Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[KlavoHunter]

If Heaven has stationed a bunch of angels around the portal on the other side, primed to blast intruders with lightning or whatever weapons they have, it would be pretty hard to get anything through. So if they barricade it up and we blow up the barricade, it would still be a huge bitch to get anything through there.

Just as easily as we could throw barricade-clearing bombs through the portal, we could just as easily dump more appropriately anti-personnel weapons through to make an area wide enough that they wouldn't want to be close enough to use... well, whatever ranged weapons Angels use.

And there are man-sized, tracked drones, as well, that get used for EOD use. We could send some of those in to get the lay of the land before a single man walks through the portal. Or even have 'em take a few potshots at the angels on the other side.


Still, your point about that we need the capacity to open other portals is a valid one - there's no way we're going to be able to launch an effective war through a single man-sized portal.

[Chris OFarrell]

Hang on, didn't research into closing the portals suggest that nuking a permanent portal would in fact increase its size as the energy is translated into the conduit between dimensions?

[KlavoHunter]

Hang on, didn't research into closing the portals suggest that nuking a permanent portal would in fact increase its size as the energy is translated into the conduit between dimensions?

[Sea Skimmer]

How can you tell it where to go? You have no idea what's on the other side, and no maps.

The guidance of those missiles and most large guided weapons is inertial; they use things like TERCOM or GPS to improve accuracy and allow terrain following, but it isn’t necessary to make it fly through the air on a set general course, initiating the warhead at a set distance. We aren’t going to send through a nuke with some idea of what the other side looks like anyway, you need reconnaissance information to justify setting one off. This could be accomplished with a whole ton of different small UAVs in current US service. Predator is big, but Predator was also designed for the Air Force, the Army and Marines have several small, outright man portables designs in service.

I did think of setting off explosives just on the other side of the portal, but doesn't that risk closing the portal?

I’m pretty sure it risks making it bigger if anything, which can only be to the advantage of humanity.

Part of the problem with opening portals in Heaven is the fact that we seem to need contacts on the other side in order to do this, and nobody's been allowed into Heaven for a thousand years. Worse yet, everyone on the other side is ideologically pure, unlike Hell where the denizens are not there by choice.

Hopefully, Hell's naga can help in this regard.

If I’m reading things right we need to know who a person is to find them, and they can then use them as a link to open a portal, cooperation is not required. That means we can break open the books and look up the histories of highly religious people who actually might have led ‘pure’ lives that would have gotten them sent to heaven a thousand years ago. If we can find even one that could work, we can make a portal to heaven. Lots of Ifs, but we can throw a lot of manpower at the analysis job.

[Darth Wong]

Point conceded; I had forgotten how that was described earlier in the story. If detonations on the other side of the portal would only make it bigger if they have any effect at all, then there's very little reason not to simply blast it wide open (or at least clear the area on the other side) with explosives.

Mind you, this begs the question: why is that portal permament? Don't portals have to be quite large to be permanent?

[Starglider]

Mind you, this begs the question: why is that portal permament? Don't portals have to be quite large to be permanent?

AFAIK hell-to-earth portals are permanent by default. Stuart gave an explanation of this quite early on, the metaphor was of an energy stream 'holding the door open'. By constrast, earth-to-hell portals have to fight an energy stream which is trying to 'force the door closed'. Presumably that's a crude analogy for some kind of complicated hyperdimensional physics, but it's noteworthy that the demons were worried that the Iraq hellgate was 'too big to close' - implying that they do normally have to explicitly close portals.

The properties of the hell-heaven portal are unknown, given that it is a portal between two dimensions on the same 'level'.

[Peptuck]

Mind you, this begs the question: why is that portal permament? Don't portals have to be quite large to be permanent?

AFAIK hell-to-earth portals are permanent by default. Stuart gave an explanation of this quite early on, the metaphor was of an energy stream 'holding the door open'. By constrast, earth-to-hell portals have to fight an energy stream which is trying to 'force the door closed'. Presumably that's a crude analogy for some kind of complicated hyperdimensional physics, but it's noteworthy that the demons were worried that the Iraq hellgate was 'too big to close' - implying that they do normally have to explicitly close portals.

They also create temporary portals from Hell to Earth when launching individual baldrick raids or sending spotters for volcano drops. Probably the little portals don't take much effort to create and collapse on their own.

[Junghalli]

I really doubt the Angels are going to leave the portal open if the area is overrun by human forces. It'd be really stupid not to close the only access point into Heaven when they can always create new ones and we can't.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I really doubt the Angels are going to leave the portal open if the area is overrun by human forces. It'd be really stupid not to close the only access point into Heaven when they can always create new ones and we can't.

They won't know if it's overrun, as they won't go through without orders. We can just chuck a nuke through to widen it, and annihilate all opposition in the area, and then send combat forces in NBC gear through. This would certainly guarantee that nobody on the far side of the portal could possibly prevent it from closing in time, and even conventional weapons might well suffice for that.

[Shroom Man 777]

Soviet Katyusha barrages through Heaven's Gate! Fire FOABs!

EDIT:

As Sky Volcano has been coined, the portal to Heaven must be called Heaven's Gate as well!

[Darth Wong]

I really doubt the Angels are going to leave the portal open if the area is overrun by human forces. It'd be really stupid not to close the only access point into Heaven when they can always create new ones and we can't.

They won't know if it's overrun, as they won't go through without orders. We can just chuck a nuke through to widen it, and annihilate all opposition in the area, and then send combat forces in NBC gear through. This would certainly guarantee that nobody on the far side of the portal could possibly prevent it from closing in time, and even conventional weapons might well suffice for that.

Actually, it looks to me like Yahweh is observing the situation. A lot depends on just how smart the guy is. It may be that he's so arrogant that he doesn't comprehend the threat.

[Darmalus]

I really doubt the Angels are going to leave the portal open if the area is overrun by human forces. It'd be really stupid not to close the only access point into Heaven when they can always create new ones and we can't.

They won't know if it's overrun, as they won't go through without orders. We can just chuck a nuke through to widen it, and annihilate all opposition in the area, and then send combat forces in NBC gear through. This would certainly guarantee that nobody on the far side of the portal could possibly prevent it from closing in time, and even conventional weapons might well suffice for that.

Actually, it looks to me like Yahweh is observing the situation. A lot depends on just how smart the guy is. It may be that he's so arrogant that he doesn't comprehend the threat.

If Yahweh sticks to the basic formula that the demons have come up with, which seems to be "Humans are dangerous! Throw everything at once to overwhelm them!" tactical thinking, with only the occasional glimmer of strategic thinking like Belial, then my guess is his opening move will be to try and take out someplace that looks like a major military nexus point, or maybe several at once, drive up the kill count but ultimately fail for lack of long term planning or comprehension that human military strength is growing while the military strength of heaven and hell are apparently static.

Edit: Come to think of it, Yahweh strikes me as the type to be an even more thought-police type than Satan, so he may be even worse off when it comes to strategic ideas.

[Darth Wong]

It may be that Yahweh is so insular that he doesn't even have any idea what's going on, other than the fact that the humans are fighting the demons. His generals might be the real brains of the operation, and giving him very simplified, filtered information. If he is the type to kill his generals for displeasing him, they have no choice but to do so.

[Darth Ruinus]

If he is the type to kill his generals for displeasing him, they have no choice but to do so.

Yahweh's the type of guy who has a chorus singing endless praise to him for eternity, I would doubt that he is the type of guy to kill people for displeasing him

I wondering something though, when people die and go to Hell, they are in a new body. How does this happen? Does the new body magically appear? I mean, the body has to come from somewhere, and AFAIK, there is not real mention of how the people get there, just that they appear. So, is there a limit to how many people can appear at a time? Is there a limit to how many people can appear i.e. can Hell run out of replacement bodies or mass to make those replacement bodies?

Secondly, if we get scientists to attempt to observe this "I died and appeared in Hell in a new body" thing, can they duplicate it? Say, make a human body, or simple pigs or chickens? Can we use this effect to make guns, bombs etc?

Essentially, can we use the same mechanism that Hell uses to make new bodies and apply it to our own needs?

[DarthShady]

I wondering something though, when people die and go to Hell, they are in a new body. How does this happen? Does the new body magically appear? I mean, the body has to come from somewhere, and AFAIK, there is not real mention of how the people get there, just that they appear. So, is there a limit to how many people can appear at a time? Is there a limit to how many people can appear i.e. can Hell run out of replacement bodies or mass to make those replacement bodies?

The new body does not magically appear. It is formed from the 'soul' energy that human beings collect during life. The Baldricks and Angels use that same energy to propel themselves to their afterlife(higher dimension). So one human dies on earth and one human appears in hell.

[Darth Ruinus]

The new body does not magically appear. It is formed from the 'soul' energy that human beings collect during life.

That sounds like magic to me

Still, I think the question still stands, how is the body formed? Now, thanks to you, I know its made from the "soul" energy, but how does this happen? Is it an energy converted to matter? Is this soul energy the soul itself or um, how do I put this? Accumulated energy from emotions and experience?

The Baldricks and Angels use that same energy to propel themselves to their afterlife(higher dimension). So one human dies on earth and one human appears in hell.

Yes, one human dies and he is remade in hell, but what I am wondering is just where the materials for their new body comes from.

[Darth Wong]

This question about mass/energy is a tricky one. There has to be some explanation for why a person would die here and a copy of him appear in Hell, with no apparent violation of conservation of energy on our end. Not only that, but if this copy is brought back to Earth, it has mass and substance, electromagnetic interactions with its environment, etc. So the copy is no illusion; it has mass.

The "life energy" explanation is probably a misuse of the word "energy", at least from a strict physics perspective. No doubt the good Dr. Kuroneko in the story would love to investigate this mystery once he gets past the more pressing issues revolving around portal creation and destruction.

No one ever observed a body appearing in Hell, so we don't know if they just materialize out of thin air or drag themselves out of the muck. It may be that pre-existing material simply gets reconfigured into human bodies when the "soul" (for lack of a better term) arrives in Hell.

[Darth Ruinus]

. It may be that pre-existing material simply gets reconfigured into human bodies when the "soul" (for lack of a better term) arrives in Hell.

That's the part that interests me.

This can't be natural, since I would think its a pretty big stretch to believe that an environment is naturally able to reconfigure its own dirt or mud into a perfect replica of a person that is a foreign entity to this dimension.

Or

This "soul" somehow causes the mud to form into a body.

So I have to ask, is a soul in the Biblical sense of the word or is it some thing else, some energy or whatevers that can be explained by sceince? Assuming it is explainable (which I would think it is, considering the tone of this story) then I would guess that people can sooner or later manipulate this thing, to make whatever it is they need.

Or I am way off and it will be explained later on in the story.

[PainRack]

Soviet Katyusha barrages through Heaven's Gate! Fire FOABs!

EDIT:

As Sky Volcano has been coined, the portal to Heaven must be called Heaven's Gate as well!

What about a Stairway to Heaven?:D

[Rahvin]

Mind you, this begs the question: why is that portal permament? Don't portals have to be quite large to be permanent?

AFAIK hell-to-earth portals are permanent by default. Stuart gave an explanation of this quite early on, the metaphor was of an energy stream 'holding the door open'. By contrast, earth-to-hell portals have to fight an energy stream which is trying to 'force the door closed'. Presumably that's a crude analogy for some kind of complicated hyperdimensional physics, but it's noteworthy that the demons were worried that the Iraq hellgate was 'too big to close' - implying that they do normally have to explicitly close portals.

The properties of the hell-heaven portal are unknown, given that it is a portal between two dimensions on the same 'level'.

Hell-to-Earth portals must be closeable. The story specifically stated that the Biblical Sodom story was the work of demons using the same tactic replicated on Detroit and Sheffield. Since there is currently no portal open over the middle east (well, except for the nice new Hellmouth), any portals used in that event could not possibly have been permanent.

Perhaps they very slowly evaporate over time. It's possible that they need to be closed from the Hell side, but that's questionable - why bother closing the mass-destruction portal over Sodom when the portal would lend a significant reminder of the event, which was from what we can gather an attempt to bring humanity into obedience?

[Darth Wong]

So I have to ask, is a soul in the Biblical sense of the word or is it some thing else, some energy or whatevers that can be explained by sceince? Assuming it is explainable (which I would think it is, considering the tone of this story) then I would guess that people can sooner or later manipulate this thing, to make whatever it is they need.

Or I am way off and it will be explained later on in the story.

I don't see why it has to be explained at all. They're fighting a war, and they've just discovered a completely new field of physics and biology. Who knows how long it will take them to sort it out? Right now they're just desperately trying to figure out what they need to know in order to open friendly portals and close hostile portals.

[Darth Ruinus]

I don't see why it has to be explained at all. They're fighting a war, and they've just discovered a completely new field of physics and biology. Who knows how long it will take them to sort it out? Right now they're just desperately trying to figure out what they need to know in order to open friendly portals and close hostile portals.

Oh yeah, the whole "how bodies are made" is probably very low on their list of things to figure out. Like you said, they are more pressed about portal physics, but it is something that I wonder how will affect humanity, much like some other questions they are asking that are only important in the long run (the whole, what happens when people die while they were in jail, and the 4,000 years in jail) stuff.

[dragon]

I don't see why it has to be explained at all. They're fighting a war, and they've just discovered a completely new field of physics and biology. Who knows how long it will take them to sort it out? Right now they're just desperately trying to figure out what they need to know in order to open friendly portals and close hostile portals.

Oh yeah, the whole "how bodies are made" is probably very low on their list of things to figure out. Like you said, they are more pressed about portal physics, but it is something that I wonder how will affect humanity, much like some other questions they are asking that are only important in the long run (the whole, what happens when people die while they were in jail, and the 4,000 years in jail) stuff.

What about say people that commited crimes and then died during a police chase. Do they find him hell and try him or what. Also can the dead sue there murders for wrongful death.

Better yet do we round all the dead Nazis that were never tried and try them for war crimes even though they've been dead for decades. After all do we really want a bunch of Nazis having free reign in hell after the war, or are we going to have massive prisons for people like Jeffery Dahmer.

Brings up alot of interesting questions, don't it.

[Darth Wong]

You know, the baldricks would make excellent jailers for the people in Hell that we don't want freed ...

[dragon]

You know, the baldricks would make excellent jailers for the people in Hell that we don't want freed ...

Now that makes for some nasty ideas. Speaking of jails, this problem is going to pop up soon as they free more and more humans from the surrounding country side.

Also one this that was mentioned once was about how the demons were not native to this planet but instead came and took it over from the origalns inhabitants, which are likely not related to humans.