Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[tim31]

Broomstick/Caesar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EdBecerra]

And to bring it back on-subject: the "corporation" of an undead GJC 's empire has to have almost every political leader on earth turning into insomniacs while popping antacids and muttering "oh shit, oh shit, oh shit."

And now that Stuart's answered the question about climate - anything tropical that can adapt to Hell's "sunlight" has just become a MAJOR export item. Like the diesel tree I mentioned earlier. Exporting diesel tree oil is a non-stop win - it burns cleaner, much cleaner than petroleum; yet at the same time, BECAUSE it's more organic, it tends to spoil, with a shelf life of three months. (It's organic enough that microbes can feed on it, you see..) That means your customers can't stockpile it, then try and force your prices down...

Caeser's got a real future in funding Nova Roma with tropical-type exports, if he so desires.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Belial, meet my good friends MOP and MOAB. They're here to rearrange your furniture with H6 (not to be confused with the H-6 bomber, although one or ten might knock on your door very soon).

Problem is, they already bombed Belials fortress and believe he's dead, and anyone who knows about Palelabor is already INSIDE the fortress. Right?

Wait, have they bombed it yet?

They know Belial isn't dead yet. Recall when Belial's above-ground fortress was blasted and Memnon and the undead Special Ops team observed part of Belial's retinue engaged in an organized retreat from the palace.

Right, but that wasn't Belial, and they weren't going to Palelabor.

[Darth Ruinus]

Okay, now this is just outright SCARY. Caesar on the loose

No it's not. There isn't really anything Caesar can do now, he'd just by another would-be dictator, unless of course, we would want him in power, and from the sounds in the story, I don't think we do.

The man took a republic and turned it into an empire that lasted centuries, I shudder to think of what he can do with an indefinite life span, loyal troops, and at least a few modern human dead who can help him design reasonably modern weapons.

Except it wouldn't work, because he did that a long time ago, and now he is surrounded by world superpowers who can piss all over Rome or whatever new nation he wants in a heartbeat. Plus, no one is going to let him do this kind of shit anyways.

[EdBecerra]

Except it wouldn't work, because he did that a long time ago, and now he is surrounded by world superpowers who can piss all over Rome or whatever new nation he wants in a heartbeat. Plus, no one is going to let him do this kind of shit anyways.

And exactly WHY would they stop him?

As long as he restricts himself to more-or-less legal methods of political advancement, the world powers can't really do anything about it Not without calling the legitimacy of their OWN rule into question.

ie, if it's "legal" for the US government to do something, then it's "legal" for Caesar. He's the leader of a de-facto nation, albeit one of the dead, and his authority is no less and no more legal than that of any... oh, Central or South American nation, to use a cheap and quick example.

Venezuela, for example - Hugo Chavez is being a pain in the arse of the US, but the American government hasn't invaded the nation, or assassinated him, nor have they (openly) interfered in the way he's chosen to rule. (Granted, there may be more than a little of the old CIA dirty tricks squad in the background, but I'd like to think those idiots learned their lesson with the Bay of Pigs disaster and those moronic "Let's poison Fidel's cigars!" stunts.)

So, Chavez is the ruler of a sovereign nation, and even if we don't like it, we are obligated to accept it, unless we want to contest it on the field of battle AND risk being shunned by other small nations who will band together out of fear that we might come for them next. All things have a political cost, and that's just one of the minor dangers that result when you start playing the "My sovereignty's more politically legitimate and valid than YOUR sovereignty!"

And if Caesar starts to expand, as long as he does it in traditional, accepted ways, where's our room to complain? If former Roman citizens now in Hell flock to his banner, acclaiming him as their leader, we're supposed to tell them no, they belong to America (or the UK, or Russia or China) now whether they like it or not? If a province full of demon villages that we've just freed from Satan VOTES to become a province of Nova Roma, who are we to tell them no? What, we allow them to choose, but only from choices we've pre-approved?

Dangerous slope that.

Ed.

EDIT: Damn, now I'm sanely (relatively speaking) discussing realpolitik. Quick, someone tell the doctors, I must be ill.

[Sidewinder]

Problem is, they already bombed Belials fortress and believe he's dead, and anyone who knows about Palelabor is already INSIDE the fortress. Right?

“So its all over Sir.”

“No way. Our guess is that at least some lords will repudiate Abigor’s lead and try to carry on. Belial is the leading candidate, he must understand we want his guts torn out. But, as far as organized resistance is concerned, that’s over. Just try and make sure that none of your people are the last to die.”

We may not know about Palelabor, but we have reason to believe Belial is alive.

Then again, it would be nice to recreate the art of making Tartar Candles.

What's a Tartar candle? The form of execution where you put a person in front of a cannon, tie his/her limbs to the barrel, and then fire the cannon?

[EdBecerra]

What's a Tartar candle? The form of execution where you put a person in front of a cannon, tie his/her limbs to the barrel, and then fire the cannon?

If you do that to a priest, does that make him a "cannonized" martyr?

Ed.

[Darth Ruinus]

ie, if it's "legal" for the US government to do something, then it's "legal" for Caesar. He's the leader of a de-facto nation, albeit one of the dead, and his authority is no less and no more legal than that of any... oh, Central or South American nation, to use a cheap and quick example.

Except he is the leader who has already been succeeded by lots of people who are also long dead, and leader of an empire that is no longer existant. He no longer is legally a leader of anything.

Hugo Chavez was democratically elected (unless there is some shit going on that I don't know about.)

Of course, he could make up a new legal place, but I doubt its gonna be as "OMG SCARY" as you made it out to be.

[Peptuck]

Okay, now this is just outright SCARY. Caesar on the loose

No it's not. There isn't really anything Caesar can do now, he'd just by another would-be dictator, unless of course, we would want him in power, and from the sounds in the story, I don't think we do.

The man took a republic and turned it into an empire that lasted centuries, I shudder to think of what he can do with an indefinite life span, loyal troops, and at least a few modern human dead who can help him design reasonably modern weapons.

Except it wouldn't work, because he did that a long time ago, and now he is surrounded by world superpowers who can piss all over Rome or whatever new nation he wants in a heartbeat. Plus, no one is going to let him do this kind of shit anyways.

Except Kim's already pointed out to him that if he acts decisively, the politicians back on Earth likely won't do anything about it. they're scrambling just to keep afloat with all the changes down there, and they'd welcome any stabilizing influence they can get, including Ceaser.

[Darth Ruinus]

Yeah, he could try to do something, but I'm having problems thinking its gonna be a permament solution, that, and I was mainly responding to his "now thats SCARY, Caesar on the loose!" thing, pointing out that it wont be as bad or as scary as he made it out to be. At best, he's gonna have a small nation under his control, since he can't offer anyone anything the superpowers cant already offer. Except we can do it better, faster and much more reliably than he can.

I mean seriously, what does he have that would make anyone join him over us?

[Fyrwulf]

Question. Isn't what Kim is doing technically treason?

[EdBecerra]

Yeah, he could try to do something, but I'm having problems thinking its gonna be a permanent solution, that, and I was mainly responding to his "now thats SCARY, Caesar on the loose!" thing, pointing out that it wont be as bad or as scary as he made it out to be. At best, he's gonna have a small nation under his control, since he can't offer anyone anything the superpowers cant already offer. Except we can do it better, faster and much more reliably than he can.

I mean seriously, what does he have that would make anyone join him over us?

He's Julius Caesar. That's all you need.

His own enemies felt the only way they could/would win against him was by betrayal and a knife in the back.

There are just certain humans in history who are so badass, they trump everything. When they take to the field, anyone sensible says "Well, we're beaten in advance, we might as well concede now, go on home, and avoid getting bruised. Fighting (him/her/it) will just end in humiliation for us."

That's why they are in the history books - they make the history.

Caesar's one, Alexander the Great is another, Genghis Khan's another... they don't have to be good or evil, though many of them do take sides. Their most important attribute is that, by comparison, they make the rest of the human race look like third-raters. IF we're lucky. Tenth-raters if we're not.

Politics, war, hell, even chess has these types. You can fight them if you want, but your odds are long, and even Jimmy the Greek wouldn't take any bets on you winning against these sorts.

Like the lyrics to the song...

"He always runs while others walk
He acts while other men just talk.
He looks at this world, and wants it all..."

Crossing those sort of people isn't smart. If you run into one of them and walk away with your life, you should consider yourself lucky.

We're the cannon fodder to their "Men of Destiny." That really sucks at times. But even cannon fodder can be smart enough to see a storm coming, and duck.

Ed.

[Darth Ruinus]

He's Julius Caesar. That's all you need.

So suddenly just being famous is going to make you follow a man who, at best, can only offer legionaires (sp?) armed with a few guns, over all the industrialized nations of the world? That's just stupid.

Anyways, I don't think this is the place for such discussions, (there's a thread about this very thing in the Senate place) so I am not giong to continue this here. It's just cluttering up the space.

Anyways, great chapter as always, and I eagerly await the next installments.

[EdBecerra]

Question. Isn't what Kim is doing technically treason?

Ah.

Bugger.

I was going to snap off a quick answer of "yes", but then I realized -- she's dead.

The legal system doesn't EVEN begin to cover the question of "Do my legal obligations end when my earthly body's taking a dirt nap?"

The Uniform Code of Military Justice must be going into convulsions by now. I bet the JAG types are having fits with the very concept. I can envision lawyers twitching in nervous fits...

What DO you do with the loyalties and baggage you've left behind on Earth?

For that matter, what about your BODY?

I mean, damn, how creepy would it be to meet your family (who've just flown to Hell, courtesy of Expedia.com), and they thrust a little urn into your hands.

"Hi, son, here's your earthly remains, we think it belongs to you..."

*shudder*

Gaaah.

Ed.

[Darth Ruinus]

I was going to snap off a quick answer of "yes", but then I realized -- she's dead.

The legal system doesn't EVEN begin to cover the question of "Do my legal obligations end when my earthly body's taking a dirt nap?"

She's still in the military. IIRC, she was even promoted while dead, so yes, she is still legally bound by military rules and such.

[EdBecerra]

He's Julius Caesar. That's all you need.

So suddenly just being famous is going to make you follow a man who, at best, can only offer legionaires (sp?) armed with a few guns, over all the industrialized nations of the world? That's just stupid.

That depends on how you define power. I honestly believe that if you dropped a still-living Julius Caesar into the 20th century, and allowed him several years to educate himself as to how the modern world works, ten years after that, he'd be ruling at least one nation and possibly more *without* (visibly) breaking any international laws. He'd simply out-think and out-politic most current world leaders. Not ALL of them, but most.

He wasn't good because he was famous, he was famous because he was that GOOD. Think of it as being like the Olympics. He's an Olympic class political type. Just as weekend athletes have no chance against an Olympian, most politicians would have no chance against him.

We should be grateful that such people are so (relatively) few and far between - and Hell will be responsible for their comebacks.

A comedic example?

Elvis is down there. The King of Rock and Roll. Let's say he decides to get back into the music business. There are a lot of musicians who'll give up and give in, because they believe they stand no chance against the King trying to take his "throne" back. Not ALL of them, but a lot.

Alan Turing's down there. A lot of people in IT consider him a minor deity. THAT'S going to cause shudders throughout IT society. Minor ones, but still...

The best of the Best of the BEST. A very small minority in terms of numbers, an incredibly powerful minority as far as history is concerned.

We live through history. They MADE history. They're the movers and shakers, we're just passengers.

That's enough to make me cautious.

[EdBecerra]

She's still in the military. IIRC, she was even promoted while dead, so yes, she is still legally bound by military rules and such.

Point.

But was that promotion legal? Did the US military have the authority to promote a dead person to a rank in the Army? Who takes responsibility? Who authorized it? Is it even constitutional? Has the US court system weighed in on this?

Or was it merely a case of "We're making this up as we go along, and we'll legalize it retroactively after the war is over"?

That's happened a few times before, historically speaking, and sometimes it blew up in our faces, sometimes it didn't.

Granted, it's a state of war and an emergency, so people may have thought that the war has to come first, and everything else second. That too has happened before.

Just never this BIG a war or emergency...

[Edward Yee]

I thought there was discussion in the thread that there are no "great men," only those in the right place and the right time? (Or arguably, who made the right moves.) Caesar certainly has the reputation which may get many to preemptively give in like Ed said (if he sticks around, I'm keeping this up), and the assistance of a technically-still-a-Nightstalker... who's only sleeping with a potential future enemy. The "crossing the Rubicon" moment will be what happens when someone either isn't impressed or actually sees through him and recognizes "a man who, at best, can only offer legionaires (sp?) armed with a few guns."

By the way, I've been meeting to post my reaction to this...

From the previous chapter (I've been busy this week...):

This struck me as sounding pretty good for a back of the book paragraph:

Abigor nodded and raised his voice. “Satan is dead. Humans killed him with their weapons. With their weapons, not with magic for magic and superstition is powerless in the face of human science. We are powerless in the face of human engineering. They have won this war and nothing we say or do can change that. Hell is changed forever and nothing we can do will change that either. The humans have told me they wish me to be the new leader in Hell, answerable only to them. I have agreed. If you do not like the idea of me as your leader, don’t tell me.” Abigor gestured at the Marines and their vehicles. “TELL THEM!”

Don't tell me... TELL IT TO THE MARINES! Did anyone else catch that, or is it just me?

[EdBecerra]

Don't tell me... TELL IT TO THE MARINES! Did anyone else catch that, or is it just me?

I'd convinced myself that I was just reading between the lines and seeing something that wasn't really there. But if you've noticed it too...

Heh.

Amusing side note: my mother was a Marine, and had the chance to meet - and briefly work for - General Lewis "Chesty" Puller. Damn, I was envious of her when I found out.

And yeah, my mother did wear combat boots.

*blink*

Hey, Chesty's down there too.

Damnation, we need to find him and get him back in uniform!

[Edward Yee]

Ed, I immediately thought of a World War I poster of a Marine in vest, shirt, and trousers stripping off his suit jacket/coat with a chair nearby and a newspaper near it about the "Huns" with the poster's slogan being "Tell It To The Marines!"

The capacitator might damage a tank, or even destroy a lightly armored vehicle, but unless an aircraft is flying REALLY low, I don't see how it can shoot it down. Can someone with more knowledge of lightning strikes and other means of electrical damage enlighten me on its feasibility?

My initial skepticism re: the use of a naga-powered capacitor in retrospect is actually directed at unguided anti-air weapons in general, not electrical damage vs. airplanes past and present...

[EdBecerra]

Ed, I immediately thought of a World War I poster of a Marine in vest, shirt, and trousers stripping off his suit jacket/coat with a chair nearby and a newspaper near it about the "Huns" with the poster's slogan being "Tell It To The Marines!"

Heh.

My initial skepticism re: the use of a naga-powered capacitor in retrospect is actually directed at unguided anti-air weapons in general, not electrical damage vs. airplanes past and present...

Flesh is fairly easy to vaporize, rock less so. And if the bloody things do manage to annoy the world's military forces sufficiently, the NARSTY toybox may make another appearance. We've seen the Russians use sarin on the harpies - there are still a few veterans alive who can tell you what mustard gas was like in WW1.

The human race has been handed a comparatively easy victory, it's only human nature to resent it a bit when some sore loser insists on fighting to the last. And that resentment usually manifests itself with what we now call atrocities.

Vets of the Pacific campaign can tell you how, when the Japanese got stubborn, a sort of consensus appeared without any real need to discuss it - Marines simply decided, without needing to talk about it, that if the Japanese weren't going to try to surrender, they weren't going to try to take any alive. Some Marines regret that, some don't, some just don't talk about it at all.

After all, we're not all that far away, historically speaking, from the days of sacking cities and committing casual genocide. Caesar himself is less than 150 years away from the destruction of Carthage, and was taught about it as a young man. General Sherman burned Atlanta, and was considered by some to be remarkably soft-hearted in that he actually let people flee his advance. (And that about a man considered the founder of modern "total war.")

The battle in Heaven might - no, PROBABLY - will be worse, if humanity allows itself to forget morality and just kill until no angel is left standing.

"...but I will show no quarter, sir."

[Guardsman Bass]

He's Julius Caesar. That's all you need.

So suddenly just being famous is going to make you follow a man who, at best, can only offer legionaires (sp?) armed with a few guns, over all the industrialized nations of the world? That's just stupid.

That depends on how you define power. I honestly believe that if you dropped a still-living Julius Caesar into the 20th century, and allowed him several years to educate himself as to how the modern world works, ten years after that, he'd be ruling at least one nation and possibly more *without* (visibly) breaking any international laws. He'd simply out-think and out-politic most current world leaders. Not ALL of them, but most.

He wasn't good because he was famous, he was famous because he was that GOOD. Think of it as being like the Olympics. He's an Olympic class political type. Just as weekend athletes have no chance against an Olympian, most politicians would have no chance against him.

Oh, please. He had plenty of accomplishments to his name, but it's not as if he built himself up from nothing; he came from a well-to-do family and so forth.

We should be grateful that such people are so (relatively) few and far between - and Hell will be responsible for their comebacks.

A comedic example?

Elvis is down there. The King of Rock and Roll. Let's say he decides to get back into the music business. There are a lot of musicians who'll give up and give in, because they believe they stand no chance against the King trying to take his "throne" back. Not ALL of them, but a lot.

Do you even know any of the history of Elvis? Even though he continued to sell a shit-load of records, he was pretty much a washed up has-been in terms of creative output after the 1950s, at least in terms of the music he was making. If he were to suddenly re-emerge, he would probably remain a washed-up has-been (unless Hell has cleared him up, and even then a lot of his fame was because he came along at the right time to develop part of and popularize the new rock), although he could merchandise his fame and enjoy it.

He's certainly not going to cause a whole bunch of musicians to sign off in disgust; he didn't do that while he was alive.

Alan Turing's down there. A lot of people in IT consider him a minor deity. THAT'S going to cause shudders throughout IT society. Minor ones, but still...

He'll be famous, but hardly a god; remember, he's got to re-learn everything.

The best of the Best of the BEST. A very small minority in terms of numbers, an incredibly powerful minority as far as history is concerned.

We live through history. They MADE history. They're the movers and shakers, we're just passengers.

That's enough to make me cautious.

Oh, please. Very few of these men and women were so specifically important that history would be drastically different without them; many of them came to power in large part because of greater trends, and there were possible replacements. Hitler's a big example; if you don't get the post- World War I German humiliation and collapse, then no Hitler - or he simply remains some random-ass faction leader and/or soldier.

[EdBecerra]

I thought there was discussion in the thread that there are no "great men," only those in the right place and the right time? (Or arguably, who made the right moves.) Caesar certainly has the reputation which may get many to preemptively give in like Ed said (if he sticks around, I'm keeping this up), and the assistance of a technically-still-a-Nightstalker... who's only sleeping with a potential future enemy. The "crossing the Rubicon" moment will be what happens when someone either isn't impressed or actually sees through him and recognizes "a man who, at best, can only offer legionaires (sp?) armed with a few guns."

Do you mean if CAESAR sticks around, or if I do?

And yeah, I subscribe to the "great man" hypothesis of history - I see some, not all, great rulers as being like great athletes. (Some obviously, are just in the right place at the right time.) They really are somehow specially gifted compared to the general masses of humanity. Mostly by the random whim of genetics and access to better resources, but we ourselves, with horse and dog breeding, have demonstrated that the concept of a superior human isn't physically impossible, merely unethical. (And how amusing is it that I'm expounding on the very ethics whose existence I have trouble accepting?)

Some folks run faster, some lift heavier objects, some are better at math... and some of those differences appear to be innate, not learned.

Which, of course, sucks for the rest of us...

[EdBecerra]

Oh, please. Very few of these men and women were so specifically important that history would be drastically different without them; many of them came to power in large part because of greater trends, and there were possible replacements. Hitler's a big example; if you don't get the post- World War I German humiliation and collapse, then no Hitler - or he simply remains some random-ass faction leader and/or soldier.

I'm not sure about that. I've always suspected that the Bohemian Corporal might have been one of the Silver Tongues of history. Of course, a lot of people don't even believe that such an ability exists (the ability to tell people total garbage, and get them to believe it with will-power alone, often called the Gift of Gab), so your take on that will vary. Some folks believe in 'mass hypnosis', some don't. (reminds me of the "Science Related Mimetic Disorder" used as a plot device in the web-comic "A Miracle of Science" - pushing your mind as steroids might push your body. Of course, nothing's for free, and your body will pay for it later... it HAS been said that the power of insanity can give some people abilities far beyond normal. Hysterical strength is one such.)

If, as some have suggested, there's something to the "Many Worlds" interpretation of quantum physics and it's NOT impossible to investigate "real" examples of history going in other directions, historians will have a field day. Some of them will probably die of outrage and apoplexy, of course.

Damn, now you've reminded me of a good book, but I can't recall the title. History changed with the Tunguska Blast (which was caused by an alien ship, in the novel), and one scene near the end featured a "relatively unknown artist working for the publisher Hugo Gernsback" thrusting an example of his art into the hands of one of the aliens who was attending a public event.

It was, of course, Adolf Hitler... since the Event derailed WW1, the little man emigrated to America and took up doing artwork for pulp magazines.

Almost hurt myself laughing when I noticed it stuck in there as a minor scene. Wish I could remember the title.

Ed.

[Edward Yee]

Ed, I immediately thought of a World War I poster of a Marine in vest, shirt, and trousers stripping off his suit jacket/coat with a chair nearby and a newspaper near it about the "Huns" with the poster's slogan being "Tell It To The Marines!"

Heh.

Mindja, that's how I learned about the phrase, and spurred me to find out the story about Marines, fish, and kings. I swear it's like Stuart included it in expectation that someone would get it...

Flesh is fairly easy to vaporize, rock less so. And if the bloody things do manage to annoy the world's military forces sufficiently, the NARSTY toybox may make another appearance. We've seen the Russians use sarin on the harpies - there are still a few veterans alive who can tell you what mustard gas was like in WW1.

Re: AA -- I was thinking more about the fact that the capacitor may do a number on tanks and armored vehicles anyway (do mobility kills still count in this kind of warfare? ), but unless the naga-powered "capacitor AA gun" is has enough range (both horizontal and vertical), fires its projectiles fast enough (both in firing rate and distance traveled per unit of time) and the projectiles are guided... then at best it's an "energy" AA gun.

And that's before we even get into the quality of the aiming. For example, forget knowing about and being able to perform the calculations in a timely manner, does the gunner (it seems like the naga who's powering the capacitor) even understand the concept of leading a moving target?

Oh, and I meant if you stick around, I'm going to keep calling you Ed.

P.S. To one of those in the know... does the name Herwijer have any special significance? It doesn't sound... human.