The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Lagmonster]

I'm seeing a lot of ongoing support for Uriel in this thread; I suppose that someone cool and powerful, who is really something of a tool himself, garners sympathy from people who feel bad for Vader at the end of ROTJ.

[Sute]

"They killed Wuffles!" Yahweh's voice was a mixture of rage and anguish.

Oh wow, after my initial burst of laughter, I actually started feeling pity for the genocidal megalomaniac. The the laughter came back, and then the pity. Nice.

"Much like Hell except the air is clean there, and the light is white not red. Heaven's a bit bigger than Hell. There are those who think Hell is much older than heaven but why they think that I do not know."

Is this foreshadowing that one of the proposed solutions to where Heaven and Hell get their power is correct? Because if so, how could the people of H&H have figured this out? Seems like they would have needed help from someone with an understanding of physics.

[Simon_Jester]

Why is it that Michael seems to have a monopoly on talking to Yeah-what? Shouldn't Uriel be able to get a word in edgewise in his own defense? They're in the same rank, and Michael's shit-flinging is grossly hypocritical given the way he's playing up those puddly little "Bowls of Wrath" which seem hardly more effective than Uriel's attacks.

Uriel has no sense of politics, and his status as the victorious general of the Celestial War makes him "first among equals" among the archangels. So while he can't just give them orders, he has far more influence with Yahweh than any of them do.

And Uriel isn't really smart enough to figure it out, what with being a sensation junkie who has virtually no contact with humans in the way that Michael learned to be Machiavellian from them.

"Where the hell have you been? My people have been cut to pieces up here because you broke your word." Captain Momrajong was almost spitting with sheer rage. The fact he was speaking to a Senior Colonel, a rank equivalent to a one-star General in most other armies didn't really register. "We were promised, promised, that if there was an invasion we'd be relieved by regular troops within 12 hours. That was two days ago."...

At another level, Thawat knew the captain was right. The lightly-armed militia weren't intended to confront regular armies, they were supposed to protect their villages against minor incursions and guarantee security along roads. In most areas of the country that meant looking after tourists. The Tahan Phran had no heavy weapons, no night vision equipment and their body armor was locally-made Level Two. That wouldn't stop a reasonably powerful pistol round...

"That's fine for you to say. I had some of my wounded die because they didn’t get the casualty evacuation we were promised. Are you going to tell their families why they died?"...

"I have twenty rangers left. My original platoon was twenty-five but I've absorbed two other units that were too badly chewed up to stay independent. We've taken forty dead and fifteen wounded, at least five of my dead would have made it if you'd kept your word."...

"They came south of the Si Nakharin Lake. Most of their forces are here, our estimate is divisional strength. Say 20,000 men at most....

The militia captain was right, this area should have been occupied two days ago and the defenses here should have been built and ready. Soldiers would die because they were fighting from a hasty defense instead of a prepared one. Thawat promised himself that, at least, the militia units would suffer no more casualties...

It occurs to me that this is an important counterpoint to all the debate we had over whether General Asanee was right to fire that colonel so quickly back at HQ. The colonel was supposed to have brought up reinforcements to bail out this company-sized unit of rangers and prepare a defensive line.

Instead, he (and others like him) dragged their feet, screwed around, and abandoned a lightly armed force of militia to fight an overwhelming enemy in division strength for nearly TWO DAYS. As a result, the militia took far heavier losses than they were ever expected to withstand, and the defenses that were supposed to hold the Burmese at the border have not been prepared.

That's a pretty epic failure. So I suspect that the colonel had already managed to convict themselves of incompetence before Asanee even got there. That "can't" wasn't just the colonel saying the wrong word and causing the general to go berserk. It was the colonel throwing away his last chance to save his job by indicating that he had an attitude that would upgrade him from "useless idiot" to "marginally worthwhile."

[Buritot]

"Much like Hell except the air is clean there, and the light is white not red. Heaven's a bit bigger than Hell. There are those who think Hell is much older than heaven but why they think that I do not know."

Is this foreshadowing that one of the proposed solutions to where Heaven and Hell get their power is correct? Because if so, how could the people of H&H have figured this out? Seems like they would have needed help from someone with an understanding of physics.

Ican't follow you. What proposed solution? Wait, I think I'm figuring it out - Hell is hot since its smaller and younger whereas Heaven is cooler and larger since it expanded? Did I earn a cookie?

I'm seeing a lot of ongoing support for Uriel in this thread; I suppose that someone cool and powerful, who is really something of a tool himself, garners sympathy from people who feel bad for Vader at the end of ROTJ.

Well, he is a person (so to speak) of mass destruction, which makes him interesting. Then he is being played, which endorses pity. And he's having problems with the potency of his attack, which most of us will probably also have in the years to come - which earns him compassion. What is there not to love? *cough*knighttemplar*cough*

I agree that Uriel wouldn't be caught or captured. What I'd like to see is him being banished or some other plot device that would need him to live part-time with humans. To give him an inside view of humans. THAT would be cute.

And Uriel isn't really smart enough to figure it out, what with being a sensation junkie who has virtually no contact with humans in the way that Michael learned to be Machiavellian from them.

Sensation junkie? By what means, his snuffing-out-ability? Or his little dabble in journalism/photography?

[Morilore]

I don't really support Uriel so much as I want to see Michael have to deal with serious opposition.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hrm, that's interesting, because we KNOW there was a portal that directly connected Heaven and Hell, the Heavengate. They ought to investigate what made THAT one special and they might have a good answer how to get from Earth to Heaven.

It seems like the metaphor is that Heaven is on one mountain and Hell is on another mountain, and Earth lies in a valley between them. It's easy to go from from the mountains down to the valley, much harder to get back up the mountain from the valleys, and in order to get directly from one mountain to the next, you have to build a monumental bridge which is a major undertaking to construct.

However, instead of having mountains and valleys, you have potential energy surfaces (PES). Making a portal between these surfaces requires energy to make a transition between them if you are going to a high PES and expel energy when you are going down one (with the energy spent being activation energy). I even want to make another analogy to spectroscopy, that some transitions are forbidden and portal transitions have selection rules. Like you can't make a transition to a PES of "equal" value, making it a forbidden transition. Of course, forbidden portal transitions do happen from time to time (in the same way that forbidden electronic transitions can happen), hence the existence of things like the Heavengate.

I'd want to make quantum numbers but for universes. Earth has a Universe Number of 0, while Heaven and Hell have a Universe number of 1.

--A 0 --> 1 transition requires energy, both activation energy for the portal and the energy difference between the universes. This makes it "difficult" but clearly possible. it is not a forbidden transition, however.
--A 1 --> 0 transition is a net gain in energy to make the transition, making it an "easy" transition, meaning that you can readily do it as long as you pay the portal's activation energy. After all, didn't Detroit and Sheffield stay open without help for a good while?
--A 1 --> 1 transition is a forbidden transition under Portal Selection Rules. That's not to say you can't happen, but some silly stuff has to occur for it to happen (in the same way d --> d transitions do happen in spectroscopy, even though they are laporte forbidden).

I'd tend to give credence to this that the demons in Hell believed that they were harvesting humans in order to reach a level above theirs in the previous Armageddon...IE, a dimension with a Universe Number of 2 and they were attempting a 1 --> 2 transition.

[Jamesfirecat]

I don't really support Uriel so much as I want to see Michael have to deal with serious opposition.

I think Micheal's already got that in the form of whoever/whatever is behind the rebellious cells that are located in Heaven. After all, whoever created them, managed to avoid being directly found out both by Heaven's secret police, and by Micheal's growing group of supporters.

The "problem" is that nebulous unkowns tend not to make good rivals unless they're played as being all encompassing to a particular character's situation (ie "The Villiage") so at the moment Micheal can't exactly have a dramatic show down or be dramatically opposed by a group that is trying to lay low...

[Simon_Jester]

Sensation junkie? By what means, his snuffing-out-ability? Or his little dabble in journalism/photography?

He's got some of the same psychological weirdness as Apolloin (from Armageddon); the kind of mind that will go "Look how beautiful everything is! Behold the glory of Creation!" while staring at a pile of decomposing corpses that he himself just created."

I suspect that it effs up his sense of perspective something fierce.

[CypherLH]

What's his angle here? The previous story established that Michael and Jesus are friends, and on first blush it looks like he's trying to get Jesus killed. Wouldn't Michael, as the "Great General," lead such an army himself?

Who says they're friends? Michael may just be using Jesus - like everyone else.

Does Michael even have friends? Or confidents? So far he seems to be malignant to the core. In that lane I suppose Big J is just his pot buddy or whatever you want to call it.

But the fact that they're sitting there, face-to-snaky-face with a being that may have experience opening a portal from hell to another world "equivalent to earth" in our could be invaluable for extraterrestrial or even extra-solar exploration.

Huh. Maybe some of the other worlds are not really other universes but rather different planets in our universe. But there is probably some distinguishing feature like phase oscillation or another handwave that would allow us to identify other universes on the spot.

Uriel has yet to strike. I kind of wish he would succeed in snuffing a large percentage of his target, just to give Michael unknowingly an up-yours. On the other hand it would be great capture him, analyse his powers and talk some common sense into him. I doubt he would come around directly, not for a few years, but I think he could be both fiercely loyal to his Lord and simultaneously help the humans capture Him, if not at least to try to show Him how He erred in his ways.

I'm wondering if Uriel could achieve surprise by portaling in somewhere remote and then sneaking in by land to San Diego. Then hurl himself into the air, do his 'bringing peace' death thing, and then portal out before the local air defenses can react. I guess it depends on whether Uriel can think outside of the box.

[Baughn]

That's assuming he has to be in the air to do it at all; I suspect not. Though being on the ground, he'd have to deal with ground shadows as well.

Still. He probably just wouldn't think of it, and of course chances are he'd stick out like a sore thumb.

[Sute]

Is this foreshadowing that one of the proposed solutions to where Heaven and Hell get their power is correct? Because if so, how could the people of H&H have figured this out? Seems like they would have needed help from someone with an understanding of physics.

Ican't follow you. What proposed solution? Wait, I think I'm figuring it out - Hell is hot since its smaller and younger whereas Heaven is cooler and larger since it expanded? Did I earn a cookie?

Wrong direction. Good effort, though.

One of the theories as to where the light in Heaven and Hell was coming from was that both of them are collapsing very, very slowly. I don't know enough about physics to give a proper explanation, but I'll give it a shot.

Our universe is expanding, which means that the initial energy from the Big Bang is becoming more and more dispersed. This results in lower temperatures and lower wavelengths of light. In Heaven and Hell, the situation is the opposite. The two universes are collapsing, which forces the energy of their creation into a smaller area, which results in increased temperature and shorter wavelengths of light. The light appears most prominently in the sky because there isn't much to block it there compared to other areas.

Thus, if they started out at the same size and Hell is older than Heaven, Hell would be smaller because it has collapsed further. I don't know if my explanation is correct, but that is roughly how I remember the speculation going.

[Pelranius]

Michael seems to be convinced that the "Other Conspiracy" will have some fairly substantial plotters (or people that he can frame as such).

Interesting that Yah yah and Morningstar were related.

It would be nice to see how many of those worlds Yahweh has been through all ready (a rough number would be enough).

[Simon_Jester]

That's assuming he has to be in the air to do it at all; I suspect not. Though being on the ground, he'd have to deal with ground shadows as well.

Still. He probably just wouldn't think of it, and of course chances are he'd stick out like a sore thumb.

I don't know; almost getting splattered all over the landscape by a Patriot battery is an excellent incentive to rethink your tactics.

[bcoogler]

Could you run a pipeline...

...hasn't that already been done? I think it was mentioned in a previous chapter that data transfer as well as a fuel pipeline were installed at Hell-Alpha.

D'oh! I need to go back and reread the story then. Forgetting things.

Of course, now I have to wonder how well an object holds up if it is continuously exposed to a portal, such as a pipe, vs an object simply making a transit. If "exposed" is even the right word.

Also, what is the minimum size for a portal? I suspect it's detectability is linked to its size. If we had a sufficiently small portal, and open it at precise locations, that would enable us to portal-assisted surveillance (a.k.a. espionage).

Or assassination? Create a portal just large enough to stick a weapon through, fire and withdraw.

If big portals are stable and self-sustaining, what does that say about tiny portals? Then again, portals up to now have been created by a living person/creature and tiny portals may simply be too difficult create, never mind maintain for any length of time. But with the development of "artificial" portals, you would presumably have a computer monitoring the portal and able to make corrections a thousand times or so per second. That would allow for small, stable spyhole portals that neither Heaven nor Hell could match.

[Beowulf]

Bring some SR-71 Blackbirds out of retirement for strategic reconnaissance. Since we can't move satellites overhead, they're the best alternative we've got. And I sincerely doubt Heaven has anything that could even touch them.

Might need a new paint job, though. Maybe blue and white, if the skies of Heaven are anything like myth has led us to believe. Would make an interesting contrast to the Hell camo.

Paint scheme won't change. Can't change, in fact. It's black for a good reason, and not because it makes for good camouflage. Rather, it makes for faster heat transfer out of the skin into the air.

[Baughn]

And if the portal physics are rich enough, which seems probable, then in a hundred years there could be interdimensional "fighters" made entirely of portal stuff flying around.

Heh. They'd have to be AI-driven, though, or at least AGI-improved humans. Because there's no way an ordinary human could maneuvre in a higher-dimensional space. ^^;

Of course, if my theory is correct and there are some really powerful aliens behind all of this, then such things could show up sooner rather than later..

[JN1]

"What would we do without you Michael-Lan? You've made Heaven worth living in."

Nice line, good work, Stu.

[Junghalli]

"Us? We had to find the portals. Remember, most of the fighting that took place in the Great Celestial War was here on Earth. It's carried in your folk-memories and earliest myths. How many of your stories have scenes of towns besieged by armies of monsters? They're us."

"Our job was to find where Heaven had its portals, seduce those who were tasked with closing them and persuade them to keep them open. Heaven tended to use humans to find out where our portals were.

Am I to take this as proof that the statement in Armageddon of the Celestial War being 4-5 million years ago was quietly retconned away? 4-5 million years ago there wouldn't have been any humans or anything like humans, only Australopithicines.

Unless all this was told to us second-hand by the Angels it suggests the Celestial War was quite recent, since oral legends seem to have survived. The reference to towns suggests sometime after the emergence of agriculturalism, so it would probably have been within the last 10-12,000 years.

Maybe that's why we haven't encountered anybody from deep prehistory in Hell yet. It was before Yahweh did whatever voodoo he did to humans that made the reincarnation system accept them. Presumably before that everybody who died would have just, well, died.

[midnight77]

Am I alone in thinking the leader of the second conspiracy is Jesus?

[Crayz9000]

Don't forget that the angels and Baldricks have a ludicrously long lifespan compared to humans. The Great Celestial War may have started 4-5 million years ago and simply dragged on over the eons, with "brush" combat popping up as civilization developed. It also might explain the biological differences and similarities.

[Peptuck]

Am I alone in thinking the leader of the second conspiracy is Jesus?

Nope.

Personally, I want to see Stuart and the rest of the Salvation War team's take on Jesus.

[tim31]

You were. I'm on board with that theory until told otherwise.

[Peptuck]

Actually, there's only one possible version of Jesus that could properly fit The Salvation War.

[Pelranius]

Don't forget that the angels and Baldricks have a ludicrously long lifespan compared to humans. The Great Celestial War may have started 4-5 million years ago and simply dragged on over the eons, with "brush" combat popping up as civilization developed. It also might explain the biological differences and similarities.

Though at that point I would wonder why the angels and Baldricks stopped coming to Earth in large (relatively so) formations. I can't really think of reasons why a low level bush war would decrease in intensity off the top of my head.

[erik_t]

Am I alone in thinking the leader of the second conspiracy is Jesus?

It hadn't yet occurred to me, but I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Michael and Jesus have spent a lot of time together while stoned; either they're both party to Michael's club, or Jesus is not part of anything subversive.