EU Fic: Prequel Trilogy Era

[Illuminatus Primus]

As to the Jedi. I don't think using Luke's status makes any point of what we are trying to go for. Luke was in a time period where Jedi were practically extinct, of course he was part of the normal structure.

But in the Old Republic era the Jedi are massive, they are huge, they are powerful, they have their own fleets, supports, organization, bureacracies and establishments. Their training and efficiency makes them unique to pretty much all things.

I don't think the Jedi should be such a state into themselves.

They function as lone knights or samuari (in a broad sense) rather than officials in the military. They follow the Force, use their powers and all that.

Then its stupid to call them generals.

This makes sense in light of what we see and are as relaistic as having them being beholden to the rules of law and order thaty you seem to want to make them.

No it isn't. The how are the Jedi going to be able to act without supervision by and sanction by the State. How would the Republic be a fair democratic society if some self-appointed and self-governed elite could just arbitrarily act against you, damage your property, deny you liberty or your life?

Your last paragraphj in the Jedi section makes sense. I agree with a mental Jedi controlling from the back, or a special agent Jedi fighting with the special forces, but I also think that if a Jedi feels the need to back out or change things or do something else then he is legally allowed to do it. A Jedi is foremost and forever a Jedi, and then a soldier or a poltiican or whatever else they may be.

Why would there Jedi instincts permit them to violate the military's own code of uniform justice and regulations? Why should a Jedi Knight of dubious education and experience relative to a career officer and commander be allowed to usurp the latter's legal command authority and interfere of his own accord at random, especially when his education and expertise is idiosyncratic and not dedicated to the execution of such a responsibility.

The Jedi Purge is the Jedi Purge, but I don't have a problem with the time period also encompassing other attenmpts at removing threats. But hunting down and killing a billion indivduals trained to survive in almost any environment with the Force as their ally is not an easy task. Nor should it be. Its a huculrean effort made all the more amazing because it succeeds.

I think they should be caught off-guard and betrayed, and also be weakened by Palpatine limiting their legal rights and power before hand and attrition from the wars.

I don't see any reason why we need to change the way they use lightsabers in the Star Wars universe. From the official books nad movies its a weapon used by the Jedi and Sith as their main weapon. Lets keep to that.

I don't see any reason why Jedi should be better generals than real generals because they feel like it.

Palpatine modifying the term limit and adding new powers as well as restructuring it all happen over time in a very slow but sure and steady format. The only huge and amazing thing that happens is him becoming Emperor. Which if Episode 3 happens after the Empire is already formed cannot be.

Episode 2 should have the Palpatine become the Emperor. Episode 3 should be a decade into the Empire and see the Purge, the Duel and the birth of the twins.

No. I disagree. The character development becomes problematic if a decade passes between episodes. The plot should be narrowly focused. And Palpatine's Empire is more climactic if it comes on the heels of stomping out the Jedi.

By idea for the clone wars make sense. It has the multifaceted wars that encompass each other but overlap. Its a period of time and not a particular indivdual thing. Some wars have different purposes and meaing than others. I think it makes a lot of sense in light of our discussions.

I think it should be like the Hundred Years' War, the Napoleonic Wars, or the Thirty Years War, since they are actual examples of overlaying wars and a series of conflicts like the Clone Wars.

[Admiral Felire]

So your opinion on Jedi differs from my opinion. They are both opinions and in this case it seems that canon backs my opinion that Jedi do that which they wish - both in the Old Repuiblic and later on in the New Republic.

They are Generals because they have overall control over the situation. They control the strategic and tactical aspects fo the war and they do it before the battle ensures. While it does some retain their position in the general command echolon (like Yoda, for example) while others go into battle. Different actions based on different abilities and personalities.

The Jedi are overseen and supervised by the Jedi Order, which is their nominal organization. They are beyond the state, they follow their own code of coduct, training and operations.

They are not in the miltiary. They are Jedi working with the military. There is a difference. They do not sign up and loose their Jedi status to become soldiers. They never go through basic training or officer candidate school. They are Jedi and the training they have during their time in the Jedi Order surficces and surpaces that which others get. They see the situation and use their authroity as Jedi to get involved.

While its easy to catch them off-guard when those that are following orders to not have any angry itnent, it should not be easy to do that to billions of Jedi at the same time. And afterward its hard to catch them unaware. Their Force senses tingle and they sense things. Afterward its a shift to sending mass numbers of regular troops backed up by the various Jedi catchers or Force Sensitive imperials to catch and kill them one at a time.

Its not because they feel like it, its because both their Jedi training and the Force makes it easier for them.

Alot of character development should happen in the books between the movies, isn't that what you said pages ago. The points of the story that need to be told need to be told and time is not an enemy between episodes.

I don't see why we need to look to real world wars and not come up with what we want on our own. If the idea works we should go with it despite it not being based on some factual real-world historical event or multiple events coming together.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Clone Wars

The Clone Wars were indisputably the most intensely violent and wide-spread conflict in the history of the Galactic Republic, outclassing such major conflicts as the Krath War, the Alaskan-Coruscant War, the Cleansing of the Nine Houses, and the Great Schisms. The Clone Wars were truly unprecedented in the Galactic Union, only being matched in their importance and impression on galactic society by the Unification Wars which precipitated the uniting of the galaxy. The Republic, for its flaws, was unprepared for such a conflict. In the words of Nabooian First Minister Sio Bibble, introducing the Clone Wars in his memoirs, Journey through History (unpublished until after his death due to unrelenting pressure from the COMPNOR College of Literature which claimed it to be unmutual), "There had not been a full-scale war since the foundation of the Republic."

Origins

The Clone Wars began simply enough. Contrary to many popular histories, the characteristic military cloning of the Clone Wars was not unprecedented. A Kaminoan clone unit participated in Stark's War in the decades before the Clone Wars. It is even intensely debated when the Clone Wars began. Did it begin with the Invasion of Clak'dor IV, or the Marcus Lopo Lane Incident? As a gradually escalating series of regional wars which became more intense and eventually enguled the entire galaxy, it become a historical debate what incident began the Clone Wars and what was the exact flash point. How critical was the assassination of the na-Baron of Iridius? The Revisionist school has pointed out that the Clone Wars as a historiographical term began more as a polemic by Core Worlders on the wild barbarism of the outlying regions where the wars began. Traditionalists dispute this, claiming the "consolidation phase" of the wars by 20 BrS definitely shows there is legitimate value in considering the Wars as a macrohistorical event into themselves.

Its a crude five-minutes, and I'll revise this for a full draft. Who wants more?

All I have to say, Felire, is that if you think increasing the political importance of Pelleaon's state in the other thread - contrary to canonical portrayal - and adding ships arbitrarily to counts somehow serves realism but removing flipping Jedi bringing swords to gunfights on the fields of Geonosis or climbing goddamn cliffs in the new animated series is consistent, you're crazy. I also think you're on your own as far as thinking Jedi on the front as a great idea and the acclamation should be in Ep 2 and still use a spread out model.

Little quoted blurbs from the Clone Wars book being considered: the origin of the Imperial Marines, the Jedi (awaiting discussion from Raptor's write-up, though!), the Republican Armed Forces, military cloning, and the Sith.

[Admiral Felire]

Your little Clone Wars article is interesting and informative. I wouldn't mind reading more. I do think that something intense has to happen to bring it to the Core, and that intense action should also propel Palpatine into the spotlight and make him Chancellor. Thus I think an invasion of Naboo would fit into the general history, even if it does not fit into the Episode format.

++

The Pellaeon Empire has a lot of political power in the galaxy. Despite its size its voice is somewhat large. Especially during the Hand of Thawn duology when it was growing and then again during the NJO crisis when it aided the Republic. These are not small things they have huge importance.

++

Until I hear the thoughts and opinions of others besides yourself, I don't care that you have arbitrary declared something out. This is a collaborative project, with collaborative decision making processes. Which means others have to put in their imput before anything final is determined.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Stop the thread, I want to get on-

Basically, this is a quick fic, a vignette from this period; is it consistent with what's ben theorised so far?


It didn’t exactly look like a bastion of freedom; it looked like a desk.
A large executive desk, faced in greelwood, with the built in safe, cowering hole, electronics- and, in fact, light shielding. If the building caught fire or got hit by a terrorist bomb, there was a good chance that the man behind the desk could switch it to survival mode, crash it through the windows and ride it safely to ground.

Although, right now, a fire or a small firefight would be a welcome diversion. How the kriff did we get ourselves into this mess? Catawrayannis ‘Ray’ Halan asked himself, rhetorically, looking at his collection of desk toys. Fidget sticks and distractors, intended to let the surface mind spin it’s wheels while his hindbrain churned through the data and spat out possibilities.
That magnetic thing, squeeze it and it burst out in a flower of suspended components that drifted back together through the air, a disintegrating and reforming snowflake; the fifteen page manual it had come with had said it was to encourage contemplation of ever changing structure.

It was a science, now. The- what were their names again, the woodland freaks?- Ithorians, that was it. They had specific rules and manuals of etiquette that dictated the precise curvature and twist of the bark of a twig, and one of their most respected- or despised- professions was that of ‘stick-tweaker’ who made sure they grew that way for export.
Everything was a science, now. Twenty-five thousand years, everything had been measured, everything had been calculated and computed again, and then the computations had been analysed and computed to the n’th generation- no room left for chance.

Which left an analyst behind a desk, trying to figure out and get ahead of the increasingly elaborate ways the humans and others of the Republic tried to assert their individuality by breaking the rules.
Crises were coming thicker and faster, now. Generational thing. Ray Halan had been looking through the files, trying to figure out the last time something like this had happened and what had been done about it then, forcing himself to do it by the Ministry of Development’s rules rather than hotdog it like the market trader he had used to be.

He had been one of the Bank of the Core’s young hotshots, an economic sniper bouncing half developed economies and buying out their futures, controlling a development and investment fund- who said the Republic was peaceful?
As much peace and tranquillity as a cyclone. It didn’t show, much; the republic seemed on a permanent slow upward climb, gradually filling out it’s space, newly opened worlds taking up population growth, old worlds kept living and vital by their ties to the new.

Ray Halan had driven himself hard, and he had been good at it. He was, personally, a wealthy man, but sixteen to eighteen hour days had never left him time to spend much of it.
He had paid for a virtual replica of his personality, and given it nothing to do, just to see how he would cope if he did jack it in to “spend more time with his family”; ray2 had gone mad and committed suicide within months. He had become addicted to the pressure, come to thrive on the stress.

Right. That was the line they all told themselves, and the average retirement age from the market floor was thirty-five.
He had quit early, after the stress had started making him paranoid; the thought went like this.
Power, surely, is the ability to make a difference. We have access to immense amounts of energy, even more immense amounts of credit that buys and sells all that energy; and most of his colleagues/rivals would have stopped there, or at least at ‘so how come I feel wrung out, can’t I hire someone else to do this for me?’

He had got as far as “So how come nothing much ever seems to happen? All this need to get on and get ahead, millions of species and trillions of permutations of rivalry, all that social pressure, power, liquidity, and the Republic changes so slowly?”
The usual explanation for that was the sheer size of it all; the galaxy was simply too big and too diverse for one man or one group of men to do much about. He had stopped believing that the day he brokered his first quadrillion- credit deal.

It simply didn’t add up. The galaxy was a living turbulent thing; the odds of so many people pulling in so many different directions and nothing happening were zero.
Actually, he had been right. He had simply keeled over on the market floor one day; was in the hospital, grimly calculating how long it would take before the upward trend of recovery collided with the downward trend of going stir crazy from having nothing to do, when a little grey man came to visit him and told him he had a point. Then made him a job offer.

So now he worked for the Ministry of Development whose job it was, in essence, to make sure nothing happened. It was impossible, facing an entire galaxy of experienced con artists and hucksters, to do anything entirely hidden, but smearing the whole business with a thick layer of conspiracy theory helped act as protective colouration.
It was interesting, even if a part of him did want to blow the whole thing wide open; but the rest knew that his colleagues would find some way of defusing any revelation.

Actually, never more so than now. There was a knock on his door; he looked up- realised, in the process, that it was dark outside- saw through the one way panel that it was the visitor he was expecting, and she had brought two bodyguards.
Flip the door switch and set the anti- assassination systems in the desk to active. ‘What’s the going rate for a contract on a librarian these days?’ he asked, as the door opened.

‘Typical Catawrayannis. I haven’t seen you in weeks and the first words out of your mouth are about money.’ She said, looking first amused, then increasingly irate at him as he sat behind his desk, not bothering to rise to meet her. In fact, he was too distracted to worry much about the niceties right now.
‘Leave the goons outside, they’re not cleared for this.’ He said flatly.
‘If you’ve called me over here to shout at me, your office does not have that kind of authority.’ She snapped at him.

He realised. Damned etiquette, he thought, but said ‘I’m sorry, Adrienne, I’ve just been very preoccupied with this. I need to talk to you. Come in, take a seat.’
‘And you give me your word as an official of the republic that you won’t try to rape me across your desk?’ she said, almost managing to make it sound like she meant it to be a joke.
I know how good you are with a blaster, he thought, with a chair leg, krunworm fork, pen, bare fists and feet for that matter. She only bothers to bring those thugs so she can pretend she needs them.

‘Stop trying to find out whether I’m corruptible; you know perfectly well the answer’s yes, and you know you can’t afford my price. Now, are you ready to get down to business?’
She sat at the desk opposite him, the door swinging shut in the faces of the two civilian- clad blastermen. Assistant Master Referencer Adrienne Damiano, of the Special Acquisitions Branch of the Library of the Republic, had a considerable effect on him, they both knew it. Maybe she could make him do something stupid for her- but only if it didn’t look like she was trying.

‘This report your office generated-‘ he got straight to business; technically they were of equal government-service rank, but she had been a spy all her working life. –‘I need the raw data.’
She managed not to look surprised; decided to give him the benefit of the doubt that he knew what the usual, mandatory response would be; temporised by asking ‘All of it?’

‘I don’t need to know which side your agent dresses on; if they’re the species I think they are I don’t want to. I do need the primary source as it came in to you. Your people think they’re good analysts, they’re wrong. They’ve over-thought this, boiled all the flavour out of it, I have to have it unprocessed.’
She noticed he had been up for forty straight hours chewing this one over; caught the high manic edge in his voice. He was a good man with an excellent nose.

There were species across the republic who could sense virtually every from of energy known to exist. Sensitive well beyond the human visual spectrum, species whose way was lit by gamma flashes and others who could hear the stars sing. What we really need, Adrienne thought, is to uncover a race who can see money. Who, through whatever magical biology, can directly perceive the flow of credit. Then we need to figure out how to get them on our side.
Until then a crack market hired gun who can practically smell money, like Ray Halan, is the next best thing.

‘It seemed like a perfectly ordinary mid- scale scam, you’re sure this is as important as your gut says it is?’ she asked.
‘No, that’s why I need the data.’ He yelled, before calming down. ‘Sorry. Look, I think there’s more to it than that. On the surface it’s perfectly ordinary, a company doing what a company does, no big deal to stop, usual technique. The alarm bells start ringing when I try to reconstruct their business plan, figure out why they thought it was a good plan.’
‘This could be worth further investigation- where do you think would be a good place to look?’ Adrienne asked, interested.

‘Their rivals. I want to know what Damorian’s internal- mark you, internal- analysis of this is; that first, Coraldyne, Hoersch- Kessel too. I want to know how they think it’s being done. All in the raw. Keep copies and play with them, but this stinks.’
‘Bad enough to justify calling in the Jedi?’ Adrienne asked.
‘Those arrogant bastards? Let me rig a medium sized supernova first, then go ahead, call them in. No, that’s not an official viewpoint of the ministry, they’ve just been giving me grief lately.’

‘Poor Ray. Tell me all about it.’ She said, sounding joking again.
‘You’re not familiar with their split personality?’
‘They don’t practise what they preach, they get in our way and frequently leave us to sort out their mess. And their archives are a black hole, they never cooperate if they can help it.’ Adrienne said, more strongly than she felt. Leading him out.
‘They get their funds- officially- from the Senate, and from donations. Bull. In practise, they get it from the same place everyone else does, the markets, and have you ever tried to outguess, in futures trading, a guy who can see the future?’

‘Jedi playing the stock exchange? It makes an interesting picture. Any evidence?’ She said, interested.
He laughed, a high maniacal laugh. ‘Evidence? They’re schizophrenic. Kriffing zealots doing the right thing so whatever they do is right, you know? They’ve got no conscience when it comes to giving people money, they’re securing funds for the order so they go for the return, every time. That often means the dirtiest, and their hedge fund doesn’t ask many questions.

I have at least five cases of Jedi Knights going in and destroying business operations that were being bankrolled by the consistory of the Jedi Order; twice on the request of the Senate. Two slave trading rings, a spice farm, an arms manufacturer and an illicit cloning shop. Ah. Aahhh.’
‘Are you all right?’ she asked.
‘I’ve got it. The missing piece. I need all the evidence you can get me.’ Halan said.

‘Look, bespoke terraforming gear, right? Requires a two, three tier work force, large numbers of craftsmen, no big deal, droids can do that, right? Top level design and engineering, handful of high priced contracts, they have that already, right? It’s the middle tier.’ Halan realised. ‘Skilled technicians. The initial cost is too high, the ongoing cost is too low. That would do it, that would do, that fits. It’s ridiculously expensive to get droids to do that kind of work-‘
‘Why? We have numerous adaptive droids in information handling.’ She said.

‘Government service special case, the price of droids bears no relation to how much they actually cost, we’ve been screwing with the economics of robotics fifteen different ways from year one and it’s year twenty-five thousand. They have the capabilities at the price that we want them to have.
Med droids are artificially cheap, the other professions are artificially expensive. If they’re breeding and training a clone workforce, quick to learn and not needing to be paid, that fits this cost curve. Oh, this is big.’

‘I understand now.’ She said. ‘This might involve calling in the Jedi after all. Too big for the investigative branch.’
‘I need more to go on before I can do more than the opening moves. We can shut them down with regulation, harass them with investigations until they get the message, or just buy them out, front company, hostile takeover, but I need something that’s likely to convince a bunch of merchant bankers. Hmph. Maybe the clones will kill all the Jedi and leave the galaxy a better place.’
‘Give me a couple of hours to raid the files, I’ll send a courier pod.’ She said, standing up and turning to go. ‘Oh, is there anything else?’

‘As a matter of fact, there is.’ He said, thinking about it. ‘Might help keep me awake. The Consistory of the Jedi does well- far better than any unassisted human or computer analyst, right? And every time they get caught at it, the slippery bastards send someone from the clean- handed, apart from the blood, the militant side of the order, a shining pillar of heroic rectitude who doesn’t know one kriffing thing and we can’t get any more than vacant apologies and promises out of. Last couple of times, it was Kenobi.
Anyway, there’s a blip. One merchant bank I don’t like the feel of, that’s doing almost as well as the Jedi. Old money, apparently, the House of Palpatine. They’re way too good, could be a Jedi front.’

‘I have heard of them; the head of the house is in politics. Actually tipped as your next- but-one boss. Are you positive that’s a boat you want to rock?’ she asked, hoping he didn’t notice a sudden flash of interest.
‘I can keep my mouth shut,’ he said, a statement which was only moderately true, especially when he was suffering from sleep deprivation, ‘but I do like to know what it is I’m keeping my mouth shut about.’
‘I’ll see what I can find. Take care of yourself, now.’ She said, and left him, hunched over his desk and starting to fall asleep.

She collected her goons; they were more than usually necessary, because she was going to spend a lot of time thinking. Start the official wheels in motion, of course; but she also had to report to her other boss, a prosperous banker and rising politician, and warn him that Halan was getting too close to the truth. Again.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think this is interesting, real interesting. I like how you've given a lot of thought to a regime and civilization which is more or less static and unchanging and has been so for sooo long.

I'll even say my big-picture concept has been most influenced by Publius, Saxton, and you, probably.

[Darth Hoth]

And the original concept for lightsabers being more common? Canonical depictions like arming Tepani nobles with foil-versions? Make it a bit more ambiguous instead of a dull "Jedi vs. Sith" angle.

Whence did that concept come, unused early scripts or WEG? Pretty much every source from Marvel Comics up to Bantam/Del Rey EU agrees that lightsabres were rare and (overall) very associated with the Jedi. That includes the canon films. I am not saying that is necessarily how we must portray it - in fact, I like the lightsabre in your idea as a pseudo-archaic quasi-ceremonial weapon for nobility and Jedi - but that is what the canon says, and the canon also says that Inquisitors carried lightsabres. Along with no source (that I am aware of) ever saying - though Jerec's case might imply it - that Force-users were in the minority there. Yes, I overall agree with TNOiP (with some reservations on names being borrowed, sounding out of character, &c.), but that extrapolation is something of a stretch.

You could even have a hard-core secularist Inquisitor who doesn't realize his organization is a glove for the occultists, and finds out to his dismay that his senior superiors are all cultists or magi.

Actually a cool idea. But how does that carry if the Inquisitorius is the supposed evolution/successor of the Jedi Inquisition?

You on one hand don't want the inquisitors to be non-Force-magi predominantly, despite that being the best interpretation of the standing evidence, and on the other you want wussy Jedi because that's what some evidence says?

Why is it the best interpretation again? And yes, my idea there was that Jedi have been shown to vary quite a lot in power level. Take the extreme feats (C'baoth, Anakin) and compare them to the average McJedi, who mostly just runs around like a retard, waving a lightsabre in the air. Making them all wankmonsters and supergods is not streamlining, it is wholesale reimagining.

I think the vast majority should be Marvel-class superheroes. The top of the bell-curve should be in that territory. The lessers should have very specific talents and specializations. Like Tionne, the archivist and Jedi archeologist.

But that makes it very hard to accomodate ordinary characters of any weight, and causes problems with their depiction. Say, you wished the Great Purge to be somewhat inspired by the Nazi purges after the Reichstag Fire. Now, I do not disagree with this, but how can you have grassroots storming McJedi's mansion when he is an Alpha+ Psyker equivalent who can just squash them to jelly? How can a sniper take out McJedi if he can shrug off TLs like Jacen apparently did in LotF? How can an Inquisitorius squad ever hope to take down McJedi if they are mostly not Force-sensitives and have to fight what amounts to a slightly weaker DE Palpatine? Massive overuse of Deus Ex Machina Ysalamiri? Or sending a million Inquisitors in a hundred at a time to tire him out?

Please do not get me wrong, I do agree that the more powerful Jedi should be powerful as hell (canon upper limits should be the rough measure). But not with every last grunt being a Primarch.

Which IS totally inconsistent with the evidence. I think you want to have your cake and eat it too based genuinely on whimsy, and apply standards of support and standing canon consistency irregularly as a result. We're using The New Order in Power as a reference. We agreed on that. Furthermore, your concept of the Inquisitorius is what the Secret Order of the Emperor is, or the Hierarchy in general. Furthermore, using "inquisitor" for a completely informal agency is absurd considering we're now considering it the descendent or mirror image of an official Jedi organization and considering historical inquisitors developed a complex trial and legal system with law enforcement agents, courts, interrogators, etc. The Inquisition is just that, an inquisition. It has specialist torturers and lawyers, it has show trials for Christ's sake. Your vision is not bad, in of itself, but its not consistent with the supported and attributed concept of the Inquisitorius, inconsistent with historical treatments of inquisitors, and already met by other groups - the Hierarchy in general, and the Secret Order in particular. Better yet, why not have anti-Jedi and self-policing agents amongst the Secret Order as well? It'd be just like Palpatine to have the larger official state agency of the Inquisitorius and then another group played closer to the chest with overlapping responsibility (think ISB vs. Imperial Intelligence). I actually think that's really interesting. Its what he would do.

This does make sense. I was thinking of several concepts at once and did not read that we accepted the Inqs as a Jedi offshoot. If they are, I agree with the above, in regards to their position; I also admit that it fits the historical models better. Your idea for the Secret Order is also a good one. However, the idea of an Inquisition/Inquisitorius continuity does make it impossible to have people think that they are a completely secular outfit. Certainly, I agree that they can have a lot of flunkies and ground-level non-sensitive personnel, grassroots, informers, clerks and even soldiers, but the actual sabre-carrying Inquisitors should be Force adepts.

We have those - the Secret Order and Prophets - for that purpose, we retained them both in the EU they are depicted in and The New Order in Power as an in-house official reference. The entire point of an INQUISITION is to cow obedience and suppress heresy. The entire conception is meaningless if it lacks any exposure. Its like the Nazis only -secretly- disliking and persecuting Jews.

Point conceded per above.

No, I'm saying the Jedi should number billions (not decided on the order of magnitude maybe tens?). The "officially-registered, Imperial" dark side adepts should number in the hundreds of thousands counting every Jerec to every little Prophet, every little magi Inquisitor, and Secret Order agent.

Why should the Darksiders be a million times fewer than the Jedi were?

[Darth Hoth]

Absolutely not. This is the most eye-rollingly retarded ridiculous thing in the canonical depiction of the Clone War. You cannot command combined-arms maneuver combat purely from plans or with a conference call, and while risking your ass on the front. Jedi on the front should be heavy ordinance/artillery magnets. Its totally absurd.

Agreed. I would, however, have no problem with a few "Jedi Generals" being asshats or media whores who "lead" from the front for the hell of it, perhaps leaving actual work to their chief of staff or whatnots. Say, a bit of a superhagiographed Patton/MacArthur with demigod powers.

Millions at least. But if we drop the Jedi, I'm dropping the dark side host. I think it should be a thousandth or less of the Jedi Order at its height. Their MO is surgical strikes and subtle machinations - the dark siders, that is - and they're not numerous like the Jedi because their whole character is different.

I disagree quite strongly; the Dark Side is about manipulation, to be sure, but it is not limited to that. I think you are being too narrowly focusing on the prequels here and not looking at all the factors. Remember, the Banite Sith were forced into hiding for a thousand years because they suffered a catastrophic defeat; even Lucas never had it differently. They should and would transform after seizing power; scheming is all very good when you are in opposition, but when you govern, you need enforcers and monitors. Hence a big "Hierarchy". And, of course, this is subverting the premises of EUFic; we are not supposed to make major changes to the Bantam-era universe just to acknowledge whimsy, and throwing out the massive Dark Host is just that.

I do agree with your points on Jedi size; they should be billions at least to matter.

I disagree. I want to bring back more archaicisms in general, to give a greater feel across the whole concept.

Agreed. The concept of the Jedi is anachronistic as is, and I do not mind following that track. We should be careful not to go oveboard, however.

I think the Empire should exist in all but name, but his acclamation as Emperor, full stop, should be a climactic and ground-changing event.

Actually, I am with Felire here. His acclamation would fit in the end of the second film, presumably where the Clone Wars are declared effectively ended. This should not in itself be a "Raah! Power! Unlimited POWERRR!" moment, but a grand and happy occasion, though with subtle sinister undertones (a bit like what the end parade of Ep I should have been). The people, along with most of the Jedi, should agree that this is the right course, only realising later it was a mistake.

[Darth Hoth]

As to the Jedi. I don't think using Luke's status makes any point of what we are trying to go for. Luke was in a time period where Jedi were practically extinct, of course he was part of the normal structure.

But in the Old Republic era the Jedi are massive, they are huge, they are powerful, they have their own fleets, supports, organization, bureacracies and establishments. Their training and efficiency makes them unique to pretty much all things.

I don't think the Jedi should be such a state into themselves.

Actually, I would not mind going with this: Make the Jedi an ally/quasi-independent division of the Republic, akin to how the Templars had extraordinary powers. The Jedi could have a small domain of their own, with planets and a small standing fleet/army, perhaps having an Ossus analogue as their basilica and seat of government. Jedi-ruled worlds should be admitted into the Republic on the same basis as the existing monarchies it included, under their own laws. (Jedi could also have a lot of influence by marrying into Core monarchies and such.) In addition, they would have specific mandates within the Republic proper that, while granting them substantial powers (e.g., arresting suspected Dark Side cultists) would not put them wholly above the law. Perhaps one could have them answer to a special court, or just a high instance in the Republican apparatus (the Chancellery)?

Your last paragraphj in the Jedi section makes sense. I agree with a mental Jedi controlling from the back, or a special agent Jedi fighting with the special forces, but I also think that if a Jedi feels the need to back out or change things or do something else then he is legally allowed to do it. A Jedi is foremost and forever a Jedi, and then a soldier or a poltiican or whatever else they may be.

Why would there Jedi instincts permit them to violate the military's own code of uniform justice and regulations? Why should a Jedi Knight of dubious education and experience relative to a career officer and commander be allowed to usurp the latter's legal command authority and interfere of his own accord at random, especially when his education and expertise is idiosyncratic and not dedicated to the execution of such a responsibility.

Agreement with Illuminatus; Jedi should not be some form of political commissars. Rather, have individual Jedi serve in the Republic military as they see fit, on the chair that is seen fit given their skills and education, and then under the same rules as anyone else. Alternatively, they could (if my proposal goes through) serve in their own forces, where I imagine that the upper ranks could be monopolised by actual Jedi (as opposed to levied peasants/conscripts for the rank-and-file; I like the idea of anachronistic, feudalesque Knights).

The Jedi Purge is the Jedi Purge, but I don't have a problem with the time period also encompassing other attenmpts at removing threats. But hunting down and killing a billion indivduals trained to survive in almost any environment with the Force as their ally is not an easy task. Nor should it be. Its a huculrean effort made all the more amazing because it succeeds.

I think they should be caught off-guard and betrayed, and also be weakened by Palpatine limiting their legal rights and power before hand and attrition from the wars.

[/quote]
Right.

Palpatine modifying the term limit and adding new powers as well as restructuring it all happen over time in a very slow but sure and steady format. The only huge and amazing thing that happens is him becoming Emperor. Which if Episode 3 happens after the Empire is already formed cannot be.

Episode 2 should have the Palpatine become the Emperor. Episode 3 should be a decade into the Empire and see the Purge, the Duel and the birth of the twins.

No. I disagree. The character development becomes problematic if a decade passes between episodes. The plot should be narrowly focused. And Palpatine's Empire is more climactic if it comes on the heels of stomping out the Jedi.

No, I agree with Felire here. A stretched-out trilogy does not necessarily make good characterisation/development impossible; one could cite The Godfather as an example to the contrary. Besides, most of the development should be fleshed out in the mid-series stories/fluff, as was the case with the actual EU; the films are just a part of the greater whole, the condensed version if you like. And I would like the "Imperialisation" to be less sudden and "Oh, there was an edict, let's change everything that's been static for a thousand years overnight" than the films implied. Rather than having the Declaration of Empire/A New Order throw everything into the new, evil mould, I would work with the idea of the Empire being gradually subverted even after its declaration, with things growing worse for, say, the Jedi over time.

The Clone Wars

The Clone Wars were indisputably the most intensely violent and wide-spread conflict in the history of the Galactic Republic, outclassing such major conflicts as the Krath War, the Alaskan-Coruscant War, the Cleansing of the Nine Houses, and the Great Schisms. The Clone Wars were truly unprecedented in the Galactic Union, only being matched in their importance and impression on galactic society by the Unification Wars which precipitated the uniting of the galaxy. The Republic, for its flaws, was unprepared for such a conflict. In the words of Nabooian First Minister Sio Bibble, introducing the Clone Wars in his memoirs, Journey through History (unpublished until after his death due to unrelenting pressure from the COMPNOR College of Literature which claimed it to be unmutual), "There had not been a full-scale war since the foundation of the Republic."

Origins

The Clone Wars began simply enough. Contrary to many popular histories, the characteristic military cloning of the Clone Wars was not unprecedented. A Kaminoan clone unit participated in Stark's War in the decades before the Clone Wars. It is even intensely debated when the Clone Wars began. Did it begin with the Invasion of Clak'dor IV, or the Marcus Lopo Lane Incident? As a gradually escalating series of regional wars which became more intense and eventually enguled the entire galaxy, it become a historical debate what incident began the Clone Wars and what was the exact flash point. How critical was the assassination of the na-Baron of Iridius? The Revisionist school has pointed out that the Clone Wars as a historiographical term began more as a polemic by Core Worlders on the wild barbarism of the outlying regions where the wars began. Traditionalists dispute this, claiming the "consolidation phase" of the wars by 20 BrS definitely shows there is legitimate value in considering the Wars as a macrohistorical event into themselves.

Its a crude five-minutes, and I'll revise this for a full draft. Who wants more?

[. . . ]

Little quoted blurbs from the Clone Wars book being considered: the origin of the Imperial Marines, the Jedi (awaiting discussion from Raptor's write-up, though!), the Republican Armed Forces, military cloning, and the Sith.

Interesting. I would love to see more, as well as Raptor's take on the Jedi. Great stuff.

However, I feel that we are starting to slide into the wrong direction here; was not the original idea to start with the EU and then go back to the prequels, rather than the other way around.

[Darth Raptor]

This is what I have so far. Sorry it took so long. More to come.

*****

The Jedi Order

The Jedi Order is an ancient and pan-galactic society devoted to the light side of the Force, its philosophical study and practical applications. While they are scarcely understood, phenomena traditionally ascribed to the Force are repeatable and independently verifiable. Nevertheless, the Order adheres to a mystical philosophy and a dogmatic code of morality and conduct. For this reason, scholars and historians have traditionally classified the Jedi Order as a Force cult; one of the so-called "true religions", or those centered on an unscientific study of the very real phenomena known as the Force. The legendary virtue and heroism of its members combined with its undeniable history of applying the Force both safely and effectively (a history not shared by competing philosophies) have helped to make the Jedi Order the galaxy's dominant Force cult. Their interpretation of the Force is generally accepted as "correct" by the galaxy at large. Due to its role in the foundation of the Galactic Republic and its function in the defense and maintenance thereof, the Jedi Order enjoys considerable power and influence within the Republic Authority, while remaining technically independent of said government. The Jedi have a standing mandate to explore the galaxy, defend the Republic from external threats, expand (through peaceful means) its sphere of influence, mediate domestic and international disputes, recruit from among the citizenry, regulate the study, knowledge and practice of Force-related abilities and to enforce law and order within Republic territory; a mandate that has not been altered since the Republic was established over twenty-four thousand years ago.

History

Unfortunately, the precise origins of the Jedi Order have been lost to prehistory. Jedi scholars and secular archaeologists alike have posited a great many competing and hotly-contested hypotheses on the matter. Most probably, the Order cannot trace its beginnings to any one philosophy, religion or group in any one era or location. Instead, they were inspired by a great many groups of prehistoric Force magi like the Chatos Paladins and the Dai Bendu Monks. Indeed, the eponymous, eight-spoked roundel of the Order of Dai Bendu has come to symbolize galactic unity and features heavily in both Jedi and Republic iconography.

The modern and mature form of the Jedi Order predates the Galactic Republic by at least two thousand years and archaeological evidence points to an Order that is more ancient still. The first indisputable accounts are those of the Force Wars of Tython, a nigh-mythical, Deep Core planet where scientists and philosophers from across the galaxy gathered to study the Ashla, or light side of the Force. An inevitable conflict arose between the Jedi and those who became corrupted by the Bogan, or dark side of the Force. Due to an appalling lack of contemporary evidence and an abundance of contradictory accounts, the Force Wars are (understandably) dismissed by most secular and even Jedi scholars as the genesis of the modern Order. Instead, those who maintain that they actually occurred consider them a precursor to the First Great Schism, an interstellar war between the Jedi and their sworn enemies; the various groups of dark side magi.

The First Great Schism was itself part and symptomatic of the Unification Wars. The pre-Republic Jedi were defined by their violent opposition to dark side witches and heretical sects of their own cult. Thus, the Jedi quickly became known as chivalrous heroes; the saviors and protectors of peace-loving peoples throughout the galaxy. It was as much by the cruelty and barbarism of their enemies as it was by their own merits that they acquired this reputation. The Jedi were in a perfect position to unite the Great Powers of the Core and their allies against the Anti-Unification Alliance and its barbarian pawns. They did so, and found that while numerous, their enemies were as disorganized as they were dissolute. What began as an alliance of necessity for the survival of civilization would eventually become the Galactic Republic. With the Jedi to stand vigil as the eternal guardians of peace and justice, the future of civilization was assured.

Recruitment, Training and Placement

By law, membership in the Jedi Order is voluntary. Individuals suspected to possess potential are identified at birth by routine medical tests. In eukaryotic species, this is done by performing a count of midi-chlorians per cell. An individual's midi-chlorian count is positively-correlated with latent Force abilities, but a battery of further tests are required for confirmation. These tests are performed by the recruiting Knight or officer of the Inquisition. If the presence of genuine ability is confirmed, the individual is, with the written consent of their legal guardians, inducted into the Jedi Order at the age of seven.

Training takes place in one of two ways; the first is for Knights of Master level to take on the initiate as their personal apprentice. The second is for the initiate to attend a Jedi Academy or Praxeum. Apprentice Jedi and Academy students are called Padawans and, in addition to their studies, serve their masters and/or the Order itself as pages until they reach the legal age of majority for their species. Padawans old enough for military service act as squires in the direct support of Knights in the field, or begin to assume the responsibilities of their occupational specialty. Republic law mandates that they receive a full primary and secondary education in addition to their martial and occupational training. Most also complete a baccalaureate-level tertiary education or better.

Occupational placement is partly determined by the needs of the Order and partly by the talents and temperaments of the individual Padawan. Squires under the charge of a Knight can only become a Knight, while Academy-trained Padawans have a wider range of specializations available to them. Jedi that pursue a less generalized career can begin their specialized training as early as fourteen and as late as eighteen. All Jedi carry lightsabers and have some degree of martial skill, even if they never see combat.

Knights

The martial arm of the Jedi Order, the Swift Sword and Invincible Shield of the Galactic Republic, the Jedi Knights are the finest warriors in the galaxy. While masters of swordsmanship and known for their gleaming, plastoid body armor, Jedi Knights are savants at battle in any medium. Infantry, armor, aviation, marksmanship, reconnaissance, infiltration and special forces; Jedi Knights can do it all and do it better than even the most gifted Force-blind individual. Knights-errant act on their own or with/in support of other Knights-errant. Others are dispatched on missions by the Jedi Councils, either alone or in support of Republic military operations. Still others serve in the Armed Forces of the Republic on active duty; with most of these being special forces or naval aviators.

As one would expect, many Knights move on to occupy command roles. These are the Jedi Generals and their powers of telepathy and precognition have allowed them to lead the armies and fleets of the Republic to victory time and again. Jedi Generals are specialists in battle meditation, a skill that allows them to coordinate and inspire their troops to an extent that would otherwise be impossible.

Apothecaries

Apothecaries are masters of alchemy (Force-assisted, trans-elemental chemistry) and psychometabolism, making them physicians and pharmacologists without peer. While a Jedi Apothecary cannot do anything that modern medicine cannot, they can do so anywhere and at any time. This makes them invaluable on the battlefield or at the scene of an epidemic or natural disaster; especially in circumstances of critical time or scarce resources. Apothecaries are also employed in planetary terraforming and reclamation efforts. In addition to their preternatural abilities, Jedi apothecaries are almost always fully-trained biologists or conventional physicians.

*****

Next I'll cover the Temple, which is the central authority that coordinates Jedi in the field and liaises with the Republic Authority and the Ministry, which is the layservice of Force-blind devotees that manages the day to day, bureaucratic operations of the Order. My Inquisition has Force-blind field agents working under Knight-Inquisitors, so there's no conflict with making it the Jedi Inquisition the precursor to Palpatine's Inquisitorius. You may notice that I mentioned Jedi Councils, plural. That's because I envision regional circuits with "the" Council on Coruscant being the supreme/ecumenical Jedi Council.

[Darth Hoth]

Nice. It could use a little polishing, but overall I agree with what it says; good stuff. I especially like the idea of the Order having a large support base of non-sensitives, as opposed to doing everything themselves; the Jedi are highly placed and respected, and would doubtless have lesser servants for minor tasks. I look forward to the continuation that you mention in the last paragraph.

A question: What is your take on my ideas of having the Jedi as a power with some territory of its own that they rule, more feudal-style and less strongly aligned with the Republic?

[Darth Raptor]

A question: What is your take on my ideas of having the Jedi as a power with some territory of its own that they rule, more feudal-style and less strongly aligned with the Republic?

Problematic. The Jedi "own" planets, but this is Star Wars. You can win habitable planets in a card game. Unless knightly fiefdoms are the size they were in real life, we can't really grant sizable territories to every Knight. Some places will be "papal" states; they'll be part of the Order's ancient, pre-Republic holdings or the site of something important (Temples, Academies, tombs, crystal quarries, libraries, etc). Those systems will be the domain of the Order itself though, not a single Knight. They won't be ascetic Buddhists, but they won't be decadent Catholics. PR is a big enough problem for them already.

I have no problem with them being granted non-heritable gentry and styled "Sir Somebody" and stuff, though.

[Admiral Felire]

I like the idea of Jedi owning lands as fiefs. That in times past they might have saved an interstellar noble or something and in exchange they recieved a small planet. A planet that had nothing at first but that the Jedi cultivated to be highly profitable and perfect for their needs.

I like the idea of the Jedi having legions of non-Force Sensitive assistants who handle the grudge work.

++

I don't think they should be political commissars. I would think they wouild not care unless they were given the mission to hunt for traitors in a group by their authority or the Republic Government. But I also don't think that they should shoehorn themselves into the legal and poltical appratus of other agencies when they work with them.

They are Jedi and I think should be above the normal mundane chain of commands - both civil and military.

++

Darth Raptor

I like your intro paragraph, its exactly my view of how we should go about things.

I disagree with the voluntary membership thing. I think once a Jedi always a Jedi and I think that that canon view should be maintained.

I like your dual apprentice and school system.

This gives the option for the fact that the Jedi are pretty much trained in advanced things beyond what most galactic citizens have declared.

By the way, I think you should change "Republic law mandates" to "Jedi law mandates" I don't think that the Republic could mandate galactic levels of education, they don't seem to be that sort of power.

I would make it so that the term Jedi Knight applies to all member sof the order, not just those with the combat training. I think that keeps the feel of them that we should not loose.

I like how you have set it up and I eagerly await more information on this version of it. I also like how you have kept certain points from canon while also adding other features. That is the point of the project afterall, keep what is good and change that which is not.

[Darth Raptor]

I disagree with the voluntary membership thing. I think once a Jedi always a Jedi and I think that that canon view should be maintained.

That's not the canon view, though. Count Dooku left the Order, as did others. It can be really rare bordering on unheard of, but they shouldn't be press-ganged. Mostly, I meant that one can choose not to join up in the first place if they don't want to, but the other door is still open. Think about Jedi psychology for a minute and ask yourself if you want Knights who hate being Knights.

By the way, I think you should change "Republic law mandates" to "Jedi law mandates" I don't think that the Republic could mandate galactic levels of education, they don't seem to be that sort of power.

No, it's something imposed on them by the Republic, along with the "no conscription" rule (dirty secret; that's not how they did things before the age of accountability). It's just mandatory elementary and high school though, they're not required to go to university but most do anyway. I figure the educational standard among Jedi is about as good as officers in the Imperial Navy. Less specialized in some cases, more so in others.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't think they should have grants of fiefs per se, maybe you could touch that inspiration by them being given a grant of money or property upon retirement from active service by the Order. Have it that many Jedi after decades of heroic service and a characteristic Force-bound affinity for the soil and nature, often elect property on a sparsely populated Mid Rim world over bonds or funds or what have you.

[Admiral Felire]

While I get your point about the leaving thing (considering that it happened) I don't think it should be that common. Maybe you should add something that references why they can leave only a very very small portion ever do.

Onto the secodn point, I really don't see how it would be Republic law that mandates it. They don't have that much control over the various plaents in the Republic and the Jedi are a semi-independent bunch. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that there is mandatory education, but who makes it forciably required. By the way, I personally think a Jedi's education is better than pretty much anybody else's in the galaxy, and it comes free to all Jedi.

++

I don't think individual Jedi should have worlds they own. I think the ORDER should own planets and other such territory.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The point is we don't want a state-sanctioned organization which violates all kinds of basic human and civil rights with the A-OKAY stamp of the Republic. Forcibly conscripting of children, putting them in violent war, and denying children the right to leave or be educated to they might be able to live functioning lives is cruel and a big deal.

PS. Raptor, I think its hilarious you made them Sword and Shield since Publius made the ISB the "Sword and Shield of the Empire." That's just the kind of sick joke Palpatine would love.

[Admiral Felire]

Just because it goes against modern sensatiblities doesn't mean squat when we are talking about other cultures. Not all cultures, including the Middle Ages view of the Templars that you are using as inspirations, have any sort of things that are so important in today's poltical right idelogy. This includes the right of conscription and having 'children' in war.

In addition, if you read what I said, I don't have a problem with mandatory education, I have a problem with it being declared by the Republic rather than through ancient Jedi law. I don't think the Republic should have any say in how the Jedi are organized or educated. If the Jedi predate the Republic then they follow their own rules and laws beyond what the Republic has.

[Darth Raptor]

I don't think they should have grants of fiefs per se, maybe you could touch that inspiration by them being given a grant of money or property upon retirement from active service by the Order. Have it that many Jedi after decades of heroic service and a characteristic Force-bound affinity for the soil and nature, often elect property on a sparsely populated Mid Rim world over bonds or funds or what have you.

That seems reasonable.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If the Republic has no say in how the Jedi are run, why the Jedi be allowed to arrest, destroy the property and livelihood of, harass, investigate, harm, or even kill Republic citizens? They have to be granted that power by the state, and it should be subject to checks and accountability. Jedi who abuse their powers should be investigated, arrested, prosecuted, and punished themselves.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Did anyone have thoughts about this? Hoth? Raptor?

Jedi should fight organically in the armed forces. Look at Luke in the Alliance. He's a great pilot, so they put him in a squadron on important missions. He does even better, so he leads a squadron of aces for special purposes and the hardest missions. He's a great irregular combatant, so they let him go with the Solo mission to Endor's surface.

Jedi who're superb soldiers should do what our superb soldiers do, go into dangerous special forces applications. They should do infiltration, sabotage, recon, search and rescue, assasinations, renditions of the greatest risk. Or if they are good at leadership, they should command forces like any other general. If they are particularly good as predicting the future, they should work with intel in advising officers. If they are particularly good at mentalic influence, they should serve as a sophisticated command and communications mechanism for a commanding officer (C'boath to Thrawn). If they're superbly talented, maybe they can do a bunch of the same. What they shouldn't do is fight on the front line in standard maneuver warfare, where they make little difference and are too likely to be killed by heavy weaponry. They should especially not do it while also commanding troops. If they do fight directly, it shouldn't be idiotically bringing a sword to a gunfight, it should be because their direct and blunt Force abilities are godlike. If they're like Palpatine and can wreck flotillas with their thoughts, sure. If they're like Palpatine and can kill many people from afar with a thought, fine. If they're like Luke and can crush walkers with a thought, fine. But they shouldn't mix these situations and abilities and characteristics where it isn't context appropriate.

[Darth Raptor]

That's almost exactly what I was going for. After all, it's only a matter of time before the stormtrooper/battle droid analogues figure out that all they have to do is switch to full power and aim at their feet.

[Admiral Felire]

The iconic lightsaber vs lightsaber duels, and lightsaber vs. blasters, and lightsabers vs. other weapons, is a major point of Star Wars and simply should not be lost because of what one's personal opinions of whether it makes sense or not. We see it in Episode 4, 5 and 6. We see it used alot in the EU and it should not be forgotten or erased.

Jedi fight with lightsabers. They block blaster bolts with the weapon or the Force. They get out of dodge of huge weapons through Force Speed and other powers.

They bring lightsabers to gun fights because the Force makes it possible for them to both equal and then surpass the fact that they have a melee weapon.

They are Knights, they don't ride horses anymore, but they still use swords. And I don't see why we should change that.

[Darth Hoth]

I don't think they should have grants of fiefs per se, maybe you could touch that inspiration by them being given a grant of money or property upon retirement from active service by the Order. Have it that many Jedi after decades of heroic service and a characteristic Force-bound affinity for the soil and nature, often elect property on a sparsely populated Mid Rim world over bonds or funds or what have you.

I did not mean for all Jedi to do it. But the greatest Lords and Masters might, perhaps, rule a planet, with their own retinues of Knights. Just an idea I had, somewhat akin to what we see of the anachronistic-feudal structure in Jedi vs Sith. Then there should be a few fortress/academy worlds owned by the Order as a whole. This might be something quite small, akin to Malta for the Hospitaliers; I liked Raptor's idea of ancient Jedi worlds from pre-Republic times.

[Darth Raptor]

A lightsaber and a suit of light armor is fine for what a Jedi normally does; i.e., traveling the galaxy, writing wrongs and generally playing the hero.

Warfare is a whole different animal. When Jedi go into battle, it shouldn't be like the Clone Wars cartoon where they DID joust with big old lances while riding speeder bikes, it should be like the mission to Myrkr in Star by Star. I love that book so hard.