arc.
Gogyra wrote:Quick size question: is Ehlmas Yahweh/Uriel-sized, or Michael-sized?
