World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

UF: Stories written by users, both fanfics and original.

Moderator: LadyTevar

westrim
Youngling
Posts: 70
Joined: 2010-02-19 01:21pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by westrim »

declan wrote:For those who don't know what the Flail is http://imagineddesires.com I posted three pictures on my site, from a world war 2 English tank. Their purpose was , to beat the ground ahead of the tank and detonate any landmine that had been placed.
Mine flail is a pretty self explanatory name; if you could explain what in the name of the deceased Yahweh this means, I'd be grateful.
I doubt that any general is going to commit that many hulls to carry the zippo, so your going to end up with a mixture of gunsels and zippos and taxi's.
Seriously, you explained mine flail but used these terms?
My thought was that zombie's would have no tactics, straight forward lurching to what ever, food, brains, I don't know. In open ground, artillery would probably be the option to go with, but again, the M1 Abrams only has 40 or so rounds of ammunition for the 120. What do you go with sabot ? heat,hesh, splat.

Clearing out urban infestations, your probably going be down to melee fighting anyways. I can see just leveling some cities, but on the east coast I don't see the army razing historic towns or writing off industrial infrastructure. Chain saws and buzz saws on the tanks, I'm not really wedded to that idea, too much looking at 40k book covers. But one of those flail things smacking you on the head, and your looking at broken skulls, in theory it provides the mobility kill, while the tank rolls over bodies
None of that gave a reason to use flails. A 60 ton tank is a lot more effective than flails- there's no guarantee you'll actually get head splitting force an effective percentage of the time. And when said tank is following directly behind the flails it just renders it pointless.

Using flamethrowers on active zombies has all sorts of issues, not least that it's going to take a while for it to actually kill, during which the zombie will continue to stumble around and be on fire. Rather bad in an urban environment, and not exactly optimal out in nature. Brooks goes into detail on this in both books and why it's pretty much good only for trenches and cleanup.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Simon_Jester »

declan wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Why bother? The flamethrower is marginally more effective but is going to have less than 10% of the range.
Mainly because the Bradley carrys 300 ready rounds of ammo for the 25mm and a variety of other ammo types for the 50 and 30 cal. For zombie stomping, does range really mean all that much ? I doubt that any general is going to commit that many hulls to carry the zippo, so your going to end up with a mixture of gunsels and zippos and taxi's.

It really seemed more like an easy add on force multiplier.
For defeating hordes of zombies, range is great, because you can kill any number of zombies if you start from far enough away and have a good enough rate of fire. As far as ammunition is concerned, remember that flamethrowers burn through their ammo pretty quick too; they're not designed for sustained fire over a period of minutes or anything.

I could see a few flamethrower vehicles for battlefield cleanup (great way to dispose of zombie bodies), but they're just not that helpful in close combat, especially since they destroy structures you'd rather retake. House to house fighting against zombies is simpler in that you're likely to be able to lure the zombies out into the kill zone of your guns, which you cannot do with human infantry. That makes it much more viable to retake buildings intact.
For those who dont know what the Flail is http://imagineddesires.com I posted three pictures on my site, from a world war 2 english tank. Their purpose was , to beat the ground ahead of the tank and detonate any landmine that had been placed. I work in a tier 3 auto factory
and the chain links on the pictures are approximately the same size as our 10k chains for the crane ( for lifting steel coils).
I know exactly what a mine flail is. I just don't think there's any sane reason to put one of the damn things on a tank if you aren't clearing mines. Zombies aren't going to walk into the flail unless they see something edible, and they won't recognize the tank as a food source (and rightly so). You'd basically have to find a crowd of zombies in the open and drive the tank into them (splashing infected body fluids everywhere). If you found such a crowd, why not just hose them down with a hull-mounted MG?
Clearing out urban infestations, your probably going be down to melee fighting anyways. I can see just leveling some citys, but on the east coast i dont see the army razing historic towns or writing off industrial infrastructure. Chain saws and buzz saws on the tanks, I'm not really wedded to that idea, too much looking at 40k book covers. But one of those flail things smacking you on the head, and your looking at broken skulls, in theory it provides the mobility kill, while the tank rolls over bodies
Yes, but mine flails also add a huge weight and visibility penalty, reducing the tank's performance and fuel economy without making it that much more lethal. I mean, a mine flail pretty much masks the firepower of any hull-mounted machine gun, which can be just as deadly... from five hundred meters away compared to the flail's two or three.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

Quick update, I'm working on the rewrite of the original post, but I'm on holiday in the Bahamas, so time has been limited. I'll post it when I get home :D.
westrim
Youngling
Posts: 70
Joined: 2010-02-19 01:21pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by westrim »

Arachnidus wrote:Quick update, I'm working on the rewrite of the original post, but I'm on holiday in the Bahamas, so time has been limited. I'll post it when I get home :D.

Oh, you're stuck in the Bahama's, I'm sooooo sorry. :evil: Lucky bastard. Enjoy the sun and the water, and I order you to do no typing while you are there. Have fun! :wink: :finger:
Michael Garrity
Youngling
Posts: 80
Joined: 2007-12-04 11:18pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Michael Garrity »

Greetings, all:

If I was going to choose an anti-zombie weapon (for use in a Yonkers-type battle, etc), I'd go with a water-cooled machine gun. As long as the ammo and coolant hold out, you can keep firing without harm to the weapon. This was proved by John M. Browning in the early 20th century, when he did a test of his water-cooled .30-caliber design. The weapon was set up to have an unlimited supply of circulating water, and a crap-load of ammunition.
The ammo ran out 48 minutes later....... :)
Now, consider the effect of a water-cooled .30-caliber mini-gun, or of the GAU-19 (a .50-caliber version). A .50-caliber round that hits a human body will literally cause the body to explode due to hydrostatic shock..

Mike Garrity
declan
Youngling
Posts: 74
Joined: 2008-03-18 03:00am

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by declan »

westrim wrote:
declan wrote:For those who don't know what the Flail is http://imagineddesires.com I posted three pictures on my site, from a world war 2 English tank. Their purpose was , to beat the ground ahead of the tank and detonate any landmine that had been placed.
Mine flail is a pretty self explanatory name; if you could explain what in the name of the deceased Yahweh this means, I'd be grateful.
If you bolded something, I dont see it, so I cant explain what you wanted clarification on

westrim wrote:
declan wrote:
I doubt that any general is going to commit that many hulls to carry the zippo, so your going to end up with a mixture of gunsels and zippos and taxi's.
Seriously, you explained mine flail but used these terms?

Gunsel is short for gunslinger, basically the M2 Bradley with the 25 mm bushmaster, 50 cal and 30 cal as well as the two tow missiles and 5 in storage

Zippo was a term from world war 2, for a tank with the flame thrower attachment

Taxi was simply the brad that carrys 6 ? dismounts


westrim wrote:None of that gave a reason to use flails. A 60 ton tank is a lot more effective than flails- there's no guarantee you'll actually get head splitting force an effective percentage of the time. And when said tank is following directly behind the flails it just renders it pointless.

Using flamethrowers on active zombies has all sorts of issues, not least that it's going to take a while for it to actually kill, during which the zombie will continue to stumble around and be on fire. Rather bad in an urban environment, and not exactly optimal out in nature. Brooks goes into detail on this in both books and why it's pretty much good only for trenches and cleanup.
I was really envisioning on the east coast that there could be 50 million possible infected, and trying to phicture one million zombies lurching towards me. The range and rates of fire mentioned elseware, I can live with 10 to 20 k zombies being taken out with the 25mm and such.
Now for the other 900 K + zombies that are still lurching your way.

Realistically , I would expect that the combat engineers and artillery would be the ones that take the lead, bring a bunch of zombies inside the killbox and then loose a battery of MLRS. Repeat as needed.

Declan
declan
Youngling
Posts: 74
Joined: 2008-03-18 03:00am

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by declan »

Simon_Jester wrote:I know exactly what a mine flail is. I just don't think there's any sane reason to put one of the damn things on a tank if you aren't clearing mines. Zombies aren't going to walk into the flail unless they see something edible, and they won't recognize the tank as a food source (and rightly so). You'd basically have to find a crowd of zombies in the open and drive the tank into them (splashing infected body fluids everywhere). If you found such a crowd, why not just hose them down with a hull-mounted MG?

I figured you knew what it was, but I dont know how many other people on the board reading the thread knew what it was, so I added the pics for reference.

Declan
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

westrim wrote:
Arachnidus wrote:Quick update, I'm working on the rewrite of the original post, but I'm on holiday in the Bahamas, so time has been limited. I'll post it when I get home :D.

Oh, you're stuck in the Bahama's, I'm sooooo sorry. :evil: Lucky bastard. Enjoy the sun and the water, and I order you to do no typing while you are there. Have fun! :wink: :finger:
Haha, don't worry, I'm too busy basking in the sun and the disturbingly high density of hot chicks to focus on the escapades of the undead. However, I do have a few ideas mocked up on my Kindle :D. I promise you all, I'm taking all of your feedback fully and am altering the OP to make a much more sensible version of Yonkers, while retaining the epic-ness.
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

MAJOR EDIT :twisted: .
August 3rd, 2013; Cheyenne Mountain Complex
President Barack Obama sat uncomfortably in his chair at the CMC. He wondered if anybody was comfortable anymore, given the circumstances. When he first ran for President of the United States in 2008, he hardly expected to be in this position. What President could? What man could? On today of all days, President Obama realized that he would go down in history as the leader of an America on the verge of collapse. It had been two years since the first infected were identified by Chinese military officers in a small village that probably didn't exist anymore. Barack wasn't informed of this until late 2011, when a nervous Director Panetta of the CIA walked into a meeting with the joint chiefs and gave them the news flat out. There was a virus that had only been encountered before in such numbers that the CDC didn't even think it was real. And it essentially created zombies. The director didn't say that exactly, but when he began showing videos of the infected, the president knew that's what everyone was thinking.

Two years later, and that horrifying thought was an even worse reality. Many postulated as to why the President's hair had gone gray in those few months. Little did they know, the burdens of command now included the knowledge that the dead were rising to feast on the living. As such, on July 5th, under a veil of secrecy, the first family and a majority of the essential White House staff was evacuated to Cheyenne Mountain, far away from the swarms. This was only a pitstop on the road to Hawaii, where the planned new capital was to be established. All these thoughts had raced through the President's mind, but it had only been a few seconds. Across the war room was General George Casey, the Joint Chief of the Army, Joe Biden, still up as Vice President after all this time, and the rest of the cabinet. They sat here to discuss what was unfolding in Yonkers. After everyone sat down, he stood and addressed the group.

"Good afternoon, everyone. I'm sure you've all been briefed about the course of the battle in Yonkers?" the President said, his cool attitude held perfectly. Around the room, solemn nods acknowledged the commander in chief. "Then you all know we're in trouble. General Casey, if you will?". With the motion, the president sat and the general rose. He pressed a button on a remote and a project on the table turned on and displayed a computer desk top. The group looked at the display, and, seeing nothing of interest, turned back to the general.

"Secretaries, Joint Chiefs, Mister President, today I'm tasked with giving you the worst news you'll hear for a long time. As you all know, yesterday the Yonkers plan, named Operation Return, was enacted. At two AM, combined Army, Marine and Airforce units were deployed into Yonkers, New York, along the Saw Mill River Parkway. Defensive positions were set up and our infantry and mechanized units began to dig in, as did on-site press. Miles away, two flights of F35s were scrambled to arrive after daybreak-". The general paused and pressed another button on the remote. UAV video showed what looked like a well prepared combat group assembling on the parkway and in the surrounding suburban terrain.

"After dawn, the entire force was set up and the horde reached the battlements". The UAV footage blinked out to show images of what looked like a group of shambling humans advancing on the frontline. At a glance, the President mentally remarked that there must have been at least three hundred of them. "After a bit of scouting, the individuals were confirmed to be infected. At six-oh-seven AM, eastern standard time, MLRS were fired at the oncoming combatants, to great effect." The images changed to show a scarred, but mostly cleared motorway. However, in the distance, one could easily see a solid wave that was undoubtedly the rest of the horde. "Two minutes later, the Paladins opened up on the approaching mass that you can all no doubt see. Several dozen of the undead were outright destroyed by the barrage. This was not enough. For some reason, the undead aren't affected by explosions as much as living beings are, something to do with their nervous systems being mostly nonfunctional. However, the explosions themselves did severe damage to a bulk of the force". The image changed again, this time showing a battered group of the undead getting ever closer to the barricades. "It was at this time, six-twenty-three AM, that the main battlegroup began firing." With that, the whole room donned a dark, worried mood.

"The techs are still working on salvaging data from the Global Hawk, it was damaged during the retreat, but we know most of the following situation." The chief began detailing all that happened during the course of the battle, with most of the room puzzled and absorbed in the speech. "Our boys held the line fairly well, but the amount of infected was much denser than expected. Eventually, all frontline infantry were forced to fall back into a safe zone closer to the center of the town, just off the highway. After six hours of static defense, orders were given to retreat into all negative pressure vehicles and a majority of the infantry made it. Around 6% didn't due to being cornered by the infected. Due to the massive swarm, all ground elements bunkered down while the on call Joint Strike Fighters deployed four MOABs. The horde was weakened just enough for all surviving units to make it out. At that point, Operation: Return was considered a failure." The room was now mostly stabilized, but everyone noticed the tension in each others faces. They'd all seen the news and most of the UAV footage, the battle went worse than the General described. What he said after affirmed that assumption.

"Twelve hours ago, we reestablished contact with the surviving forces. The JSFs had limited success and friendly fire was a big problem. Yonkers is overrun, as is most of the tristate area. We have growing swarms all over the east coast, and contained outbreaks in the west. Our military is unprepared to fight this battle. As of yesterday, the United States Army was routed. Morale was bad before the battle, it's worse now. We've got units going AWOL all over the damn place, and our boys just weren't trained, equipped or armed to fight this enemy."

The room was dead silent. Nobody dared say a word, even if anybody knew what to say. This went beyond bad. This was a total, complete cluster fuck like none before. Secretary Clinton looked up at the General and broke the silence.

"George, how bad were the casualties?" she said. She glanced at the President, and Barack could clearly see the fear in her eyes.

"Madam secretary, we're looking at 30% of the ground force KIA or MIA. Roughly 2000 confirmed civilian casualties from the surrounding area, over 15000 military casualties infantry wise, and we lost around 10 tanks to mechanical failure from the JSFs and the horde. The artillery units were abandoned when our men retreated." With every word, it seemed like the room became more dreadful. By the time the general was done speaking, everyone in the room had the same face; sullen and grim. Only the President and a few top ranking military officials held their poker faces up. Nobody had seen carnage like this before. There were so many war veterans in the room, but none of them had ever fought in a war where your enemy was already dead. In the back of the room, one of the President's aides vomited into a trash can and rushed out of the room. "And those are just the ones that we've been able to confirm. As I said, 30%. We sent a force of over 50,000 strong to secure the entire region. Most of those were concentrated around Yonkers. The final casualty report is due by tonight, but anywhere from 15000 and up MIA should be expected. The armored divisions took significantly less casualties, as I said, only 10 out of the 100 or so Abrams deployed were too damaged to be recovered, and the Bradleys are all intact, more or less."

"And the horde? How big is it?"

"Current estimates place the central mass at over 1.2 million undead, not counting outlying groups and most of the NYC swarm." More gasps . This was truly the darkest hour in recent history. "At this point, epidemiologists at the CDC are estimating somewhere between ten and thirteen million undead nation wide, and possibly upwards of 500 million on the entire planet. We cannot confirm the second figure due to a significant lack of intel since the first major outbreaks six months ago. The CIA is coordinating with MI6 to get a total scope of the situation, but no matter what it is, it will not be good."

With that final note, President Obama motioned to the general and he sat down. Once again, as the military fell the politician rose and Barack began his improvised speech.

"That's the situation, ladies and gentlemen. We are facing a disaster unmatched in human history. The Canadians have sealed their borders and there has been no contact with the Mexican government since last week. The United Kingdom has declared an utter state of emergency, and Israel is busy managing it's own outbreaks, which are significantly smaller since their self quarantine. For the past three days we've met in this room to come up with a back up plan. That plan involves abandoning more than half of this country to the undead, without protection or supplies."

Everyone bowed their heads, save Biden.

"Barry, we all know what this retreat means. And we all stand by it and you, even if it means selling our souls to the devil."

Obama looked at his first mate and nodded.

"Very well then."
Brooklyn, New York
Winston was 15, but he felt like he'd aged years since the first outbreak in the city. That was three months ago. And now, he sat in his living room, the door bolted shut, the staircase to his house demolished and replaced with a rope, and the windows covered. He didn't know where his parents were. His friends were upstairs looking for whatever water they could find and store. It all felt like some horrible dream. And now, the emergency broadcast system on most channels was replaced with the seal of the Office of the President. The seal disappeared, and on the screen, sat President Obama. He too, looked as if he had aged years, his hair turned mostly gray. What Winston heard next didn't scare him. It just reaffirmed what he and his friends knew; they were on their own now. Things didn't look good, but all they could do was hope to survive.

"My fellow Americans, today marks what may be the single worst disaster since Pearl Harbor, and the worst day in the history of the US armed forces. With the strategic failure of the armed forces in Yonkers last week, and reports of riots and outbreaks of the disease now known as Solanum rapidly encompassing the eastern portion of the United States, we have begun a massive retreat west. A defense line is being established along the Rocky Mountains going southwards towards the Mexican border, and we are reestablishing the government in Hawaii. To those of you left in your homes and shelters in the East, know this; you are not alone. We are going to come back for you. We are going to save you. We will televise updates as they are available, and the news channels still left will not be replaced with the Emergency Broadcast System. Remain calm, stay in your homes and reinforce them. Following this message, a list of symptoms of the virus, how it is passed on and a map of the nation showing the retreat will be displayed, and repeated for the next three hours. May god watch over all of us."
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Arachnidus wrote:"Two minutes later, the Paladins opened up on the approaching mass that you can all no doubt see. Several dozen of the undead were outright destroyed by the barrage. This was not enough. For some reason, the undead aren't affected by explosions as much as living beings are, something to do with their nervous systems being mostly nonfunctional. However, the explosions themselves did severe damage to a bulk of the force". The image changed again, this time showing a battered group of the undead getting ever closer to the barricades. "It was at this time, six-twenty-three AM, that the main battlegroup began firing." With that, the whole room donned a dark, worried mood.
Suggest altering this figure; it's out of line for the performance of heavy artillery against massed infantry in the open.
"The techs are still working on salvaging data from the Global Hawk, it was damaged during the retreat, but we know most of the following situation."
How?
The chief began detailing all that happened during the course of the battle, with most of the room puzzled and absorbed in the speech. "Our boys held the line fairly well, but the amount of infected was much denser than expected. Eventually, all frontline infantry were forced to fall back into a safe zone closer to the center of the town, just off the highway. After six hours of static defense, orders were given to retreat into all negative pressure vehicles and a majority of the infantry made it. Around 6% didn't due to being cornered by the infected. Due to the massive swarm, all ground elements bunkered down while the on call Joint Strike Fighters deployed four MOABs. The horde was weakened just enough for all surviving units to make it out. At that point, Operation: Return was considered a failure." The room was now mostly stabilized, but everyone noticed the tension in each others faces. They'd all seen the news and most of the UAV footage, the battle went worse than the General described. What he said after affirmed that assumption.
This is a better way to get the desired effect of Yonkers, with one catch...

The F-35 can't carry fuel-air bombs. They're too big, tipping the scales at 21000 pounds when the biggest bombs the F-35 can carry weigh 5000. They have to be shoved out the back of C-130 cargo planes. However, it's quite realistic for C-130s loaded with GBU-43s to be on call for this operation given the sheer size of the zombie horde; it's just that the F-35s would be dropping other bombs, such as the 2000-lb. JDAM.
"Madam secretary, we're looking at 30% of the ground force KIA or MIA. Roughly 2000 confirmed civilian casualties from the surrounding area, over 15000 military casualties infantry wise, and we lost around 10 tanks to mechanical failure from the JSFs and the horde. The artillery units were abandoned when our men retreated."
The artillery units are self-propelled guns; why would the men abandon them in a retreat when they can outrun zombies easily and started out miles away from the point of contact with the zombie forces?
"My fellow Americans, today marks what may be the single worst disaster since Pearl Harbor, and the worst day in the history of the US armed forces. With the strategic failure of the armed forces in Yonkers last week, and reports of riots and outbreaks of the disease now known as Solanum rapidly encompassing the eastern portion of the United States, we have begun a massive retreat west. A defense line is being established along the Rocky Mountains going southwards towards the Mexican border, and we are reestablishing the government in Hawaii. To those of you left in your homes and shelters in the East, know this; you are not alone. We are going to come back for you. We are going to save you. We will televise updates as they are available, and the news channels still left will not be replaced with the Emergency Broadcast System. Remain calm, stay in your homes and reinforce them. Following this message, a list of symptoms of the virus, how it is passed on and a map of the nation showing the retreat will be displayed, and repeated for the next three hours. May god watch over all of us."
As long as fuel reserves hold out (a pretty long time, I suspect; most oil production infrastructure is in remote areas zombies won't be making much trouble in and that are fairly easy to secure with riflemen and fences), you're liable to see evacuation efforts to pull civilians into the western defense zone. How many could plausibly be saved is an open question, of course, especially since the US is abandoning much of its breadbasket.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

Noted, Simon, I'll alter the figure ASAP. As for the Global Hawk getting pasted, the idea was that it was damaged during the bombing, and it was already suffering mechanical problems due to the nature of the situation(lack of engineers once the Great Panic started). Thanks for that info, I'll edit out the F35s...I always felt that they were somewhat overdone for Yonkers. As for the artillery, by the time the operators began retreating, the undead were already at the line. Considering that several hundred zombies were coming out at them, it's assumed they retreated with the rest of the main force, leaving the Paladins behind. I could always alter it to say a few made it out. Thanks for the feedback, man.
User avatar
D.Turtle
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1909
Joined: 2002-07-26 08:08am
Location: Bochum, Germany

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by D.Turtle »

The Global Hawk being damaged contributes nothing to the story and should just be left out.

If you want an even vaguely realistic scenario there should be hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of dead zombies, instead of the mere hundreds or thousands you had. Frankly, at the point where zombies have overrun New York, there should be enough information available that stuff like them being hard to kill, etc. should already be known. The focus should not be that the weapons were ineffective, but that there simply were too many zombies.

Have the MLRS ripping apart huge numbers of zombies, the fuel air bombs flattening the same, etc. And THEN simply have it not matter.

A lot more effective than any bullshit "our weapons don't work" angle.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Arachnidus wrote:Noted, Simon, I'll alter the figure ASAP. As for the Global Hawk getting pasted, the idea was that it was damaged during the bombing, and it was already suffering mechanical problems due to the nature of the situation(lack of engineers once the Great Panic started). Thanks for that info, I'll edit out the F35s...I always felt that they were somewhat overdone for Yonkers.
By 2013, we'll probably have enough F-35s that they're as logical a combat aircraft as any. It would be equally logical to use F-16s, though. Or a B-52, which could carry any bomb it wanted except a MOAB.
As for the artillery, by the time the operators began retreating, the undead were already at the line. Considering that several hundred zombies were coming out at them, it's assumed they retreated with the rest of the main force, leaving the Paladins behind. I could always alter it to say a few made it out. Thanks for the feedback, man.
The problem is that the Paladins have a minimum range as well as a maximum; you don't use them to shoot at targets five hundred meters away, especially not when your self-propelled howitzer is ten times faster than the zombies you're fighting.

There is NO logical reason why they should hang around until nearly overrun by zombies. If they did hang around, there is NO logical reason why their crews would abandon the security of their vehicles to make a sprint over to some other vehicle, abandoning their own guns in place while they still had fuel to run away with in their own vehicles.

Paladins are designed to be able to stop, fire off a few shells, and then run the fuck away before the enemy gets a fix on their position and starts shooting artillery back. They will have no problem at all playing "shoot and scoot" with a zombie horde until the ammo runs out or there's no one left to spot for them.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Arachnidus wrote:Noted, Simon, I'll alter the figure ASAP. As for the Global Hawk getting pasted, the idea was that it was damaged during the bombing, and it was already suffering mechanical problems due to the nature of the situation(lack of engineers once the Great Panic started). Thanks for that info, I'll edit out the F35s...I always felt that they were somewhat overdone for Yonkers.
By 2013, we'll probably have enough F-35s that they're as logical a combat aircraft as any. It would be equally logical to use F-16s, though. Or a B-52, which could carry any bomb it wanted except a MOAB.
As for the artillery, by the time the operators began retreating, the undead were already at the line. Considering that several hundred zombies were coming out at them, it's assumed they retreated with the rest of the main force, leaving the Paladins behind. I could always alter it to say a few made it out. Thanks for the feedback, man.
The problem is that the Paladins have a minimum range as well as a maximum; you don't use them to shoot at targets five hundred meters away, especially not when your self-propelled howitzer is ten times faster than the zombies you're fighting.

There is NO logical reason why they should hang around until nearly overrun by zombies. If they did hang around, there is NO logical reason why their crews would abandon the security of their vehicles to make a sprint over to some other vehicle, abandoning their own guns in place while they still had fuel to run away with in their own vehicles.

Paladins are designed to be able to stop, fire off a few shells, and then run the fuck away before the enemy gets a fix on their position and starts shooting artillery back. They will have no problem at all playing "shoot and scoot" with a zombie horde until the ammo runs out or there's no one left to spot for them.
Then by that, I'm going to begin major edit three. Once again, thanks for the feedback. I was working with World War Z's ideas and less in the real world, glad to have you guys to put a bit of sense in 8) .
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, even Brooks is smart enough to recognize that armored fighting vehicles are a deadly weapon against zombies, being very resistant to zombie attacks and very good at outrunning them. The key is to realize that for this purpose, a Paladin is an armored fighting vehicle.

Likewise, Brooks makes a big deal about staying in a safe position rather than charging out of your shelter. Well, if you're in a big freaking SP howitzer, that is your shelter, and you should no more leave it than you should leave your fortified house to go borrow a cup of sugar from the neighbors during a zombie outbreak.

Now, men serving towed guns like the M777, they might conceivably abandon their guns in place for want of the assets to move them in time. But self-propelled artillery would never do so.

As for the F-35s at Yonkers in the book... when Brooks wrote it, we expected to have more F-35s sooner than happened in real life. There have been a lot of delays and contradictions along the production line.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Consumerist
Redshirt
Posts: 5
Joined: 2010-06-24 12:00am

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Consumerist »

I also think that the whole gradual erosion of society combined with mass numbers would be a far more appealing alternative to the actual cause of defeat for the Battle of Yonkers.

Also if you are going to set this in 2013 then the Iran-Pakistan nuclear war probably should be omitted as I doubt Iran would have a large nuclear arsenal by then.
Slacker
Jedi Knight
Posts: 807
Joined: 2003-01-16 03:14am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Slacker »

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, even Brooks is smart enough to recognize that armored fighting vehicles are a deadly weapon against zombies, being very resistant to zombie attacks and very good at outrunning them. The key is to realize that for this purpose, a Paladin is an armored fighting vehicle.

Hell, for this purpose, a Stryker or even an up-armored humvee is an armored vehicle. I always wondered why they just didn't send the Abrams in to run everything over.
"I'm sorry, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that your inability to use the brain evolution granted you is any of my fucking concern."
"You. Stupid. Shit." Victor desperately wished he knew enough Japanese to curse properly. "Davions take alot of killing." -Grave Covenant
Founder of the Cult of Weber
justicar5
Redshirt
Posts: 12
Joined: 2010-07-07 10:01am

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by justicar5 »

Slacker wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Well, even Brooks is smart enough to recognize that armored fighting vehicles are a deadly weapon against zombies, being very resistant to zombie attacks and very good at outrunning them. The key is to realize that for this purpose, a Paladin is an armored fighting vehicle.

Hell, for this purpose, a Stryker or even an up-armored humvee is an armored vehicle. I always wondered why they just didn't send the Abrams in to run everything over.
or why they didn't just sit on the roof tops and engange with aimed shots. Serisouly. dig 'moats' around the buildings, take out the stairs and treat it as the worlds biggest zombie head shot practice range.
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

justicar5 wrote:
Slacker wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Well, even Brooks is smart enough to recognize that armored fighting vehicles are a deadly weapon against zombies, being very resistant to zombie attacks and very good at outrunning them. The key is to realize that for this purpose, a Paladin is an armored fighting vehicle.

Hell, for this purpose, a Stryker or even an up-armored humvee is an armored vehicle. I always wondered why they just didn't send the Abrams in to run everything over.
or why they didn't just sit on the roof tops and engange with aimed shots. Serisouly. dig 'moats' around the buildings, take out the stairs and treat it as the worlds biggest zombie head shot practice range.
At this point, the true nature of the undead wasn't really known, and a plan wasn't formulated. The idea of Yonkers was that human weaponry and technocentric tactics would overwhelm the undead. That didn't work that well.
User avatar
D.Turtle
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1909
Joined: 2002-07-26 08:08am
Location: Bochum, Germany

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by D.Turtle »

Except that is a bullshit reason. When they have overrun New York, you can be sure that the nature of the undead will be known well enough to know their strengths and weaknesses.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Arachnidus wrote:At this point, the true nature of the undead wasn't really known, and a plan wasn't formulated. The idea of Yonkers was that human weaponry and technocentric tactics would overwhelm the undead. That didn't work that well.
Thematically, that only works if the zombies are something special, well above and beyond what we already know how to handle... and a shambling mob of unarmored melee infantry doesn't qualify.

Again, zombies just shouldn't be a threat to armies en masse. They lack the brains or the firepower. They're far more dangerous as a form of wild animal problem, one that can spring out in the rear areas and attack at any time.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
justicar5
Redshirt
Posts: 12
Joined: 2010-07-07 10:01am

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by justicar5 »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Arachnidus wrote:At this point, the true nature of the undead wasn't really known, and a plan wasn't formulated. The idea of Yonkers was that human weaponry and technocentric tactics would overwhelm the undead. That didn't work that well.
Thematically, that only works if the zombies are something special, well above and beyond what we already know how to handle... and a shambling mob of unarmored melee infantry doesn't qualify.

Again, zombies just shouldn't be a threat to armies en masse. They lack the brains or the firepower. They're far more dangerous as a form of wild animal problem, one that can spring out in the rear areas and attack at any time.

tho the damage to morale of engaging massed 'civilians' who have no fear would be extreme, but something for the AAR not the battle itself.
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

Well, just as an update, I'm doing significant alterations to Yonkers to make the battle far more realistic, while keeping the "Defeat and utter destruction en mass" theme. I'm taking all of your feedback into consideration, particularly based on the idea that an army would generally defeat large swarms of undead.
User avatar
The Vortex Empire
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1586
Joined: 2006-12-11 09:44pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by The Vortex Empire »

Assuming that by "Defeat and utter destruction en mass" you mean the US military losing the battle, then it can't be realistic. There is literally no realistic way for it to be anything but a curbstomp in humanity's favor, barring all US equipment suddenly breaking down for no reason. (Not that that would be very realistic either)
User avatar
Arachnidus
Youngling
Posts: 100
Joined: 2010-07-12 09:11pm

Re: World War Z: The War Room (a short story+zombies)

Post by Arachnidus »

The Vortex Empire wrote:Assuming that by "Defeat and utter destruction en mass" you mean the US military losing the battle, then it can't be realistic. There is literally no realistic way for it to be anything but a curbstomp in humanity's favor, barring all US equipment suddenly breaking down for no reason. (Not that that would be very realistic either)
I'm revamping the battle as a whole. It's scale will still be the same, but the military force will be significantly altered.
Post Reply