The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Ted C]

Rhea was the mother of the Greek pantheon. Heh, it would be funny if Rhea was also Yahweh and Satan's mother as well.

I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility. What with all the lightning tossing, Yahweh seems to have a lot in common with Zeus, and Satan arguably has a lot in common with Hades. Caesar and his friends may have been protected because Yahweh and Satan were afraid of Mom.

[Count Chocula]

Zacharael-Lan joined in Michael's merriment. "That I should have such work to do."

A minor angel's a Yid? Oy-veh!

It looks like the "IHS" on Christ's cross has teeth, and there are indeed Jews in Heaven! The Christian fundie's head explodes!

[CaptainChewbacca]

Ok, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. This might be (it actually probably is) because I don't know how new nations are set up, or how you would go about colonizing a whole new world, and I might have missed some points in the story, but I've got some questions that might help clear this up for me.

How did he get legal control of the land in his territory? Wouldn't the armies of Earth, which are already there, be able to claim land for their countries? The countries that won the war would have the bigger say in how the land is divided wouldn't they? Or did they not divide up Hell amongst themselves?

The allies did, but the fact of the matter is Caesar's New Rome was FIELDING TROOPS against the forces of Hell during the Battle of the Phlegthon. He is, in word and deed, an allied state inside hell. Sure, the US could decide that they didn't want to give him land and just crush him, but then America would've been dealing with an insurgency of second-life humans working for Caesar. It was WAY easier to work with him than against him.

He's got no machinery, so construction of houses and buildings would probably be slow, and I'm sure many of his citizens might not even know how to build a house. While he no doubt has some construction crews on his side, how could he possibly be able to keep up construction in on his lands? What does he pay people with?

Caesar has land and a safe place for second-life humans to stay. He's got power with respect to the demons in his realm and that gives him some infernal currency. Once he got his 'New Rome' set up he started getting MASSIVE ammounts of cash because the choice was be rich in an american refugee camp or be moderately well-off in one of New Rome's villas. As for keeping up? His people can work 24 hours a day without stopping.

Also, about his army, he himself admitted that he doesn't have alot of equipment, and probably no means to support any mechanized or sophisticated armies, so who would pick his army over the American, Russian etc armies for defense?

American and Russian armies are native to earth. Their soldiers cannot survive in hell without protective equipment, and they depend on earth gas and machinery. The Armies of New Rome are integrated demons and second-life humans. Most have guns, but demons don't need ammunition to stop another demon. Also, as an American ally, there's no reason to think another allied nation is going to attack, so all Caesar has to worry about is trident-armed wild demons.

And as you mention that he is working up on laws, rules and systems that make people comfortable, wouldn't it simply be easier for people to say "Well, I know the American legal system, so I'll stick with that in Hell?" Why can't America just automatically transfer over its laws to Hell-America?

I'm sure the american territory in hell will operate under american law, but New Romans aren't just Americans; they come from all nationalities and peoples.

He has none of the comforts people are used to (I think?) like computers, TVs, electricity, etc etc. Why would people go to a place like that?

I'm pretty sure they DO have electricity and things like that, but as has been said before once you die comfort and familiarity take up different meanings.

As I said, this is mainly due to my lack of knowledge in legal matters, how nations are set up, and probably because I missed plot points in the story, but I'm just trying to make sense of this.

The problem is, you're seeing Caesar as either an adversary or an exploitable nation. He is neither. He is a politically-savvy military commander who has distinguished himself as an American ally. Furthermore, he's got some recently-dead American advisors on his side who want to see him succeed. The colonization and integration of Hell into the world economy COULD go the way you're thinking, with imperialists steamrolling in and subjugating everything, but as we've seen in earth's own history this isn't efficient or beneficial in the long term.

And one thing every politician on earth is mindful of is that sooner or later they're going to die, so they want to make sure hell has every advantage it can get because it will be their home.

[Ted C]

How did he get legal control of the land in his territory? Wouldn't the armies of Earth, which are already there, be able to claim land for their countries? The countries that won the war would have the bigger say in how the land is divided wouldn't they? Or did they not divide up Hell amongst themselves?

Maybe they did, but modern people are going to be a minority in the population of Hell.

He's got no machinery, so construction of houses and buildings would probably be slow, and I'm sure many of his citizens might not even know how to build a house. While he no doubt has some construction crews on his side, how could he possibly be able to keep up construction in on his lands? What does he pay people with?

Having gotten a jump start on negotiating with some of the demonic population, Caesar probably obtained access to quarries, tools, and other resources that already existed in Hell. Since the weather is pretty consistent and the actual physical needs of the population are small (they don't actually need to eat, for instance), he has a huge, inexpensive labor pool to apply to relatively primitive construction methods. He presumably pays in land, which he has managed to claim in abundance by virtue of having people standing on it.

Also, about his army, he himself admitted that he doesn't have alot of equipment, and probably no means to support any mechanized or sophisticated armies, so who would pick his army over the American, Russian etc armies for defense?

Like the demons did, he has numbers on his side, and his people will be much harder to kill than living soldiers. For many of the inhabitants of Hell, modern technology and society will be alien, so they'll gravitate toward something familiar.

And as you mention that he is working up on laws, rules and systems that make people comfortable, wouldn't it simply be easier for people to say "Well, I know the American legal system, so I'll stick with that in Hell?" Why can't America just automatically transfer over its laws to Hell-America?

America has only been around for a few centuries; Hell has been accumulating a human population for millenia. Only a small portion of the total Hell population knows the American legal system. There are probably more people in Hell who know the Roman legal system than the American one.

He has none of the comforts people are used to (I think?) like computers, TVs, electricity, etc etc. Why would people go to a place like that?

Hardly anyone else has those comforts, either; Earth is too busy waging war against Heaven to devote a lot of resources to building modern infrastructure in Hell. Caesar is probably in a better position to start building that infrastructure than anyone else, and he's doing his best to attract people with the knowledge and skills that he needs.

[Gil Hamilton]

I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility. What with all the lightning tossing, Yahweh seems to have a lot in common with Zeus, and Satan arguably has a lot in common with Hades. Caesar and his friends may have been protected because Yahweh and Satan were afraid of Mom.

I don't know. Gods tend to reflect the culture and Yahweh is definitely not a Greek. For one, he seems to have a real problem with people having a good party, which is a notion no self-respecting Greek God would hold. After all, drinking, fighting, and disguising one's self as a really pretty goose to get it on with mortal girls is how Zeus rolled and his boys weren't much different (Apollo, Dionysis, Heracles et cetera).

Satan isn't much like Hades at all. For one, of the three brothers that Rhea and Cronos had, if anything, Hades was the calm, level headed one. Poseidon and Zeus certainly weren't. He may have indulged the odd kidnapping, but he was never really actively malevolent to anyone. Certainly not a frothing at the mouth psycho like Satan is.

[dragon]

You know with all these new nations setting up, once the war is finally over it moxst likely won't be long before nations are fighting nations again.
Hum maybe Michael should slip some good stuff into his boss's food/drink or whatever might make him a little more easy to manipulate.

[Darth Yoshi]

Oh, fuck yeah. Caesar is under the protection of a fucking Titan. Considering that even in the myths Rhea was never banished by Zeus, there's a good possibility that the Olympians are still kicking around somewhere.

Heh, Jesus is busy growing and sampling new forms of pot. Awesome.

I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility. What with all the lightning tossing, Yahweh seems to have a lot in common with Zeus, and Satan arguably has a lot in common with Hades. Caesar and his friends may have been protected because Yahweh and Satan were afraid of Mom.

No, the Olympians were definitely dicks, but their asshattery was mostly through indifference to human suffering, rather than an active desire for control like with Yahweh. Further, Zeus was a well-known womanizer, who'd pretty much fuck anything with two legs and a vagina, unlike Yahweh, who seems to view sex as a distraction from the whole eternal devotion thing.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Then there's the whole "mother of gods" aspect (Rhea was the mother of the founding members of the Greek Pantheon: Hades, Hera, Zeus, Demeter, Poseidon, and Hestia) - since we've never actually got a good portrayal of Yahweh (is he of the same type of being as the angels? We've never heard of him being portrayed with wings), it's possible that he and the "Others" come of the same root.

Well, from the story so far we gather that Satan & Yahweh are something wholly apart from their Demonic and Angelic minions. My guess is that they are devils and so are a number of the 'Gods'. However, that's just my supposition and I could be totally missing a couple clues Stuart has left.

[Darth Wong]

How did he get legal control of the land in his territory? Wouldn't the armies of Earth, which are already there, be able to claim land for their countries? The countries that won the war would have the bigger say in how the land is divided wouldn't they? Or did they not divide up Hell amongst themselves?

Possession is nine tenths of the law, and the HEA is not interested in starting new wars with groups which are nominally not enemies. This would be even more true now that many deceased citizens of the HEA's member countries are making their homes in New Rome. If Caesar managed to occupy the land with his forces and/or self-declared citizens, then he is the de facto owner of that land and the HEA must recognize that by international law unless they intend to force him off that land militarily.

He's got no machinery, so construction of houses and buildings would probably be slow, and I'm sure many of his citizens might not even know how to build a house. While he no doubt has some construction crews on his side, how could he possibly be able to keep up construction in on his lands? What does he pay people with?

Actually, residential buildings are mostly constructed by people working by hand even today. Industrial buildings are built using heavy machinery for everything, but that's not an issue for occupying land and building settlements. And the Romans were hard-working bastards who could and did work remarkably fast.

Also, about his army, he himself admitted that he doesn't have alot of equipment, and probably no means to support any mechanized or sophisticated armies, so who would pick his army over the American, Russian etc armies for defense?

Anyone who recognizes that those armies' first priority is defending their Earthly origin states, not any fledgling state in Hell. Those armies are actually under the command of the HEA and would be unavailable to defend any fledgling nation-state in Hell unless HEA Command authorized it.

Moreover, there probably is no other fledgling nation-state in Hell, and there won't be for quite a while. No governmental organization can move that quickly; modern nation-states do everything by committee. Militaries have other priorities, like defending Earth. And corporations aren't recognized as nations.

And as you mention that he is working up on laws, rules and systems that make people comfortable, wouldn't it simply be easier for people to say "Well, I know the American legal system, so I'll stick with that in Hell?" Why can't America just automatically transfer over its laws to Hell-America?

No. In case you forgot, America constitutes only 4% of the world's population even at present, and even less when you include thousands of years of history. Honestly, this idea is just downright stupid, not to mention containing the implicit assumption that America's system of laws is a particularly good one.

He has none of the comforts people are used to (I think?) like computers, TVs, electricity, etc etc. Why would people go to a place like that?

As opposed to what? Miami?

As a final note, I think we also need to remember the enormous shadow Julius Caesar cast over western civilization. It is noteworthy that when Dante wrote his book about Hell more than a thousand years later, he identified Caesar's betrayers as the unfortunate recipients of the worst treatment in all of Hell. That's going to have a pretty big influence on peoples' choices: just knowing who runs the place. And remember that he's been building up a huge clandestine army over the millennia which is now operating out in the open. It may not be high tech, but it can occupy land and it provides a seed which allows the maintenance of law and order for a much larger population.

[Stuart]

How did he get legal control of the land in his territory? Wouldn't the armies of Earth, which are already there, be able to claim land for their countries? The countries that won the war would have the bigger say in how the land is divided wouldn't they? Or did they not divide up Hell amongst themselves?

The actual path of ownership is that the land in question (essentially the Elysian Fields) were once part of the domains of Asmodeus. When he was killed, Satan awarded them to Belial as a reward for destroying Sheffield and Detroit and for his attempts to rescue Satan when the Satanic Palace was bombed. When Tartarus came under siege, Euryale betrayed Belial, tried to kill him then convinced teh armies moving in that she and her cohorts were as much victims of Belial as anybody else and he had usurped her estates. She lost Tartarus (its mineral resources were too great to leave in daemonic hands) but she kept the rest. While everybody else was working out what to do, Caesar struck a deal with her by which she ceded the land to him for his new state in exchange for sanctuary plus a share of the revenues he could generate from it. When countries or lands are occupied, the occupying armies (these days) do not carve the territory up and reassign it from ground zero. Most people retain the land they always had.

Also, remember, Caesar was not a passive participant in the Curb Stomp War. He fought actively on the human side (arguably for much longer than any other human) and on at least one occasion narrowly averted a major human defeat. He's got a lot of credits with the HEA he can cash in.

He's got no machinery, so construction of houses and buildings would probably be slow, and I'm sure many of his citizens might not even know how to build a house. While he no doubt has some construction crews on his side, how could he possibly be able to keep up construction in on his lands? What does he pay people with?

Are you kidding? With enough labor, stone houses can be built very fast and doesn't require much skilled labor. Stone masons are needed, certainly but assembling the dressed stone isn't hard. Also, New Rome is a mix of daemons and humans (note the old abusive nickname "Baldrick" is dropping out of use as the fighting recedes into the past) and daemons are much stronger than humans and can do a lot of work humans can't. The old-time Romans could build stone structures remarkably quickly. With his workforce, Caesar can do the same. What does he pay people with? The income gained from selling people land of course. At this point New Rome is a Ponzi Scheme but then most national economies are.

Also, about his army, he himself admitted that he doesn't have alot of equipment, and probably no means to support any mechanized or sophisticated armies, so who would pick his army over the American, Russian etc armies for defense?

Because the human armies can't be everywhere all the time. They're stretched very, very thin trying to secure the land area of Hell - which is huge. Think twice the land area of Earth, all in one continent and all habitable. They also have the war with Heaven to deal with plus other commitments. Sure, a human army outguns Caesar's but Caesar's Army is there, on the scene. It's not a small army, more thn 70,000 daemons, an increasing proportion of whom are armed with human weapons and around 30,000 humans, all armed with mdoern weapons. And its got GJC in command.

And as you mention that he is working up on laws, rules and systems that make people comfortable, wouldn't it simply be easier for people to say "Well, I know the American legal system, so I'll stick with that in Hell?" Why can't America just automatically transfer over its laws to Hell-America?

Because the United States isn't the only force in hell and the overwhelming number of people in Hell aren't Americans. Caesar has, as growth seed, more than two and a half million Second Life humans he rescued from torment and who owe him absolute loyalty. Almost none of them are Americans. And, as I keep saying, he's moving fast. He's doing things while other people are still trying to decide what to do. As Her Grace points out, it doesn't matter if he makes mistakes, he's moving fast enough and is bright enough to spot and correct them before they become critical. Read The Gallic Wars and The Civil War by one Gaius Julius Caesar and you can see how this worked. It's hilariously funny how people like Boyd and Rummy were going on about "a revolution in military affairs" and "transformation" as if they were something new when all they were doing was implementing lessons that GJC had laid out in those books two thousand years earlier.

He has none of the comforts people are used to (I think?) like computers, TVs, electricity, etc etc. Why would people go to a place like that?

Because they are going to give them up anyway. Hell is a frontier. Nobody except the military has electrical power, computers or most other things. You can bet that when they do start to arrive, New Rome is right at the front in building them. But, think on this. A lot of people will look on a frontier as a challenge "We can start from scratch and build our country just the way we want it. Let's get to it." People with that mentality are exactly the people GJC wants.

As I said, this is mainly due to my lack of knowledge in legal matters, how nations are set up, and probably because I missed plot points in the story, but I'm just trying to make sense of this.

All the seeds here were laid in the first book, especially the epilogue. Buy The Salvation War: Armageddon???? when it comes out. (The printed version is coming soon).

[ray245]

Quick question, do the people in who end up in hell have an accent?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Are the various pseudo-russian nations that we've seen in Stas' works going to be showing up again? They seem like they'd be a strong second behind New Rome for prosperous hell-nations.

[Simon_Jester]

Caesar, above all, in Roman politics, had to be a salesman.

And I think my favourite quote about him was--to roughly paraphrase (it was in the cover of my edition of the Gallic Wars)--that, he actually made plenty of mistakes. He just corrected them so fast that nobody else was able to capitalize on them.

As Darth Wong pointed out, he's got a big advantage that adds to his salesmanship: one of the greatest reputations in the history of humanity. Of the ninety billion dead in Hell, I'd guesstimate that at least ten to twenty percent already know who he is,* and why he is a respectable and worthy leader. A majority of the useful recent-dead with technical educations will.

With that kind of advantage, he's in an even better position than he would be anyway.

*Most of the population of Western Europe and the Mediterranean from the time of the Roman Empire to the present, most of the population of the Americas from after the European colonization, a fair scattering of people from the rest of the world starting from around the time of the Age of Imperialism... I honestly don't know what it adds up to, but I think 10% is a conservative estimate.

The problem is, you're seeing Caesar as either an adversary or an exploitable nation. He is neither. He is a politically-savvy military commander who has distinguished himself as an American ally. Furthermore, he's got some recently-dead American advisors on his side who want to see him succeed. The colonization and integration of Hell into the world economy COULD go the way you're thinking, with imperialists steamrolling in and subjugating everything, but as we've seen in earth's own history this isn't efficient or beneficial in the long term.

On top of that, it's worth remembering that even when they have a technological advantage, imperialists tend to run into trouble when they try to steamroller over someone who is smart, especially when they are also decisive and well-informed about the imperialists, as Caesar is.

They may win in the end, but "the end" can take a decade or two to happen and a great deal of blood and treasure to arrange.

It's hilariously funny how people like Boyd and Rummy were going on about "a revolution in military affairs" and "transformation" as if they were something new when all they were doing was implementing lessons that GJC had laid out in those books two thousand years earlier.

I think that's a bit unfair. As I understand it, the object of this whole "transformation" is to take techniques only a legendary genius like Caesar used in the past and figure out how to teach them to the 'merely competent' majority of commanders. If someone does that, they can make a good case that they're carrying out a revolution. A lot of fields change drastically when someone finds a way for journeymen to accomplish what only the great masters could do before.

Now, whether this is what the "revolution in military affairs" in question is actually going to deliver, whether it really can teach the average commander to be agile and decisive like a Caesar, is another matter entirely. And not issue I'm qualified to discuss. But I don't think the idea of calling it a revolution in the first place is entirely a joke if it performs roughly as advertised.

Zacharael-Lan joined in Michael's merriment. "That I should have such work to do."

A minor angel's a Yid? Oy-veh!

Hey, where do you think the Jews got it from?

[LoofahBoy]

All the seeds here were laid in the first book, especially the epilogue. Buy The Salvation War: Armageddon???? when it comes out. (The printed version is coming soon).

You're going for print?! Hell yeah!

What do you have in mind for a cover? Something ironic or humorous I hope?

[MarshalPurnell]

Cybele was probably an expression of the cthonic "mother goddess" of many primitive Anatolian and Grecian myths, possibly connected to the rough statues of exaggerated female forms such as the Venus of Willendorf. Linked to the underground, caves, mysteries of death and rebirth, and darkness. Her worship included violent and orgiastic public celebrations, rather of a kind with such as Bacchus, and she was served by self-castrating priests who took on the role of her son and lover Attis. There is inevitably a strong link to fertility as seen in the castration-death-resurrection cycle associated with Attis and the sacrifice of blood involved in the creation of Galli. It is argued by Gimbautis and her followers that the prominence of a mother goddess before the emergence of a masculine and warlike pantheon associated with the Indo-Europeans (Dyaus Piter = Zeus Pater = Iupiter = supreme male storm-god et al) was proof of a prehistoric matriarchy ruling Europe. Probably more likely her prehistoric practices involved human sacrifice, since that's what primitive fertility cults usually wind up getting up to and honestly most civilizations seemed to have practiced it in their deep dark early days.

Still, possibly not the nicest ally around.

Am drawn back to Norse mythology of late. The Norse cosmography of nine worlds linked by Yggdrasil is potentially suggestive with the existence of pocket universes. It isn't just that they have a realm for the dead underground, it's that they conceptualize Niflheim and Muspelheim and Asgard and Midgard as different places connected only tenuous through such ephemeral structures as Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge. Not everything has to be explained by the actions of "gods" but it could be something and Norse mythology is certainly more colorful than most. And I was momentarily amused by the idea of Thor starring in the Marvel Studios Thor movie in 2011.

[Simon_Jester]

Wonder how he'd feel about that.

I mean, good publicity is good publicity, and he might play along just because Hollywood knows how to throw a good party. But...?

[dragon]

All the seeds here were laid in the first book, especially the epilogue. Buy The Salvation War: Armageddon???? when it comes out. (The printed version is coming soon).

You're going for print?! Hell yeah!

What do you have in mind for a cover? Something ironic or humorous I hope?

And watch out for all the fundies it's going to offend, hell look at their reaction to (crap can't think of the name) the book after Angels and Demons.

[GrayAnderson]

The Da Vinci Code?

[Simon_Jester]

I had a very random thought:

We know Aeanas despises the recent movie "300," with its ludicrous fictionalization of Thermopylae and unlikely portrayal of the characters involved.

What would he think of the old movie, "300 Spartans,", the one that came out in 1962? He might like that better, or at least dislike it less.

[Setzer]

I'm wondering what the rest of the Julio Claudian clan will do when they're dug up. I can't see Augustus being happy with a number two spot with no prospect of moving up. Even if the stories on Caligula are mostly exaggerated he'll be trouble regardless. Nero might be happier trying to establish Hell's version of Hollywood, though he may end up Hell's version of Uwe Boll.

[Gil Hamilton]

I'm wondering what the rest of the Julio Claudian clan will do when they're dug up. I can't see Augustus being happy with a number two spot with no prospect of moving up. Even if the stories on Caligula are mostly exaggerated he'll be trouble regardless. Nero might be happier trying to establish Hell's version of Hollywood, though he may end up Hell's version of Uwe Boll.

Nero would become the Jon Jeremy of Hellywood. However, I want a scene with Nero's mother going "You are a bad BAD boy!"

[tim31]

Minor sidetrack for Mr Stuart, relating to discussion (much) earlier in the thread. Can you tell what class of ship this is?

[Edward Yee]

No. In case you forgot, America constitutes only 4% of the world's population even at present, and even less when you include thousands of years of history. Honestly, this idea is just downright stupid, not to mention containing the implicit assumption that America's system of laws is a particularly good one.

I think using America's case was just an example on Darth Ruinus' part. On the other hand, it seems like the situation in Hell is considered so unique that simply applying one's own country's law into Hell even broadly (i.e. federal law but not state/provincial/canton) without sufficient analysis/rewriting could lead to legal complications down the line.

[Stuart]

Minor sidetrack for Mr Stuart, relating to discussion (much) earlier in the thread. Can you tell what class of ship this is?

She's an FFG-7, Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate. Class are all over the place these days.

[tim31]

Man, I'm going to have to do better than that to test you! This particular example is the mast of HMAS Newcastle, commissioned as an Adelaide-class of course.