EU Fic: NJO Reboot

[Noble Ire]

About your second point, I was wondering the fact that if the are from outside the galaxy wouldn't they not have turbolasers. Wouldn't they have other types of weapons.

I will concede that certain technology could be somewhat different, but the fundamental "physics" behind their operation should be similar, at least if one expects relatively comparable performance (its difficult to rationalize a ship armed with molten rocks or short-range plasma cannons going toe to toe with a Star Destroyer or Mon Calamari cruiser).

[Admiral Felire]

Noble Ire, here is a question for you. Could you come up with some technologies (no need for actual physics briefs) that both fit your requirement but have some sort of organic component. Some ideas on weapons and other general technologies could be useful if we want to figure out how to make the Yuuzuhan Vong be an advanced (as in general technology equal to Star Wars) and organic using people.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I disagree. The SWU is technologically static, they've probably brought science to near its possible edge. And there's only so many ways to invent the wheel; I don't think aliens would find something instead of lasers to use for the same application as us because their "culture is different."

[Admiral Felire]

A turbolaser is not a laser despite its name.

But they would have different forms and appearances and applications for the technologies they have developed. Its those features that are interesting as most of them might have a biological substrate to them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It is not realistic for organic chemistry to somehow contrive gigaton-yields.

[Admiral Felire]

It would be possible if nine-tenths of the material that allows it to accomplish its goals is Force based, they do not follow the laws of physics the Force is everything and can do anything with the right application of power.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And how are you going to explain that every engineer in the galaxy doesn't use this shit and the Jedi aren't changed forever by the Second Empire era? Why would this magic gimmicktry appear and then vanish? Why would they bother to build Star Destroyers when they have magic jellyfish ships?

And if they're Force-based, why bother with squishy organic chemistry-based tech, because its not even really honest to call it organic technology.

[Admiral Felire]

Because there is something about the Yuuzhan Vong that make them unique, something about their past and the galaxy they came from. Whatever this unknown quality is it makes it so taht their capabilities are slightly off from the normal population, allowing for them to do this Force-based engineering.

Its not actually unique in the Star Wars galaxy, the Infinity Empire ages and ages ago used Force-based technology. The first hyperdrive was based on that actually before being engineering by the Corellians and given to the core. Now, you might wish to change it but unless we do its canon, and even if we do it doesn't change the fact that is in the official Star Wars setting.

In addition, you yourself have stated that the galaxy is technically reached a stasis point in technological development. Despite the ability to create it they might no accept it because its not better than current tech, its near equal to it. Not even as equal, just near but different enough to provide capabilities.

If the race that we have in the NJO timeframe not use organic technology than its not the NJO and its not the Yuuzhan Vong no matter how you might want to try and say it is.

And if your doing that then you need to come out and say what this project actually is - its an attempt to take away all that happened in official Star Wars and replace it with what you beleive (no know, believes) to be what matters.

There is a difference between using the general points of a book or time frame but ignoring or modifying some of the direct specifics and throwing out it all (such as intergalactic invasion, organic technology) and making it something else entirely.

This project was to modify things to fit with other things better. But it was supposed to use what already exists not discard it entirely for the
hell of it. And that is what seems to be doing. Because things like auging semantics or changing the exact nature of a race or culture is changing the universe for no reason but because you think that makes more sense. Which leads into one's personal ideas of Star Wars rather than the actual ideas of Star Wars.

[Noble Ire]

Noble Ire, here is a question for you. Could you come up with some technologies (no need for actual physics briefs) that both fit your requirement but have some sort of organic component. Some ideas on weapons and other general technologies could be useful if we want to figure out how to make the Yuuzuhan Vong be an advanced (as in general technology equal to Star Wars) and organic using people.

Once again, I don't see why you think that a civilizaton obsessed with the organic couldn't use technology when needed. Even the Yuuzhan Vong of the EU are forced to compromise their dogma in the face of harsh realities; their shapers are shown to have to bend the culture's strict rules on what they can and cannot create in order to survive the rigors of long-distance travel and combat the GFFA. My proposal simply takes this one step further; as certain technologies are essential to a militaristic, galactic civilization, they can be "sanctified" and thus used towards the "Greater Purpose", whatever that might be.

[Admiral Felire]

Noble Ire

Okay, fine, I get your concept. But if we start listing all the artifical technologies that they will need to have an equal chance then you are going to make their organic technology be entirely social and whatnot. That is not what they are.

Now, if you left it to hyperdrive and maybe one type of starship weapon then that could work. But if you made it hyperdive, ship weapons, realspace engines, vehicles, long range communications technology, and on and on then you would dilute who they are.

One or two things do not make them mechanical but if you make everything that makes them a threat be technological then why have their organic technology at all. And if you do that then you no longer have the Yuuzhan Vong.

[Noble Ire]

I return to my point about the preeminence of military practicality over dogma. Sacrificing the more unbelievable aspects of Vong biotics does not mean that we have to completely change their cultural motivations and society. Indeed, I think that it might even add more depth to the Yuuzhan Vong to the whole.

Let's say that, long before the start of this new NJO, the Vong were a fledgling interstellar species bent on conquest that used virtually all biotic technology, save for, perhaps, FTL. They set their sights on their first target, another young civilization, one with more conventional technology. The Vong are sounly trounced, and forced to adapt or abandon their hopes for an interstellar empire. So, political reality intrudes upon religious dogma, and over time, the culture develops another caste, an off-shoot of shapers that deals with mechanical technology. Building off of their previous, limited usage of the technical sphere, this caste revolutionizes the Vong's empire, creating powerful warships and facilitating galactic-scale civilization. Their empire begins to grow again, and the caste is firmly ensconced in society, their specific technologies sanctified as necessary evils on the road to greatness. Due to the overriding dominance of anti-machinist religious dogma (perhaps directed more at AI, for example), Vong society is relatively intact, but it now contains tension between the "Machinist" caste, the members of which are both revered for enabling Vong civilization and disdained for close contact with technology, and the rest of the culture. In the new NJO plot, this caste might even take the place of the Shamed Ones as an internal force of dissent later in the story arc.

Additionally, one could easily make Vong technology appear alien even if it operated on the same fundamental principles as that of the GFFA. Undoubtedly, with such a strong prejudice against technology, the Machinist Caste would attempt to model their creations after organic forms, leading to rather bizarre hull designs and technological variations.

[Admiral Felire]

Noble Ire

Interesting, interesting. I would personally have to give it some thought before I personally accept, but at the same time I think it makes sense and would work. If we include them then it would allow for some internal problems and all that which would be used for extra plot points.

By the way, we should keep the shamed ones, that way we add another element but do not loose anyone.

[evillejedi]

This is why I approached it from the angle I did, the macroscale design of the ships can be organic it doesn't need to be straight lines and smooth curves because the structure of the hull is integrated and grown rather than modular manufactured pieces. A Miid-Kor or Yorik-something can still look relatively the same externally, behave in a fundamentally similar but alien way and because the molecular properties are similar you can easily just call it a different way to the same technology.

I just disagree with squishy macroscale, BUGS and volcano cannons, I'd rather see macroscale organic growths because of their underlying microstructure and function, purpose built nanoscale-organic/mechanical hybrid weaponry (explain thudbugs and amphistaffs not as living creatures, but as constructs that mimic desirable properties of living creatures) and something that can believably approach the yield of TLs (just say they have a heavy reliance on Ion cannon like plasma launchers and give them some advantage in gravity manipulation) I think the contrast can be purely visual and perspective with regards to the technology. In fact much of the technology is probably used in the normal universe in some form or fashion, but for various reasons isn't socially or economically accepted in this galaxy.

the important part is that in no way should the vong have anything technologically disruptive to the timeline, they have to be equivalent enough that any incorporation of their technology in legacy eras is not a paradigm shift to the general galactic reality. The only way to achieve this is to have subtle differences in the actual capabilities and methods, but vastly different philosophies of how they are used.

Maybe they simply do not have a social conscious of other races, they have no qualms about using plagues, phages and disease without hesitation and 'think of the children' mental blocks. They view all resources as recyclable and near unlimited in the greater galaxy and therefore are not as concerned with maintaining complex infrastructure in a single place. We have an unhealthy fascination with obsessive cataloging of all aspects of anything we encounter, but a galactic scale civilization should have very few surprises, the vong could have developed the attitude of 'been there done that, strip mine it and move on' not caring about the current state of a world, rather with what they can turn it into.

I actually believe the high mobility and lack of attachment to place is in the books. The only world they wanted to symbolically keep was coruscant, both because of the religious significance and the disruption it caused to the Republic in taking the historically ingrained capital. Every other world was as expendable as the other trillions of objects in the galaxy and nothing beyond momentary tactical needs was developed, just exploited.

hell I want to see them siphoning apart gas giants to convert to fuel, crushing moons and depopulating worlds. All things that are terrifying to the stagnent republic (which occasionally sees an Alderaan or Camaas) thinking about it, the precursor invasion could have been happening in the unknown regions of the galactic cluster for decades on uninhabited worlds orbiting dwarf stars that get probed once every 10 years by automated astrogation drones, while they build up the raw materials for invasion.

the stagnation of the republic has to be partly due to the 'everyone gets a chance to have a say, hippie hold hands and get along lets compromise' make the vong certain, determined on a cultural level to shape everything they touch. This will be terrifying to the average republic citizen who would be expecting a far off space battle, ceding of territory, fortification of the new regime and negotiations for spoils of war with minimal impact to the residents.
The internal struggle amongst the vong can be against the presumed certainty handed down by the higher castes.

[Darth Hoth]

Having read through the thread and making a general comment, my perhaps less than original contribution here basically comes down to "Pleeease, no biowank". That is just retarded - I mean, bugs tearing up neutronium? Magical comms telepathy-thingy berries that are grown in orchards and arbitrarily violate conservation of energy? Monomolecular-crystalline/forcefield morphing snakes instead of guns? Magical "manta-cloak" strap-on jellyfish that can mimic anything and beats sensors that scan retinas and bone and muscular structure? That is PokéMon-level suspension of disbelief. If anything should be kept of the Vong, it is their retarded culture and perhaps Force-immunity.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I am 100% with Hoth. I could take them being good at biotech where it matters, at least dedicating more time and attention to it than standard civilization does. And I don't think the nanowank is any better.

[evillejedi]

I think nanowank has to be constrained by the scope of nano scale engineering necessary to build almost everything in the normal galaxy. We know that the galaxy's engineers and manufacturers have to be immensely sophisticated to even produce the materials they need to achieve the fantastic capabilities, yields and purity that is observed. Many common day to day off the shelf devices require at least MEMs if not NEMs level machinery internally to operate in the volumes observed and all bulk construction materials have performance that is beyond simple chemistry and macroscale processing. At what point is it nano-wank as opposed to simply pervasive and transparent nanoengineering in every aspect of the galaxy's industrial capacity?

I am fully convinced that it is a conscious choice to not implement technologies already developed into certain applications and that is what makes the Vong different, Intent and Use, not capability.

[Darth Hoth]

I am 100% with Hoth. I could take them being good at biotech where it matters, at least dedicating more time and attention to it than standard civilization does. And I don't think the nanowank is any better.

Nanowank is actually somewhat better in my humble opinion, if not by a terrible stretch, as it is at least less obviously retarded. Though it does beg the question why galactic civilisation, which is apparently highly aware of nanites already, does not use them for the same feats.

I am with you, here; basically, the Vong should have roughly analogous tech; they might cloak it in mumbo jumbo terminology like the Imperium of Man or your average retarded fundie scifi culture, but by the end of the day, a turbolaser should still be one, even if it is called "Skypiercer", "Starlance", "Earthshaker", "God-Spear" or whatever, and techs should still, say, replace fried circuits, even if they chant hymns while they do so and think they are removing a sacrifice that was not accepted by the machine god or whatnots.

No, I like the idea of the Vong taking technology seriously, even if it conflicts with their beliefs. Was there not a hint of that in the canon NJO, even, with Czulkang Lah's talk of the need for understanding the enemy, even if one had to purify oneself on the painrack afterwards? Say, have technology being "unclean" but still used because the Gods forgive it if they sacrifice twelve drops of blood a day to water their divine garden. Or else just have tech as it stands but cloak it in fundiebabble per above.

[Admiral Felire]

I support the point of their technology being roughly equal or even slightly inferior than standard Galactic tech. At no point do I think it should be superior.

A Yuuzhan Vong Force-based Hyperdrive would work with the same speed and capability as a Galactic techno-based Hyperdrive. With the exception that one would require the utilization of either a Vong or a Force Sensitive to use. While the other could be used by anybody. I could see some Sith or Jedi using the Force-based technology (especially Sith) as a safety feature making it so the mundane population cannot use their technology. But it won't be something that the galaxy at large needs.

I don't have a problem with us using nanotech, though I don't see any difference between that and using the Force or even basic advanced organic tech. But that is just me.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I am with Hoth and Ire. Let's keep the Force out of it too, I've never thought the Force benefited from awkward technological applications (which begs the question why they can't reductionistically "crack" the problem of the Force scientifically, and its still cloaked in mystery and mysticism at times).

[Admiral Felire]

The Force cannot be cracked scientifically because it isn't based on science its magic and thus beyond the ability of science in this setting. I think that explanation makes perfect sense really when you consider the elements that went into the creation of Star Wars.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yet you're manipulating with engineering if it drives hyperdrives and inert machines.

[Admiral Felire]

The Force based hyperdrive probably functions through the use of either crystals or other such magic-aligned materials and then activated like one would activate a power. The organic-based Force Hyperdrive is pretty much a creature with a single Force power - the ability to send a ship into and out of hyperdrive as well as navigate and other such things. Despite them interfering with the real world, they are not doing it through wires, physics or the other such scientifically provable features.

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In addition, the Force can manipulate and energize machines and technology because the Force is beyond technology and is in fact all things and an energy source at the core of existence. Because of that a properly trained Force User could probably siphon some energy and place it into a battery or whatnot. Its the Force going into the battery based on activation of powers not the battery having the Force go into it.

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The Force is magic.

[Noble Ire]

The Force cannot be cracked scientifically because it isn't based on science its magic and thus beyond the ability of science in this setting. I think that explanation makes perfect sense really when you consider the elements that went into the creation of Star Wars.

All the more reason to keep it out of Vong technology. Quite frankly, I'd rather stick with the EU's biotics than replace them in favor of "Force-based" technology. The Force should be kept separate from overt issues of galactic power; it is far more suited, thematically and logically, for individual conflicts and perhaps the occasional Force-imbued artifact (and even that can get a little out of hand; the Rakatan Empire's Force-guided FTL was about as far as I'd like to see that go).

[Admiral Felire]

Noble Ire

My discussion of Force-based technology was to simply provide an explanation of why their organic technology would be so capable. Every creature they shaped would be pretty much Force Sensitive within a single particular area, and only that area.

But if we do not use that than that is fine, I was trying to figure out out to allow for organic technology to do what it does and yet still have it go beyond physics limit. And having it be a creature that uses the Force in one area would enable going beyond science. It would also explain the toughness and speed and other weapons capabilities of the Yuuzhan Vong.

And as far as I'm concerned, the Rakatan Empire's Force-guided FTL is canon and occurs so the thing that I am talking about - The Force interfering with technology - has occured and should be kept in mind. Not entirely for this point but in general in terms of capabilities of certain 'magic' artifacts and devices (like Sith Alchemy) that exist in Star Wars.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't want to keep the Rakata back story. I think its klunky and awkward. And I agree with Ire about no Force tech and awkward biotech.