Salvation War Criticism Thread

[Stark]

Frankly when the writer himself has such obvious scorn for the 'villians', it's difficult for me to understand how he can be outraged people find the story lacking in tension.

[Guardsman Bass]

This is Drama 101 stuff. You build up the threat the heroes face before they triumph (while leaving just enough of a gap in its armor for the heroes to win without a deus ex machina). Uriel's menace goes down every time we see him. He starts out mysterious and terrifying, and gets weaker as we go, until there's no doubt the attack on Los Angeles will fail, and this time, he'll be laser-bait.

Uriel struck me more as a type of tragic character - he was once feared and terrifying, but now he's being played for a fool, and being sent into dangerous situations over and over again until it reaches a kind of pathetic farcical conclusion. There's no question that he's finally going to die at some point, but it's the unavoidableness of it that makes it kind of tragic - he's being more or less killed for reasons that are out of his control and understanding, and by the end, he knows it. Making him dangerously powerful and threatening right up to the end would go against that, and I think would make Uriel much less of an interesting character (he'd be more of a Plot Obstacle to be over-come).

We're told he's the biggest threat we face, he's built up as the biggest threat we face, maybe he is the biggest threat we face...and he's a joke. Belial, a two-bit nobody by comparison, killed more people.

But the breaking of illusions, myths, and conceptions is a big theme in the series, or at least my perception. Belial being more dangerous actually fits well with that - it's the dangerous unknown factors that often get you, and Belial was definitely that. Whereas Uriel was actually less dangerous in some ways, but appeared to be more dangerous, re-emphasizing the role Heaven played as propagandist.

You did a really effective job building Uriel up as a terrifying threat in the first book, and then Pantheocide comes around and dogs can resist him.

I agree the "dogs" part was kind of dumb. It's not like dogs can say "Must keep breathing" to themselves, at least as far as we know - how would they survive something that more or less shuts down their automic life systems?

Why not let the humans run out of ammunition or fuel (or both) mid-battle once and get massacred in return? It only has to happen once, and every battle after that, the reader is constantly worried it it's going to happen again.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[RedImperator]

This is Drama 101 stuff. You build up the threat the heroes face before they triumph (while leaving just enough of a gap in its armor for the heroes to win without a deus ex machina). Uriel's menace goes down every time we see him. He starts out mysterious and terrifying, and gets weaker as we go, until there's no doubt the attack on Los Angeles will fail, and this time, he'll be laser-bait.

Uriel struck me more as a type of tragic character - he was once feared and terrifying, but now he's being played for a fool, and being sent into dangerous situations over and over again until it reaches a kind of pathetic farcical conclusion. There's no question that he's finally going to die at some point, but it's the unavoidableness of it that makes it kind of tragic - he's being more or less killed for reasons that are out of his control and understanding, and by the end, he knows it. Making him dangerously powerful and threatening right up to the end would go against that, and I think would make Uriel much less of an interesting character (he'd be more of a Plot Obstacle to be over-come).

That doesn't work with Uriel obviously being set up as a villain in the first book. And if Uriel isn't your antagonist during the first half of Pantheocide, then what it? The humans can't get into heaven, the plagues are underwhelming, and the kaiju are big dumb monsters who pose a limited threat (when the stakes are two pocket dimensions and an entire planet, one city is a limited threat). Maybe you go with Burma and North Korea being assholes...except, the good guys have teleporters and the combined armed forces of the entire rest of the world, so so much for that (how many chapters did Myanmar last?).

Plus, Uriel being a tragic, sympathetic character means he actually has to be interesting for something besides his powers, and he's not.

We're told he's the biggest threat we face, he's built up as the biggest threat we face, maybe he is the biggest threat we face...and he's a joke. Belial, a two-bit nobody by comparison, killed more people.

But the breaking of illusions, myths, and conceptions is a big theme in the series, or at least my perception. Belial being more dangerous actually fits well with that - it's the dangerous unknown factors that often get you, and Belial was definitely that. Whereas Uriel was actually less dangerous in some ways, but appeared to be more dangerous, re-emphasizing the role Heaven played as propagandist.

Like I said to Stuart, he made most of those points when Satan ate a pair of anti-ship missiles. How much more mythbreaking does the story need? More from Drama 101: if the point you're trying to make is hurting the story, find another way to make the point.

And again, if Uriel isn't the antagonist, then who or what is?

[FireNexus]

I have to agree with the assessment of the Uriel subplot. I was just waiting for him to fucking die already. I think he would be much more interesting in a more limited tense. Uriel would be terrifying if you only knew about him through the lens of the 24-hour news cycle, for instance. As it stands, he's underwhelming and I'd prefer that he died two battles ago, because the parts featuring him weren't very interesting. He was just another bronze age savage who realized that he wasn't such hot shit anymore. How often must we be beaten over the head with this concept before we can move on?

Moreover, I was under the impression that there at least used to be a huge black market for Russian nukes. Stuart, you would probably know far better about this than I would, so if that's a misconception I'd be interested to hear about it. Assuming it's true, you'd think someone with such limitless financial resources as Michael would have been building up a small arsenal of nukes as a contingency during the 90s right up until the message.

[Samuel]

Moreover, I was under the impression that there at least used to be a huge black market for Russian nukes. Stuart, you would probably know far better about this than I would, so if that's a misconception I'd be interested to hear about it. Assuming it's true, you'd think someone with such limitless financial resources as Michael would have been building up a small arsenal of nukes as a contingency during the 90s right up until the message.

I second this. If it is at all possible, give him nukes. It would even make sense why they haven't been used yet- Micheal wants a trump card and is playing seperate from God.

[Stuart]

I second this. If it is at all possible, give him nukes. It would even make sense why they haven't been used yet- Micheal wants a trump card and is playing seperate from God.

Spoiler

I already have. Tekuma

[Jamesfirecat]

I too think that it'd be an interesting idea for Micheal to have a nuke. He'd probably have picked it up as the weapon he intended to use to start off/bring about his coup since he figured that if there was anything capable of killing Yahweh this would be it. Of course if he used it he'd probably end up blowing up his club, but hey, he could always build another one somewhere else.

It'd seem a bit out of left field at the moment since I'm not sure what drugs Micheal could have picked up in Russia, but I'd be willing to be that Micheal might have a nuke and possibly some Russian RPGs, AKs would be easier to use, but they're not going to do any real damage to an angel while an RPG would probably take down an angel fairly well.

[Ryan Thunder]

I second this. If it is at all possible, give him nukes. It would even make sense why they haven't been used yet- Micheal wants a trump card and is playing seperate from God.

Spoiler

I already have. Tekuma

If you're referring to the one that he merely returned to sender, that doesn't count.

[Formless]

Methinks the point just sailed over your head.

No one's forcing you to read it.

Ahh, brilliant rebuttle. Almost makes you forget that its a Red Herring, the last refuge of the butthurt fanboy who doesn't understand the point of constructive criticism.

Bullshit. As has been shown in the story numerous times, the angels/demons can be killed by conventional (and nuclear weaponry), but that doesn't mean they aren't fucking tough.

*Whoosh!* Tougher than your average human is a piss poor advantage of little note when all it takes to get around it is to simply increase the firepower you're throwing at them. I mean, how do you think the war with hell got named "The Curbstomp War" in Pantheocide in the first place?

You keep arguing that the story is wank. Why? Because a group of super-tough humanoids with Bronze Age technology (which they have for understandable and logical reasons) gets owned by a significantly more advanced civilization?

Because only in a world where you are taking the bible inanely literally does this not essentially make the villains a strawman of what they are supposed to represent. Sure, that approach works very well when arguing down fundies in real life, but it makes for really lame storytelling. Also Stuart has the ability to pick and choose what parts of the bible he uses and like the polar opposite of a fundy he only uses the parts that make God look like a pussy; the rest get the Book of Revelations treatment and dismissed. This approach is at odds with the premise of the story IMO; namely that god exists, the christian fundies have been (partially) right all along, ques massive Outside Context Problem for humanity.

That type of tech imbalance has actually happened in human history.

If I wanted to read about how the Zulu got their heads handed to them by European colonialists, I would do that. I would not be reading a fantasy novel that's over 50k words long. This kind of story just doesn't fill out a book that long.

Moreover, the imbalance is what makes the story so interesting in some ways - it's basically trying to flesh as much of the Old Testament theology out as much as possible, and a big theme of the story is the unraveling of the myths and creatures that haunted human nightmares for centuries in-universe.

*Yawn* If you are interested in that kind of story, go knock yourself out. This is at best a world building exercise, NOT the premise for a novel over 50k words long. What I'm interested in isn't how the setting works in XYZ technobable terms, I'm interested in seeing how humanity reacts to and interacts with god now that we know for sure he's there (and hostile).

Then compare it to your idea, "what if, for example, the creatures could only be harmed by a type of chemical/biological weapon?" Have you even thought through the implications of what that means, in the way Stuart has with his scenario? How does that universe even interact with a normal universe, if the creatures are walking No Limits Fallacies except for their One Achilles Heel? Yes, I know you proposed some type of "science mystery" story, where the challenge is figuring out their scientific weakness, but to be honest, that type of thing sounds even lamer than what Stuart's doing.

"No limits?" What is it with you and this asinine black white fallacy? Sure, it might be a bit over the top to give them only one Achilles heel, but frankly that's better than an enemy whose only advantage can be negated simply by using more powerful ammo. Again, if the only thing you have to do to defeat an antagonist is to press the big red button that fires the missiles (rinse, lather, repeat) then you might as well give up on conflict because it ain't happening.

I never questioned the fact that there are elements there that obviously are fantastical (or at least Plot Created), but at least Stuart's idea tries to put them in some type of framework that ties into the world with its natural laws and so forth. As opposed to proposing No Limits Fallacy creatures except for the One Achilles Heel.

Backpeddle faster. There is a lot of fantasy that puts effort into having consistent rules, but just because you can slap quantum physics buzzwords onto said words doesn't make your writing realistic or hard sci-fi. At best it puts you on the level of Star Trek. And no, that's not a compliment.

Ah, so you're basically turning them into a plot coupon.

Just because you can slap a label on it doesn't mean you have a valid criticism. They are plot devices either way; the important point is their function in the story. Either way the legions of hell are going to be defeated by a plot device, but by making it difficult to obtain said plot device you can recover some semblance of tension.

It's there. What, are you pissed because he didn't feel the need to base the entire story around them?

*Whoosh!* A one off incident that gets promptly forgotten is no way to introduce conflict or tension into the story. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?

Ah, so instead of embracing death immediately as God himself just told you to do, you decide to put it off until you can get others to do so with you, even though everybody else heard the Message? It's possible, so what the hell? I'll let you have it.

Concession accepted.

[TimothyC]

If you're referring to the one that he merely returned to sender, that doesn't count.

<smacks Ryan>

Tekuma is the missing Israeli nuclear armed sub.

[Ryan Thunder]

If you're referring to the one that he merely returned to sender, that doesn't count.

<smacks Ryan>

Tekuma is the missing Israeli nuclear armed sub.

Ah. Pardon me if I'm not up to date on the minutae.

And as a serious question, how in the hell did they get a submarine, of all things?

[tim31]

How about you READ ON AS THE STORY DEVELOPS? You're a fucking idiot Ryan.

[Samuel]

but frankly that's better than an enemy whose only advantage can be negated simply by using more powerful ammo.

And how do you suppose we do that without openly dumping physical laws? What can just shrugg off a nuke?

Either way the legions of hell are going to be defeated by a plot device, but by making it difficult to obtain said plot device you can recover some semblance of tension.

So basically humanity needs to have some sort of magic weapon to defeat hell and heaven? How is that better?

[Duckie]

but frankly that's better than an enemy whose only advantage can be negated simply by using more powerful ammo.

And how do you suppose we do that without openly dumping physical laws? What can just shrugg off a nuke?

As a random example, something which can teleport, either to another location or to a pocket dimension (since other dimensions do in fact exist) for temporary waiting until the blast is gone.

Such a creature could only be killed by nukes (or most things) if it's surprised by them.

Various sundry other supernatural reasons in any setting which includes teleportation, hell, and demons. 'I'm limiting myself to physical laws' isn't an excuse when you have portals to other dimensions, which while plausible sounding really are not. You can easily create other fictional or even wildly obviously implausible technology (or magic, even!) which still has a ring of versmillitude, if it is described consistently and obeys logical precepts.

[Guardsman Bass]

Ah, so instead of embracing death immediately as God himself just told you to do, you decide to put it off until you can get others to do so with you, even though everybody else heard the Message? It's possible, so what the hell? I'll let you have it.

Concession accepted.

I feel more amused than humbled, seeing as how I'm arguing over the story with somebody who apparently hates the nature of the story and "would never read a fantasy novel of that length" or some other shit like that.

But what the hell - I'll let it go. We're talking past each other at this point, anyways.

[Ford Prefect]

And how do you suppose we do that without openly dumping physical laws? What can just shrugg off a nuke?

Uriel is tough enough that he can eat a couple of air-to-air missiles and yet is so graceful in the air that his turning around is described as 'beautiful'. He can even hover in place. There's a fair jump between this and 'tank a nuclear detonation at zero distance', but it's not like there's anything particularly realistic about angel biology anyway, especially if we are supposed to accept that they turned out like this naturally (has it ever been suggested they may have been created by anyone? I honestly can't remember). As Duckie says 'going by physical laws' is not much of a defense when you have creatures that survive by absorbing the ambient energy of a collapsing pocket universe. This isn't to say that Stuart should throw out something which could, but this 'justification' is specious.


Anyway, this is getting on to a pretty worthless tangent. However, I have to ask Stuart, do you honestly think it's okay to have an antagonist which isn't even remotely a credible threat? There's a difference between knowing a protagonist is ultimately going to win, because that's what the protagonist does, and the protagonist walking through all their problems without a care in the world. I don't have a problem with the idea of the human's winning - even in my own conception where even infiltrators made from the blood and memory of Beelzebul's victims could wreck tanks, the humans are still the victors - I just have a problem with protagonists who win without breaking a sweat. Even as a kid I knew that Luke Skywalker was going to save the day, but the Death Star, and the Empire by extension, still struck me as being dangerous. Yeah, the plucky rebels were always going to win, but the looming threat of the villain was still credible. At this point, the fact that someone has stolen a submarine full of nuclear weapons doesn't even phase me, because I know that this poses about as much threat as whomever stealing a fishing boat.

I can appreciate the point that you're trying to make here, that the theme is about the new ways of thinking overcoming the old. Killing Uriel with a laser is not exactly subtle, my friend, and frankly the idea loses a lot of impact seeing as at this point the humans already, to repeat Red's point here, killed Satan with missiles. Let's be honest here: you could present this theme and still have Hell and Heaven be a credible threat. The new ways don't have to overcome the old ways effortlessly for this theme to work. Your story would not be harmed by having credible, effective villains in it.

[Guardsman Bass]

Anyway, this is getting on to a pretty worthless tangent. However, I have to ask Stuart, do you honestly think it's okay to have an antagonist which isn't even remotely a credible threat? There's a difference between knowing a protagonist is ultimately going to win, because that's what the protagonist does, and the protagonist walking through all their problems without a care in the world. I don't have a problem with the idea of the human's winning - even in my own conception where even infiltrators made from the blood and memory of Beelzebul's victims could wreck tanks, the humans are still the victors - I just have a problem with protagonists who win without breaking a sweat.

I think part of the problem is that while Stuart has raised some of the problems - what to do with Hell and its occupants, the exorbitant cost of the war machine, the massive strain on the economies and industrial base, the effects of some of the Revelations stuff - he just hasn't really hammered them in yet. That's part of why it appears so easy - the tactical victories are masking the problems that are lurking. It'd be nice if we got to see some of those hammer home during Pantheocide as opposed to simply being all pushed off to Lords of War - we really need some indication of how the strain is hitting home for the humans in the story.

That said, it'd be interesting if the conquest of Heaven and the burden of trying to deal with it, the angels, and the captive humans was the straw that broke the camel's back in economic and strategic terms. Particularly since there are the Others, who might be watching in-universe, and learning the lessons (namely, don't give the humans a chance to get near a portal to your hide-out).

[Junghalli]

Humans can't survive direct hits from nukes either.

The fact that Demons and Angels use portals to get around could let them fight in ways that would make it very hard for humans to effectively exploit their full firepower advantage. They could, for example, teleport huge numbers of soldiers into the middle of populated cities, using the large numbers of humans all around them as hostages against full power counterattack, and then teleport back out when they'd accomplish whatever they came for or if things got too hot. You'd need to eliminate the requirement for a human sensitive to lock on the initial portal for that to work though. Or make it so that Succubi and whatever the Angelic equivalent is won't be totally obvious to anyone with a piece of aluminum foil wrapped around his head.

[Ryan Thunder]

How about you READ ON AS THE STORY DEVELOPS? You're a fucking idiot Ryan.

Fuck off. OMG I can't remember the name of an obscure city and get it confused with an obscure submarine. Jesus, I must be a moron.

[tim31]

You are a moron. You're acting like a four year old child that keeps asking 'and why is the' questions in order to try and stay involved.

[Ryan Thunder]

EDIT: Never mind.

[Darth Yan]

To be fair, we have no clue how powerful plagues 4 and 5 are. Considering their knowledge of human cities is better then the demons, they could drop lava on multiple cities, such as New York, London, DC, Moscow, even on Yammanatu. Plus the lack of resources has been touched on. Leopard beast took 2 hrs even with decent quality weapons, and Fluffy is killing without opposition because the Israeli's are strapped for resources, and what they do have is rather weak (the planes were shot out before they were even in shooting range, and the most damage done was a freaking truck bomb that a guy made in his garage.) Also, what about bowl 7. If done properly, the earthquake might devastate the US, or set off a chain of environmental disasters. And the hailstones can cause a lot of damage. Finally, what of the Red Dragon? That things more powerful then the other 3 beasts put together, and those things took an obscene amount of fire power to kill, plus there's still the Lamb Beast, and that thing can breath fire.

[Shroom Man 777]

I find it awesome that people can argue against 'openly dumping physical laws' while accepting the notion that people somehow are able to survive the death and destruction of their bodies, and enter a randome altarnate realty (RAR!) while looking pretty and perfect and in the peak of their youth, and then go lounge around for all eternity in a pool of lava while constantly 'regenerating' without nutrition as a form of torture.

I guess it is acceptable because some kind of technobabble solution has been made up for it?

[Darth Fanboy]

The Orange Crush interchange is not in Los Angeles! It's a few miles south of the county line in Orange County! I hope there wasn't a baseball or hockey game going on when the battle broke out, Disneyland keeps that area crowded enough without tens of thousands of extra people and cars in the area adding to it.

Killing Crystal Cathedral is fine, but i'll be damned if they took out the Del Taco off Orangewood!

[Samuel]

I find it awesome that people can argue against 'openly dumping physical laws' while accepting the notion that people somehow are able to survive the death and destruction of their bodies, and enter a randome altarnate realty (RAR!) while looking pretty and perfect and in the peak of their youth, and then go lounge around for all eternity in a pool of lava while constantly 'regenerating' without nutrition as a form of torture.

I guess it is acceptable because some kind of technobabble solution has been made up for it?

Because it would be in the story no matter what? Even if the forces of Hell were badass and had magic we'd still have humans who were in that matter for the afterlife to work.