The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Nine Up

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Eastern District Federal Court, Raleigh, North Carolina

"Your honor, this is the most outrageous infringement – no, your Honor, infringement is too mild a word – the most outrageous flouting of my client's constitutional rights that it has even been my misfortune to encounter. Miss Branch was denied legal representation. . . . . "

"Objection! Your honor, the defendant made no request for legal representation, in fact she made no statement at all until her final breakdown."

"Sustained. Strike the reference to the defendant being denied legal representation."

"My client was also drugged and threatened with sexual assault and mutilation at the hands of a cannibalistic. . . . ."

"Objection! Miss Sharmanaska is not a human being therefore the accusation of cannibalism is contrary to fact. In any case, as the videotape records of the interrogation clearly show, the defendant was never threatened or hurt in any way. Nor was she deliberately drugged. At this point, we believe it would clarify matters greatly if the court was to watch these videotapes. We believe they clearly refute the statements made by the defense.

Judge Candlass looked at the courtroom, the federal attorney prosecuting the case, the FBI agents who had made the interrogation and the succubus who had assisted them. His eyes were drawn to Lugasharmanaska, noting the yellow eyes with slit pupils set in darkly-shadowed sockets, the dead white skin of the face and hands, changing to the shiny black of the rest of her body, the red horns emerging from the pinkish hair. She was, he thought, quite charming. Then he shook himself. "Very well, we will watch the videotape. How long is it?"

"Five hours and five minutes your Honor." The judge winced.

"Your Honor, the defense is prepared to stipulate that my client said nothing for the first five hours. The essential part of the tape is the last five minutes. We would be agreeable to showing just the first ten minutes of the tape to prove my client made no incriminating statements and the last ten to show the court the despicable assault upon her constitutional rights."

"That sounds reasonable." The judge spoke with relief. "Clerk of the Court, please show the tape in the manner described."

Up on the television screen, the grainy image showed Kathryn Branch refusing to answer the questions put to her. The two FBI agents couldn't even get her to confirm her name or any other personal details. She just sat their, ignoring their increasingly-irritable questioning. Throughout the whole procedure, Lugasharmanska just sat there, emotionless and unblinking, her yellow eyes fixed on Branch. Eventually the Agent-in-Charge turned to his assistant.

"We're not going to get much out of her." Sith eventually sighed, "we can carry on tomorrow."

Luga stared at the girl. "I'm hungry."

"So am I. There's some nice restaurants in town."

"No, I'm hungry now. They look nice." Luga pointed at Kathryn Branch's breasts.

"Luga, you can't!" Sith was horrified.

Lugasharmanska turned slightly and the videocamera picked up her winking at Sith. Then she turned back to Banch and stared at her again. Branch went white, her eyes widening in fear, then she suddenly collapsed across the table, sobbing in fear. "Get her away from me!" Branch panicked, screaming the words, mixed out with weeping and fear. "Get that hell-spawn away from me. I'll tell you anything, just don’t let her . . . . ."

Luga stepped away and grinned at the two stunned FBI men. "There you are. You humans are so afraid of being eaten. Of course, you can't use her confession in court. Call me back if there are any more problems with her."

Kathryn Branch was already babbling out a long list of the people she had contacted in her espionage ring. As she left, Luga stopped and patted her comfortingly on the head. The tape continued to run, showing Branch continuing to pour out all the information she had on her spying activities. Then, it ended.

"Your honor, the prosecution submit that the tape clearly shows the defendant was neither drugged nor coerced. In fact, except for the brief, comforting, pat on the head as she left, there was no physical contact at all between the law enforcement authorities and the defendant."

The Judge frowned and privately wished this case had gone before somebody else. Judge Simpkins perhaps, Candlass had never liked him. This case had the potential to be a career-ender.

"Your Honor, the key part of the defense case is not shown by this tape. Succubae are well-known to have pheremones that make those around them sympathetic to them and they also have the daemonic ability to entangle people's minds and make them see and experience things that are not real. We contend that Miss Sharmanaska's presence in the interrogation room was equivalent to drugging my client and that she implanted the visions in her mind that led to her collapse. She may not have been physically coerced, but the threat of mutilation was very real Miss Sharmanaska herself confirms it when she said, and I quote, 'You humans are so afraid of being eaten.' And she herself said 'Of course, you can't use her confession in court.' I submit that my client's confession should be thrown out on these grounds. And, of course, any information derived from it should also be cast out as the fruit of the poison tree."

"Your Honor, Miss Sharmanaska is not a lawyer, her opinions are those of a lay. . . . . lay," The prosecuting attorney hesitated then settled for the conventional, "person."

"I think Miss Sharmanska should answer for herself on this. Clerk of the Court, swear her in."

Lugasharmanaska took the stand and the Clerk approached her, a little nervously. "Repeat after me, I affirm that the evidence I shall give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so he. . . ." From sheer force of habit, the Clerk had almost ended the oath with the traditional 'so help me God.'

Luga smiled at him and helpfully added "So help me, me?"

The Federal attorney took up the questioning. "Your name is Luga Sharmanaska?"

"It is now. My original name was Lugasharmanaska, one word. All daemonic names are one word. But when I became an American citizen, it was split into two."

"Please explain to the court about these pheremones?"

"I do not know much, only what I have been told. All succubae know that we make those around us friendly and agreeable. We always thought it was magic, we called it miasma, and never questioned how it happened. Then humans came and asked questions. How and why. They found that our bodies emit pheremones that change the emotions of those around us. So, they say, do humans, although their pheremones are not as effective as ours."

"I see, so your pheremones are just a developed version of something all humans have. Can they make people do things against their will."

Luga hesitated. "No, if somebody really doesn't want to do something, the pheremones won’t make them. For that we must use trickery."

"And, for five hours, the defendant refused to speak although she must have known doing so would please you. Did that surprise you?"

"Not really. I said, if somebody is determined not to do something, my miasma won’t make them. But, the government asked me to help protect itself from the defendant and who am I to refuse aid to the country that gave me refuge?"

"Your honor, please let the record state that Miss Sharmanaska has been of great assistance in the war effort, often at considerable personal risk and has suffered severely during her efforts. Her loyalty is not subject to doubt."We don’t doubt that she has no loyalty at all to anybody but herself. The Federal attorney was very careful not to give a hint of the thought. "You said trickery Miss Sharmanaska. How?"

"Before humans started to wear your silver hats, we could create images in your mind. I could make myself look like a wife so a faithful husband would lay with me not knowing who or what I was. The Incubi, our male equivalents could make themselves look like a faithful wife's husband for the same reason. Or I could project an image of empty space so that people would not see me at all."

"And you could project this image to multiple persons at one."

"Only if they were not wearing silver hats, yes. We used to do it all the time."

"What if they are wearing silver hats?"

"Then unless I was very close and concentrated on a single mind, I cannot entangle that mind. Even under ideal situations, penetrating a silver cap is exhausting."

Judge Candlass tapped his gavel. "I want to see this. Miss Sharmanaska, can you change your appearance please?"

"If you take your hat off. Who would you like me to look like."

The judge remembered his favorite poster from the 1980s. "Farrah Fawcett."

The Court recorder called the famous poster up on his computer and showed Luga the picture. She nodded and the judge took off his tinfoil cap. Even doing so made him feel uneasy and his head felt naked without its protection. It was no wonder that going around without a tinfoil cap was a sign of madness. Then he looked at the witness stand and saw Farrah Fawcett standing there in the trademark red swimsuit. He gasped, put on his cap and, once more, he saw the succubus in her real form.

"Miss Sharmanaska, you must be the most dangerous person I have ever seen in this courtroom."

"Thank you, your Honor." Lugasharmanaska sounded pleased.

"Miss Sharmanaska, do you have any legal training?" The Federal Attorney returned to the case,

"No, only the studies of the Constitution required for me to become a Citizen."

"So your comment about not being able to use the information gained in court was your own, unqualified opinion?"

"In a way, although I thought the information we gained would be secret and not revealed to anybody. That is what I meant.

"Ah, I see." Well done Luga. That throws a spanner in the defense. "No further questions."

The Defense attorney rose to his feet. "Miss Sharmanaska, do you eat human meat?"

"Not now, no."

"Have you ever?"

"Objection your Honor. Relevence?"

"Goes to credibility of the alleged threat."

"Overruled. Witness will answer."

"Once, yes. But that was before I joined humans."

"Did you project an image of you eating my client's breasts."

"Not her breasts, no." Luga smiled to herself. She'd noted how lawyers played with words.

"Oh." The attorney was confused. "So what did you project an image of?"

"I haven't said that I did."

"Well did you?"

"Yes."

"What of."

"Eating one breast. Singular. Not both of them." A ripple of laughter ran around the courtroom. That made Luga feel a lot easier in her mind, her pheremones were having their usual effect.

"Your Honor, there we have it. A hideous, coercive threat of permanent mutilation."

"Not permanent. It would grow back."

"Not on Earth it won't."

"Oh. I forgot that." Luga had honestly forgotten that bodies didn't regenerate on Earth.

"Irrelevent. Your Honor, I maintain that the statements we have heard today are enough to support the claim that my client's constitutional rights were trampled underfoot, that she was drugged and terrified into making her confession. In fact, I would go as far to say she was tortured mentally until she confessed. She was threatened with dreadful physical harm by a creature she had been brought up to regard as the epitome of evil. I mean no disrespect to Miss Sharmanaska, her record of valued service to the human cause is well known and her television program is loved by millions. She was doing what she believed was helping her adopted country as best she could. We should respect that. But she is a daemon and what she did was wrong. As such, her confession and all that stems from it should be ruled inadmissible and stricken from the record."

"Prosecution?"

"Your Honor. We have already disproved the charge that the defendant was denied her legal rights. The accusation that she was drugged also falls since the defense has admitted she spent five hours under interrogation without the pheremones having any effect on her. In fact, the interrogation was on the point of being ended as a failure, showing that the alleged drugging did not take place. As to the threat, the courts have always been prepared to accept that the law enforcement community has a degree of latitude in such things. It is commplace, for example, to tell an alleged murdered that if he does not confess, the prosecution will seek the death penalty. The horrors of going to an American prison are also described in an attempt to produce a confession. Who amongst us has not heard going to prison being described as 'starting a new career as a bad man's girlfriend?' How often do we see the deal being offered 'five to ten if you confess, 25 to life if you do not?" Such threats and intimidation may not be a happy part of the law enforcement system but they are an accepted one that does not invalidate a confession. All that happened here was that the same such threats were made in a slightly more vivid and persuasive form that usual. There was no real danger of the defendant suffering physical harm. The law enforcement officers would not have permitted it and I feel sure that Miss Sharmanaska, with her pride in her American Citizenship would not have carried out her threat. And, I must point out that the information gained as a result of this interrogation will greatly benefit every citizen of the world. Remember, Uriel is still out there. We still face unknown dangers from Heaven. Can we afford to tolerate traitors in our midst. Your Honor, I implore you not to rule this information inadmissible."

Judge Candlass looked across the court, making up his mind. "This is a hard case and breaks new ground. The society we face today is unimaginable two years ago. Creatures we once thought were mythical have proved to be all to real and they have powers that our laws do not even begin to cover. Until new laws are written, and writing law is not the role of the Judiciary, we must do the best we can by applying existing law to these new circumstances. Working on that principle, it is this Court's ruling that . . . . . . ."

(please go to poll How Should Judge Candlass Rule).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by The Vortex Empire »

Judge Candlass should rule that Luga is innocent of any crime. No physical harm was done to Branch, and that she betrayed Earth to Heaven should be enough to justify Luga's actions.

Following the letter of the law, however, the confession is inadmissible.
Last edited by The Vortex Empire on 2009-08-21 01:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Baughn »

The judge should rule that the confession is poisoned fruit, to head off the possibility of illusionary torture becoming a common tool in investigations. However, I'm 50/50 on whether he'd actually do that, under the circumstances; judge based on whether he's serving law or his government.

(Off-topic: They make threats about sentence length like that? Seriously? I'd cave to such a threat, regardless of whether I'd committed a crime or not.)
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by JonB »

It is my opinion that the prosecution is in the right here, although the closing remarks from both sides favoured the prosecution. However, Luga did threaten the witness with bodilly harm - even if she had no intention of going through with it, and I am not sure how that would work under the American Legal system.

To put it differently, if Officer JonB said to the accused criminal Vortex Empire (no offense), "Sign this confession or I shoot you dead!" while displaying a loaded weapon, how would a judge react to the signed confession? The crime itself doesn't really matter, but how evidence was achieved.

Another slightly tangental question I have, is now that the FBI has these names, how will they act on them if the confession is thrown out?

And either way - this case will get appealed all the way to the supreme court. Or would this qualify as a war crime, given her apparent loyalty to Heaven?

I am so glad I'm not a lawyer.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

I just went and voted in favor of the confession being thrown out. It seemed better to err on the side of caution in matters like these since it seems an easy comparison to make between this and waterbording where the actual phsyical situation doesn't matter quite as much as what the person undergoing it percieves their situation to be.

That said in the future as a way of breaking down criminals it would seem that as part of their Miranda rights there should be a bit included about how they may experience Sucubus entanglement related to the crimes they are believed to have comited. Or possibly it becomes something you need to get a court order for ("We have here permission from a judge to have you be entangled within the following situation, thought the images and sensations you are about to see and feel are entirely fictious and can not harm you though they may prove to be disturbing. Based on the nature of your supposed crimes you will experince .... in our hopes that this experience will leave you realizing just how wrong the actions words and convince you to confess to your wrong doings...) Then during interrigation the person will be subjected to the best we can create of a victums recollection of the crime. In this case the girl should probably have been entangled into knowing how it felt to be attacked by Uriel for example.

It would only be allowed to be done once, to prevent the "confess in order to make it stop" problem that causes information gained through torture to be untrustworthy by nature, and with consuling made available afterwords (and paid by the court for in the case of a non guilty verdict) but since if I remember correctly seeing the films of the concentration camps at Nuremburg left even some of the top Nazi's feeling horrified and disgusted, imagine what having the genuine feeling of a concentration camp member would have done to them!
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

Another slightly tangental question I have, is now that the FBI has these names, how will they act on them if the confession is thrown out?

The right move is that even if the confession gets thrown out you investigate those people, because we've got significant circumstantial evidence to believe that these people might be working for heaven, so you investigate them and maybe bring them in to play traditioanl good cop, bad cop. While we might not be able to get them thrown in jail, it'll be easy to make sure that those people aren't in a position to give heaven any more useful information, possibly even having them incarserated for their own protection since if this girl walks (which I think she should) the public might not be very happy about it...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

The prosecution really fails (to me) on its defense of the drugging. 'It didn't work so she wasn't drugged' is an insane reasoning point, it only means that she wasn't SUFFICIENTLY drugged for it to work. They impaired her mental status by chemical means, whether or not it made her confess is irrelevant.

I'd throw the confession out.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Teebs »

Amusingly I had a dream about the Pantheocide universe last night.

On the trial I think the judge should rule the confession is inadmissable. As has been pointed out, a confession obtained after a policeman put a gun to somoene's head and ordered them to confess would be inadmissable and this is no different. I also want to 'me too' Captainchewbacca on the drugging.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Jim Starluck »

I would throw out the confession as well. Like Baughn said, this could set an exceedingly dangerous precedent, which is something all judges have to be mindful of every time they make a ruling.

I'm not certain about throwing out the intelligence gained from it, however, since we've had a very, very hard time getting any concrete information on Heaven's operations, and this is the first real break we've had.

Edit: Whoops. *goes to vote in the actual poll*
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Re: Stuart
Thank you for raising this issue up; I respect you all the more for knowing that you're not going to let the implications of something like this slide as some authors might.
Bayonet wrote:But if it were an existential war, then anything that stood in the way of survival must be stamped out. Protesters would be imprisoned and the press censored, much the way it was done during WW-II, a much less significant conflict than this one.
I do not know how fast and how enthusiastically society would make the jump from "we have a constitution" to "this is a war of survival, DEATH TO THE DISSENTERS!" Especially not when, by all appearances, we're winning.

Also, I'd be more than a little worried about anything that happened after the hangover sets in. Investigations of war crimes and unconstitutional acts that get covered up during an existential war may nonetheless come out after your side wins the existential war. At which point the populace will turn around and start chewing you to pieces for doing what they thought was perfectly fine and righteous at the time, because people are like that.

So I'd be thinking about the risk, and I don't think I'd dismiss it the way you do.
_______

I believe that Judge Candless, whether or not he approves of Ms. Branch, and whether or not he approves of Luga, should rule that the testimony is legally inadmissible. I contend that is, by any reasonable standard of constitutional law.

There's a good reason that the first degree of torture used by the Inquisition was to simply take the subject into a torture chamber and show them the instruments of torture while explaining their use. That's a level of intimidation far beyond such abstract threats as "we will call for the death penalty." It presents the suspect with imminent fear of agonizing, crippling bodily harm. It wasn't right when demons did it to random human sensitives before the war started, and it isn't right now.

Now, I don't think the intelligence can be thrown out, or should. But there's a difference between intelligence and evidence admissible in court.
_______

Moreover, I agree with:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The prosecution really fails (to me) on its defense of the drugging. 'It didn't work so she wasn't drugged' is an insane reasoning point, it only means that she wasn't SUFFICIENTLY drugged for it to work. They impaired her mental status by chemical means, whether or not it made her confess is irrelevant.

I'd throw the confession out.
Baughn wrote:The judge should rule that the confession is poisoned fruit, to head off the possibility of illusionary torture becoming a common tool in investigations. However, I'm 50/50 on whether he'd actually do that, under the circumstances; judge based on whether he's serving law or his government.
_______
(Off-topic: They make threats about sentence length like that? Seriously? I'd cave to such a threat, regardless of whether I'd committed a crime or not.)
Yes, they do. And quite a few people do cave, which is exactly the problem with that kind of threat.

Similarly, in civil suits (at least in the US), it is common for the plaintiff to offer to settle out of court for a smaller sum than the one they're suing for. Even people who are fairly confident they'd win a court case will often accept, which creates the same kind of problem.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Serafina »

They influenced her via mind-influencing substances. Whether or not they were effective does not matter.

Luga used threath on that woman. Whether or not she would have done it is irrelevant to that fact.

Is Luga guilty of any crime? I would say yes. Not for her miamsa - she can not controll it, after all. But for the mindrape - she invaded the mind of an unwilling woman and caused her considerable harm.
I would rule this as an assault, but at the very least as a threath of physical violence.

But, as they say, extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures.
I would like to see the following: Luga is guilty of assaulting that woman, but she is not convicted - after all, the US are already using shady methods in the "war against terror".
Given that Heaven is a way more real and dangerous threat than this, borderline actions should at least be possible (if not universally allowed).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Chad »

Baughn wrote:(Off-topic: They make threats about sentence length like that? Seriously? I'd cave to such a threat, regardless of whether I'd committed a crime or not.)
If you think about it from the other direction it makes sense. Who would ever plea bargin to anything if the plea was the exact same punishment you would get if you went to trial? Why not just go to trail and take the chance of getting a not guilty verdict?

Really it is no morally different than an innocent person being convicted and sent to jail in the 1st place. It is a sucky situation that isn't going to change until someone invents a "truth" machine.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Baughn »

Chad wrote: If you think about it from the other direction it makes sense. Who would ever plea bargin to anything if the plea was the exact same punishment you would get if you went to trial? Why not just go to trail and take the chance of getting a not guilty verdict?
Hm. For comparison, in Norway (i.e. here; I talked to a fellow student who's studying law), an attempt at such bargains would be enough to have a confession thrown out without prejudice.

That doesn't mean a confession doesn't help. Although it's apparently a recent rule; what the law allows for is that if you confess to the crime, and (this is important; the confession isn't) provide information that helps the investigation, you can get a penalty reduction that is spelled out in the law. If your confession doesn't help, then there's no reduction.

(I haven't looked at the reasoning behind that, but intuitively it would be that the confession in itself would not be considered evidence, in a case where it was provided in hopes of a penalty reduction.)

Obviously, then, this mainly matters in cases with multiple criminals. I recall there was a bank robbery a few years back where they mentioned something like this, come to think of it.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Pelranius »

Personally, I'd probably have to throw it out, based on established precedent. That doesn't mean the CIA or whoever can't use it for their own investigations.

As for Luga breaking any laws, that's what pardons are for.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Peptuck »

I'd agree that the confession needs to be thrown out. Even if Luga wasn't already mindraping Branch with entanglement, she was still unintentionally drugging Branch merely by being present, and there's the implicit threat of violence.

However, the prosecution should have followed up on other information, such as the evidence from the leaks leading back to Branch, or information acquired from investigating Branch's other contacts. Just because the confession has been thrown out doesn't mean other evidence should be ignored, and I'm amazed the prosecution would have gone to trial with such a shaky confession anyway without additional supporting evidence. A confession is potent, but one acquired by means that anyone can tell is questionable is far from ironclad and shouldn't be the basis for a trial.

Branch may be a traitor, but there's a possibility she could walk if the confession is all the evidence the prosecution has.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by R011 »

Serafina wrote:Is Luga guilty of any crime?
Luga probably has the defence, if charged, that as a layperson, she cannot reasonably be expected to know what is permissible in a police interrogation - assuming, of course, that a grand jury would indict.

Really, though, if the FBI expected to get admissible evidence, they should never have let Luga into the room with the suspect. Miasma alone is enough to get any statements by Heaven's spy tossed.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Samuel »

This should never have come to trial. They should have had Luga disguised and used the Bond method on her. It would have been priceless.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Peptuck wrote:I'd agree that the confession needs to be thrown out. Even if Luga wasn't already mindraping Branch with entanglement, she was still unintentionally drugging Branch merely by being present, and there's the implicit threat of violence.

However, the prosecution should have followed up on other information, such as the evidence from the leaks leading back to Branch, or information acquired from investigating Branch's other contacts. Just because the confession has been thrown out doesn't mean other evidence should be ignored, and I'm amazed the prosecution would have gone to trial with such a shaky confession anyway without additional supporting evidence. A confession is potent, but one acquired by means that anyone can tell is questionable is far from ironclad and shouldn't be the basis for a trial.

Branch may be a traitor, but there's a possibility she could walk if the confession is all the evidence the prosecution has.
If I understand the American legal system as well as I think I do, then even if there is other evidence, the tainted confession weakens the prosecution's case to the point where she walks. Bringing in Luga (and letting her do her mind control schtick) was a major violation of due process.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Sorry, I just noticed something. When was Luga made a CITIZEN of the US?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Probably some time during or immediately after the events of Armageddon. She effectively cast her lot in with the humans very early on, and she never gave us any cause to complain about her loyalty, competence, or usefulness. So I can at least imagine her successfully applying for citizenship... especially if she got any responsible decision makers into a small room with poor ventilation before asking them to help her get it.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by ray245 »

I have to ask, is chapter 30 necessary? I would think it is a better idea to let if appear off-screen rather than appearing on-screen.

It seems to distract the readers from the war itself.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Peptuck »

ray245 wrote:I have to ask, is chapter 30 necessary? I would think it is a better idea to let if appear off-screen rather than appearing on-screen.

It seems to distract the readers from the war itself.
I don't think so. TSW isn't just about the war entirely - it's also about the repercussions of something as monumental as the events portrayed. This chapter showed something that I think really needed to be explored: the legal ramifications of Heaven, Hell, and various demonic and angelic powers, as well as the repercussions of immortality and the like.

To tell the truth, having the war take a brief backseat to domestic and legal issues is refreshing.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by R011 »

Simon_Jester wrote:If I understand the American legal system as well as I think I do, then even if there is other evidence, the tainted confession weakens the prosecution's case to the point where she walks.
I had thought they could keep her as an enemy combatant, but I've done a little bit more reading and it seems unlikely that they can do so. She would probably walk. She'd be under surveillance, of course, and once someone murders her, which is highly likely, then they'll pick her up when she goes to Hell.

As she won't be in the US then, and she might well be picked up by some other nation's troops in Hell, what happens then? The PRC or Caesar's new republic aren't subject to US civilian courts and the US constitution.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by TheClueless »

R011 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:If I understand the American legal system as well as I think I do, then even if there is other evidence, the tainted confession weakens the prosecution's case to the point where she walks.
I had thought they could keep her as an enemy combatant, but I've done a little bit more reading and it seems unlikely that they can do so. She would probably walk. She'd be under surveillance, of course, and once someone murders her, which is highly likely, then they'll pick her up when she goes to Hell.
I voted for throwing out the confession because using Luga at all - let alone letting her threaten to make a meal out of the fanatic - was a violation of Branch's rights.

But that won't mean that the information will be thrown out by the government, even if it can't be used - at least not directly - in a court of law.

And your comment on Branch's fate brings up the less pleasant reason why I voted to throw out the confession. Spending the rest of her natural life in solitary confinment, is probably much better that what will happen to Branch if she's declared "innocent" (because the FBI screwed up beyond the prosecutor's ability to salvage the case).

It could be "concerned citizens", it could be agents for another government where certain laws - at least in practice - are much different, but sooner than latter, someone who knows about Branch is going to act. And then a session involving drugs (Luga's pheoromones) the threat of violence and mutilation (Luga's stated desire for some lunch) is going to seem like a memory of Heaven.

I hope that whoever ends up going after her doesn't kill her before getting all of the information she has, however. Michael might actually have set things up so she goes to Heaven, instead of to Hell, after all.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Thirty Up

Post by Pelranius »

Wouldn't it have been more practical for Luga to pretend to be an angel and get Branch to spill out her guts?

She doesn't seem to be a person who knows basic operational security (though I wonder how she was able to get a job in/near such a sensitive targtet). Imagine if some fighter pilot decides to play kamikaze on a nuclear power plant.
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