EUFic General Fic Fluff and Background

[Vehrec]

I'd like to tie-down an oportunity to review and revise General Grevious and the Droid Armies as a Mercenary force, aligned against the Republic in general durring the Clone Wars, and the Jedi Order in specific. I'll post something more fleshed a bit later-but I want to try to get some ideas out there first.

Grevious could appear with a force of B-1s as a Trade Federation Rent-a-Droid in Episode 1, desired and feared for bringing forces laking life to the battlefield and completing the de-humanization of war. By episode 3, he's bought a much larger and more capable army, but is the most hunted life-form in the galaxy, in large part for killing many valient Jedi either in person or with his creations. He is probably either sith-trained or a Sith-afficianado when it comes to lightsaber combat, but his cyborg frame opens up whole worlds of options. Chemical weapons, grenades, blasters, vibro-daggers, and stolen lightsabers have all been weapons of his choice.

The reason Droid Armies are not generally welcome in the galaxy should obviously be their exceptional preformance against normal troops-they do not bleed, feel pain, and even dismembered they can fight on. A Droid Rebellion built around Battledroids that form a complete Combined Arms force, with a spacefleet for transportation and support, could be one of the most feared what-ifs in the galaxy. Grevious' cybernetic nature does less than assure many that he can be controled and as a result he only gets hired for the most desperate and pressing battles and commands a tremendous price for his intervention. He is never cheated out of his rightful pay, those who owe him want to discharge debts as fast as possible, without any waiting around.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There should be NO independent droid forces. If they are willing to chance independent droids, there's no reason for clones, and anyone who refuses to use droids is just an idiot. By avoiding fully-independent droid forces (instead regulating them to support, like the droid craft and droid units in Dark Empire and Dark Empire II), we avoid proposing that awkward question.

[Darth Hoth]

My objections to part of Illuminatus's rank table still stand (most prominently the Counter/Rear Admiral and Brigadier/ Brigadier General stuff).

[Czechmate]

(FOURTH DRAFT)

O-18: Supreme field command of His Imperial Majesty's Navy, Army, or Marines
O-17: Oversector Fleet/Oversector Army Command
O-16: Sector Fleet/Sector Army Command
O-15: High Fleet Group/High Systems Army Command
O-14: Fleet Group/Systems Army Command
O-13: Fleet Group Reaction Force/Systems Army Reaction Force Command
O-12: Numbered Fleet /Numbered Army Command
O-11: Task Force/Numbered Army Command
O-10: Task Group/Corps Command
O-9: Battlegroup/Legion Command
O-8: Line Squadron/Legion Staff Section Command
O-7: Line Warship/Regimental Command
O-6: Escort Warship/Regimental Staff Section Command
O-5: Picket Warship/Battallion Command
O-4: Warship Primary Department/Battallion Staff Section Command
O-3: Warship Secondary Department/Company Command
O-2: Warship Tertiary Department/Heavy Weapons Platoon Command
O-1: Warship Quaternary Department/Platoon Command

Intelligence omitted.

NAVY

Grand Admiral
Admiral of the Navy (special rank of the First Space Lord and Chief of Naval Operations [1SL/CNO])

O-18:
O-17:
O-16:Flag Admiral
O-15 Fleet Admiral
O-14 High Admiral
O-13 Admiral
O-12 Vice Admiral
O-11 Rear Admiral
O-10 Flotilla Admiral
O-9 Commodore
O-8 Line Captain
O-7 Captain
O-6 Commander
O-5 Lieutenant Commander
O-4 Senior Lieutenant
O-3 Lieutenant
O-2 Sub-lieutenant
O-1 Ensign
Officer Candidate Midshipman

CWO-5 Master Chief Warrant Officer
CWO-4 Senior Chief Warrant Officer
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer
WO-2 Able Warrant Officer
WO-1 Warrant Officer

Senior Enlisted Advisor Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy?

E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer
E-7 Chief Petty Officer
E-6 Petty Officer First Class
E-5 Petty Officer Second Class
E-4 Petty Officer Third Class
E-3 Able Spaceman
E-2 Spaceman Apprentice
E-1 Spaceman Recruit

ARMY

Surface/Field Marshal General?
Marshal General of the Armies (special rank of the Chief of the Imperial General Staff/Commander-in-chief of the Forces [CIGS/CINCFOR])

O-18:
O-17:
O-16:
O-15:
O-14 Surface/Field Marshal
O-13 High General
O-12 General
O-11 Lieutenant General
O-10 Major General
O-9 Brigadier General
O-8 High Colonel
O-7 Colonel
O-6 Lieutenant Colonel
O-5 Major
O-4 Sub-Major
O-3 Captain
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-1 Second Lieutenant
Officer Candidate Cadet

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer
WO-4 Warrant Officer 1c
WO-3 Warrant Officer 2c
WO-2 Warrant Officer 3c
WO-1 Warrant Officer 4c

Senior Enlisted Advisor Sergeant Major of the Army?

E-9 Sergeant Major
E-8 Master Sergeant
E-7 Sergeant First Class
E-6 Senior Sergeant
E-5 Sergeant
E-4 Corporal
E-3 Private First Class
E-2 Private
E-1 Private Recruit

MARINES (I've thought of giving them sort of their own rank system, based on Drakian cases and some of Marina O'leary's use, this is the most provisional; also considered using the French system: "General of [unit type]," etc.)

Captain General of the Marines of the Empire (special rank of the Commandant General Imperial Marines [CGIM])

O-18:
O-17:
O-16:
O-15:
O-14 General of Marines
O-13 High General
O-12 General
O-11 Lieutenant General
O-10 Major General
O-9 Brigadier General
O-8 High Colonel
O-7 Colonel
O-6 Lieutenant Colonel
O-5 High Major
O-4 Major
O-3 Captain
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-1 Second Lieutenant
Officer Candidate Midshipman

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer
WO-4 Warrant Officer 1c
WO-3 Warrant Officer 2c
WO-2 Warrant Officer 3c
WO-1 Warrant Officer 4c

Senior Enlisted Advisor Sergeant Major of the Marines?

E-9 Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant
E-8 Master Sergeant/First Sergeant
E-7 Gunnery Sergeant
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-5 Sergeant
E-4 Corporal
E-3 Lance Corporal (Replacing PFC)
E-2 Trooper/Private
E-1 Trooper/Private Recruit

[Vehrec]

There should be NO independent droid forces. If they are willing to chance independent droids, there's no reason for clones, and anyone who refuses to use droids is just an idiot. By avoiding fully-independent droid forces (instead regulating them to support, like the droid craft and droid units in Dark Empire and Dark Empire II), we avoid proposing that awkward question.

It's more a specific One Crazy General who doesn't care about the possible consequences which are SIGNIFICANT. He commisions designs to factories that can't say no, so its a unique formation. There should be plenty of good reasons to to use droids except as specialist units-but that doesn't mean that there can be crazies who ignore that for added killpower say. And it's not really an awkward question if the risk of having a warship wake up and decide not to kill people is non-zero.

My objections to the rank table are mostly a disatisfaction with too many prefixed ranks. It can have twenty ranks-but I'm getting fed up with most of the naval list being kinds of Lieutenant, and Admiral. Some more variety would go a long way to help it in general.

[Czechmate]

Lieutenants and Admirals are, perhaps, the most important ranks in the Imperial Navy. Lieutenants lead various kinds of essential departments aboard ship, and Admirals lead the various fleets of the Empire. Captains and Commanders of varying breed are only slightly less important. There is a reason for these ranks being what they are.

If you can suggest some good names, I'd be glad to consider them.

[Czechmate]

Additional information;

Responsibilities and Duties of Warrant Officers of the Republic and Imperial Navies (tentative);

Navy warrants are, historically (in our universe), specialists assigned as advisors to provide technical advice to officers and crews aboard ship where a given department may be lacking in experience in a specific issue. I have treated them the same here.

CWO-5: Specialist Advisor to officers of O-12 rank or higher
CWO-4: Specialist Advisor to officers of O-9 rank or higher
CWO-3: Specialist Advisor to officers of O-5 rank or higher
WO-2: Specialist Advisor to officers of O-1 rank or higher and specialist to supplement shipboard department officers and senior NCOs
WO-1 Specialist to supplement shipboard department officers and senior NCOs

Responsibilities and Duties of Warrant Officers of the Republic Grand Army and Imperial Army (tentative);

Army warrants are, historically (in our universe), specialists assigned to pilot support aircraft and provide training and maintenance for same. In the Grand Army and Imperial Army, I certianly believe they would make up the crews of LAATs and the like. I have extended this, in the case of the GAR and IA, to include the operation and maintenance of walkers and other complex ground vehicles like Juggernauts or Floating Fortresses.

CWO-5: Airspeeder and land-vehicle operations training warrant officer
WO-4: Leading airspeeder and land-vehicle command pilot or leading gunner
WO-3: Airspeeder and land-vehicle pilot or gunner
WO-2: Airspeeder and land-vehicle pilot or gunner or leading airspeeder and land-vehicle maintenance specialist
WO-1: Airspeeder and land-vehicle pilot or gunner or airspeeder and land-vehicle maintenance specialist

[Illuminatus Primus]

I object to the mention of 'in keeping with saxtonite scale' (could we try NOT to base everything we do on his opinion of the universe? this is our work, our project, not his), but otherwise approve heartily.

I disagree. There are quintillions of people in the galaxy, at least. There are billions of worlds. Even millions of Executors would most likely, never be seen.

I also agree with IP's point that there should be no independent droid armies. The galaxy already had a run-in millenia ago with Xim's army of war droids and as such they'll likely not be comfortable with the idea.

Yes, this is where I was going.

EDIT: I suggest IP's rank tables be contracted somewhat. Here is a proposed 'clipping' of some of his extraneous ranks. I have reduced all chains to 14 ranks before 'special' ranks; O-9 is uniformly the lowest 'flag officer' position in all branches; O-14 is uniformly the highest 'flag officer' position in all branches.

This leaves you with a pretty huge gap in command. The Empire has more Sector Groups than the U.S. Army has squads.

I believe that each officer rank's responsibility is as follows, based on various RL militaries and the NATO equivalencies as well as IP's suggestions;

O-14: Oversector Fleet/Oversector Army Command
O-13: Sector Fleet/Sector Army Command
O-12: Numbered Fleet/Systems Army Command
O-11: Task Force/Numbered Army Command
O-10: Task Group/Corps Command
O-9: Battlegroup/Legion Command
O-8: Line Squadron/Legion Staff Section Command
O-7: Line Warship/Regimental Command
O-6: Escort Warship/Regimental Staff Section Command
O-5: Picket Warship/Battallion Command
O-4: Warship Primary Department/Battallion Staff Section Command
O-3: Warship Secondary Department/Company Command
O-2: Warship Tertiary Department/Heavy Weapons Platoon Command
O-1: Warship Quaternary Department/Platoon Command

So the Galactic Empire has only three echelons of command exceeding the size of our modern armies? On the contrary, I've consulted with a Naval NCO discussing this, and we should stretch the ranking system. Comparatively speaking, in global terms an Imperial governor is a tiny and lonely bureaucracy, but locally speaking very powerful. The nature of such a large universe. Generals and Admirals should be Sector level officers, at minimum (I'd really prefer they were suprasectorial officers, but whatever). The high flag and general officer ranks should maintain parity with the senior ranks of the government. An Imperial field marshal should be in the command staff on Coruscant, he shouldn't be running around in the field. Ditto for the fleet admiral. Quite frankly, Imperial commodores and brigadiers/senior colonels should be powerful fleet and troop commanders. We need more staff officers and commodores to command field formations. They have quadrillions of troops, billions of ships (minimum).

Furthermore, we have more echelons than Oversector, and not all Sectors are formed into Oversectors. Further, your system completely ignores the other half of the colonial and defensive formations - the regions. And completely ignores the non-colonial service.

Please consult our reading list, particularly the in-house canon.

[Czechmate]

I was under the impression we had the Admiral of the Navy and his staff of O-10s to O-14s to make up Naval High Command?

If you do, however, wish to have ranks above Fleet Admiral in the O-X list, I'd love it if you'd suggest some ranks. Perhaps some of the following would be appropriate.

I will add four levels to the current army and navy organizations. Expect this later today.

Navy:
O-18: Warmaster of His Imperial Majesty('s Navy)
O-17: Senior Space Marshal Of Oversector (Name)
O-16: Space Marshal Of (Name) Sector
O-15: Senior Fleet Admiral

Army:
O-18: Warmaster of His Imperial Majesty('s Army)
O-17: Senior Commandant-General of Oversector (Name)
O-16: Commandant-General Of (Name) Sector
O-15: Senior Surface Marshal

Marines:
O-18: Warmaster of His Imperial Majesty('s Marines)
O-17: Senior Commandant-General of Oversector (Name)
O-16: Commandant-General Of (Name) Sector
O-15: Senior General of Marines

Intelligence I leave up to you.

[Czechmate]

*snipped*

[Darth Hoth]

With respect, those invented ranks appear clunky, and your structure still omits several levels of administration/organisation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No offense, but I think those ranks are wholly inappropriate. Please don't repost the entire list everytime we discuss them. Commandant general is an inappropriate title as it is already in use in military colonial governing districts. Not to mention why would it be senior to marshals? Intermediate ranks should be influxed into the heirarchy. We shouldn't bury FIELD MARSHALS and FLEET ADMIRALS under an invented hierarchy inconsistent with historical practice and continuity (we already have an Admiral of the Navy and Grand Admiral). Your system also still ignores regions and strategic formations.

What is wrong with Colonel General and Admiral General? They are German naval ranks?

And we're going to do something else with Brigadier and Counter Admiral (perhaps replaced with Hoth's Flotilla Admiral)? Hoth, any feelings?

What we need are more intermediate ranks, more commanders and lieutenant commanders to command ships from the lowly Corvette up to Eclipse, because a post captain should command the ships-of-the-line. We need more commodores and brigadiers/senior colonels/staff officers to command planetary armies and such, well below the level of general officer, which should be the ruling class of the military.

[Czechmate]

*snipped*

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think we should narrow our officer system down before trying to assign them units.

[Illuminatus Primus]

An acceptable senior rank to Fleet Admiral would be Flag Admiral - the proposed six-star of WW2 proposed as equivalent to General of the Armies (the Field Marshal would be followed by Field Marshal of the Armies in parallel to Fleet Admiral and Flag Admiral).

Oh, and Czechmate, you can just go back to the original list and edit it, and just post that you replaced it with a new draft, and we can go back and look at it, rather than cluttering the thread with repeated drafts.

[Czechmate]

With Flotilla Admiral shunted in at task group level and all ranks above pushed up a level, Flag Admiral is now in the Navy list at O-16; Sector Fleet command.

the Navy only requires O-17 and O-18, the other branches still need -15 through -18.

I'm at a loss for titles, but I wholly dislike such suggestions as 'Counter Admiral', 'Brigadier', 'Admiral General', and 'Colonel General'.

Hm. Might I suggest we put Grand Admiral in at O-18? That being a very rare rank, it is suitable for such a small fraternity of Grand Admirals.

O-17 I lack a suggestion for, given that it is the Oversector Fleet level of command. Perhaps we could put 'Commodore Of The List' in at O-10 and bump everything up another level, and add to our fluff the 'Flag List'; all admirals who have ever been or currently are flag officers commanding a Task Group of the Imperial Navy or better.

Addendum: the idea of a 'Commodore of the List' is directly ripped off of the very much British-themed Honor Harrington universe's 'Captain of the List'. it's just the right level of aristocratic snobbery to fit the Imperials; dividing men who have commanded fleet actions (or very large parts thereof) from those who've led mere squadrons or battlegroups of the Line.

[Czechmate]

According to Rattling The Saber, we have Fleet Admiral and High Admiral backwards. High should be senior to Fleet, as Fleet Admirals command Fleets whereas High Admirals command Sector Fleets;

"Using the sourcebook’s ranks, this would mean that each SECTGRU would
include one high admiral, six fleet admirals, 37 commodores/systems admirals, 72 admirals, and 360 captains of the line (each squadron commander
having one deputy commander and four subordinate line commanders). Using the corrected ranks, this would be one high admiral, six admirals or
fleet admirals, 37 rear admirals or vice admirals, 72 commodores, and 360 captains of the line."

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm at a loss for titles, but I wholly dislike such suggestions as 'Counter Admiral', 'Brigadier', 'Admiral General', and 'Colonel General'.

Why? I replaced Counter Admiral with Flotilla Admiral and Admiral General can be replaced by Fleet Vice Admiral. Colonel General is a completely fair rank, and one in use throughout military history. Bellyfeel is not a very strong argument.

Hm. Might I suggest we put Grand Admiral in at O-18? That being a very rare rank, it is suitable for such a small fraternity of Grand Admirals.

Its not part of the normal hierarchy.

O-17 I lack a suggestion for, given that it is the Oversector Fleet level of command. Perhaps we could put 'Commodore Of The List' in at O-10 and bump everything up another level, and add to our fluff the 'Flag List'; all admirals who have ever been or currently are flag officers commanding a Task Group of the Imperial Navy or better.

Addendum: the idea of a 'Commodore of the List' is directly ripped off of the very much British-themed Honor Harrington universe's 'Captain of the List'. it's just the right level of aristocratic snobbery to fit the Imperials; dividing men who have commanded fleet actions (or very large parts thereof) from those who've led mere squadrons or battlegroups of the Line.

I don't know. It feel inorganic and ahistorical. I'm going to wait Hoth's input.

According to Rattling The Saber, we have Fleet Admiral and High Admiral backwards. High should be senior to Fleet, as Fleet Admirals command Fleets whereas High Admirals command Sector Fleets;

"Using the sourcebook’s ranks, this would mean that each SECTGRU would
include one high admiral, six fleet admirals, 37 commodores/systems admirals, 72 admirals, and 360 captains of the line (each squadron commander
having one deputy commander and four subordinate line commanders). Using the corrected ranks, this would be one high admiral, six admirals or
fleet admirals, 37 rear admirals or vice admirals, 72 commodores, and 360 captains of the line."

The raison d'etre of the project is to fix the EU. High admiral is a stupid rank, but I'm willing to entertain the "high" prefix as a "senior" rank (e.g., high admirals are directly above admirals as high generals are directly above generals).

[Darth Hoth]

And we're going to do something else with Brigadier and Counter Admiral (perhaps replaced with Hoth's Flotilla Admiral)? Hoth, any feelings?

That was merely a first suggestion, but it does sound better. It is hard to find appropriate ranks when we need as many ranks as we do. Invent something new, "Group Admiral"?

I did a little more research on the Brigadier issue, and apparently there is a country that does use both the ranks of "Brigadier" and "Brigade General" - Mexico. That feels rather counterintuitive and confusing, though, and not in keeping with the German model we have mostly been using for the upper ranks thus far. An extra colonel rank, "Senior Colonel", between plain Colonel and High Colonel? Not the best solution, I know...

[Darth Hoth]

According to Rattling The Saber, we have Fleet Admiral and High Admiral backwards. High should be senior to Fleet, as Fleet Admirals command Fleets whereas High Admirals command Sector Fleets;

"Using the sourcebook’s ranks, this would mean that each SECTGRU would
include one high admiral, six fleet admirals, 37 commodores/systems admirals, 72 admirals, and 360 captains of the line (each squadron commander
having one deputy commander and four subordinate line commanders). Using the corrected ranks, this would be one high admiral, six admirals or
fleet admirals, 37 rear admirals or vice admirals, 72 commodores, and 360 captains of the line."

The raison d'etre of the project is to fix the EU. High admiral is a stupid rank, but I'm willing to entertain the "high" prefix as a "senior" rank (e.g., high admirals are directly above admirals as high generals are directly above generals).

Just to be clear, Publius's "Analysis" articles are a source on the existant canon (his interpretation of it, in certain cases). They are not part of our "in-house" canon for the project, merely a compilation of useful facts.

[Darth Hoth]

I'm at a loss for titles, but I wholly dislike such suggestions as 'Counter Admiral', 'Brigadier', 'Admiral General', and 'Colonel General'.

Why? I replaced Counter Admiral with Flotilla Admiral and Admiral General can be replaced by Fleet Vice Admiral. Colonel General is a completely fair rank, and one in use throughout military history. Bellyfeel is not a very strong argument.

Agreed; I think we should remain true to the German model. I also have no problem with General Admiral, although that one could perhaps be discussed. Why should it not be there, Czech? And what is wrong with Brigadier?

Hm. Might I suggest we put Grand Admiral in at O-18? That being a very rare rank, it is suitable for such a small fraternity of Grand Admirals.

Its not part of the normal hierarchy.

Assuming that I recall correctly, the Grand Admirals were plenipotentiaries of the throne outside the ordinary chain of command.

O-17 I lack a suggestion for, given that it is the Oversector Fleet level of command. Perhaps we could put 'Commodore Of The List' in at O-10 and bump everything up another level, and add to our fluff the 'Flag List'; all admirals who have ever been or currently are flag officers commanding a Task Group of the Imperial Navy or better.

Addendum: the idea of a 'Commodore of the List' is directly ripped off of the very much British-themed Honor Harrington universe's 'Captain of the List'. it's just the right level of aristocratic snobbery to fit the Imperials; dividing men who have commanded fleet actions (or very large parts thereof) from those who've led mere squadrons or battlegroups of the Line.

I don't know. It feel inorganic and ahistorical. I'm going to wait Hoth's input.

I am unfamiliar with that universe; what would the etymology and significance of such a rank be?

[Czechmate]

'Brigadier' is needlessly redundant, as the Army and Marines already have a 'Brigadier General' rank commonly referred to as 'Brigadier'. General Admiral is a confusing mashup of the senior ranks of two branches; is it an admiral who's also a general, or a general who's also an admiral?

The significance of the Flag List would be, broadly speaking, a defining point in an officer's career. Ascendancy to the rank of Commodore of the List would effectively guarantee your later promotion to higher flag rank during your Navy career. prior to this point, the highest rank you are sure to achieve is merely a regular Commodore. The vast majority of officers, understandably, would end their careers at Commodore or lower. The Empire only needs so many Admirals.

[Illuminatus Primus]

'Brigadier' is needlessly redundant, as the Army and Marines already have a 'Brigadier General' rank commonly referred to as 'Brigadier'. General Admiral is a confusing mashup of the senior ranks of two branches; is it an admiral who's also a general, or a general who's also an admiral?

Brigadiers are senior colonels. Brigadier Generals are junior general officers. Not the same thing. And Brigadier Generals are NOT called Brigadiers (that would imply they're not general officers). And Generaladmiral or Admiral General does not mean "Admiral-General". It means "Admiral, Generally" in the same sense of the meaning of "Director General" or "Attorney General." "General" itself is a contraction of "Captain General"; "Major General" a contraction of "Sergeant Major General", etc.

The significance of the Flag List would be, broadly speaking, a defining point in an officer's career. Ascendancy to the rank of Commodore of the List would effectively guarantee your later promotion to higher flag rank during your Navy career. prior to this point, the highest rank you are sure to achieve is merely a regular Commodore. The vast majority of officers, understandably, would end their careers at Commodore or lower. The Empire only needs so many Admirals.

I'll consider it.

[Darth Hoth]

'Brigadier' is needlessly redundant, as the Army and Marines already have a 'Brigadier General' rank commonly referred to as 'Brigadier'.

Oh, then I am with you; I too noticed that problem.

General Admiral is a confusing mashup of the senior ranks of two branches; is it an admiral who's also a general, or a general who's also an admiral?

This is a matter of etymology. "General" was originally a modifier (like the phrase "in general"), used in ranks such as "Captain General" (the term that later got shortened to simply "General"), which was used to denote the senior Captain in a medieval army, who commanded the Army in addition to his own company - a general commander, or overall commander, if you like. All other general officer ranks are derived per the same model. The same is true of General Admiral - it means just that, overall admiral above other admirals. It is no "mashup".

Wiki on General Admirals

The significance of the Flag List would be, broadly speaking, a defining point in an officer's career. Ascendancy to the rank of Commodore of the List would effectively guarantee your later promotion to higher flag rank during your Navy career. prior to this point, the highest rank you are sure to achieve is merely a regular Commodore. The vast majority of officers, understandably, would end their careers at Commodore or lower. The Empire only needs so many Admirals.

So, it denotes a senior rank of Commodore, and refers to the promotion list - ListComs are effectively admirals-to-be?

[Darth Hoth]

Hm, once again you post an answer before me, rendering mine redundant. I shall have to learn to type quicker.