Global Peak (Part 11.0 up 05/29/09).

[JointStrikeFighter]

Why are shells/projectiles any better than missiles if their PD lasers/particle beams are that good?

A shell has a lot more armor/metal to get through before it will fragment, I think.

So? If you can hit them anywhere further out than point-blank, why cannot you simply fix the beam on them for longer? They're not maneuvering, like a missile might. And what you're saying only applies for hardened penetrators.

Guns might also be ble to volume saturate defences at a far lower price.

[CmdrWilkens]

Why are shells/projectiles any better than missiles if their PD lasers/particle beams are that good?

A shell has a lot more armor/metal to get through before it will fragment, I think.

So? If you can hit them anywhere further out than point-blank, why cannot you simply fix the beam on them for longer? They're not maneuvering, like a missile might. And what you're saying only applies for hardened penetrators.

Which goes back to why your options are missile swarm or guns because guns can saturate the target with a lot of metal very quickly and much less expensively than missiles. Moreover the longer the beam has to dwell on an incoming target the less volume of fire you need to get one through the screen. That and guns are a hell of a lot easier tobuild in this era than smart weapons because there is not that much in terms of new high tech production so each missile you expend carries a lot of critical electronics that you may not be able to replace for a long time.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So? If you can hit them anywhere further out than point-blank, why cannot you simply fix the beam on them for longer? They're not maneuvering, like a missile might. And what you're saying only applies for hardened penetrators.

It applies for more than just AP, IP. The shell wall is thicker--also, a shell is harder to knock off course. Inducing tumbling when at point blank range is also very bad. Shells are however still quite hard to get through--a fair number can, in fact, be knocked down. The correct way to look at it is that airstrikes are virtually impossible against a good defence, as are missile attacks, whereas artillery attacks have to be carefully planned with lots of diversions and support like an aircraft raid used to be.

This is of course immaterial in the present world, where nobody has enough money to keep these things fully operational, though it does make nuclear attacks much harder, at least. Anyway, consider the four railguns can fire between them 60 shells in one minute--when the total SSM capacity of a cruiser is about 128 missiles. So in two minutes they can put as much metal on the target from the guns as emptying their entire magazines would. That, and they can store hundreds of rounds per gun. The rounds are MUCH cheaper than missiles, allowing saturation of the target. And of course they're still useful because when bombarding shitcanistans that can't defend against missiles, let alone artillery shells, you want to save money. The world was already in a perpetual economic meltdown in the 2030s--the days of using tomahawks to blow up pickup trucks was long gone.

[Adrian Laguna]

The Kearsarge-class CBGN of which four were finished before the collapse were armed with four railguns in two twin turrets, two 64-cell VLS launchers, and two heavy ASAT-capable particle beam cannon (along with two RAM to back them up defensively, and a three-helicopter hangar).

With that much firepower in one ship, why are they not designated as battleships? They even have enough guns to qualify.

[Stuart Mackey]

The Kearsarge-class CBGN of which four were finished before the collapse were armed with four railguns in two twin turrets, two 64-cell VLS launchers, and two heavy ASAT-capable particle beam cannon (along with two RAM to back them up defensively, and a three-helicopter hangar).

With that much firepower in one ship, why are they not designated as battleships? They even have enough guns to qualify.

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The Kearsarge-class CBGN of which four were finished before the collapse were armed with four railguns in two twin turrets, two 64-cell VLS launchers, and two heavy ASAT-capable particle beam cannon (along with two RAM to back them up defensively, and a three-helicopter hangar).

With that much firepower in one ship, why are they not designated as battleships? They even have enough guns to qualify.

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

I think that's rather excessive of an extension of the possible philosophy. Not like this matters, of course--NOBODY is building large ships anymore.
The 2036 - 2037 commissioned Kearsarges are the last, really.

[Adrian Laguna]

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. The dammed thing is supposed to be the most powerful thing in the fleet when it was commissioned, and it has guns as main armament, it's a battleship in all but name. The question is why the "but name".

[CmdrWilkens]

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. The dammed thing is supposed to be the most powerful thing in the fleet when it was commissioned, and it has guns as main armament, it's a battleship in all but name. The question is why the "but name".

Probably a matter of weight. If the class is in the 25,000 ton range that CG(X) is projected to be in that might be a driving consideration. The last BBs that the US commissioned in the Iowa class still displaced at least 45,000 tons and 58,000 with a full load aboard. Even up to about 30,000 tons or so US Naval folks could probably still classify it as a cruiser since you would have to go back to 1912 and the Nevada class to find a US designated BB under 30,000 tons.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. The dammed thing is supposed to be the most powerful thing in the fleet when it was commissioned, and it has guns as main armament, it's a battleship in all but name. The question is why the "but name".

Probably a matter of weight. If the class is in the 25,000 ton range that CG(X) is projected to be in that might be a driving consideration. The last BBs that the US commissioned in the Iowa class still displaced at least 45,000 tons and 58,000 with a full load aboard. Even up to about 30,000 tons or so US Naval folks could probably still classify it as a cruiser since you would have to go back to 1912 and the Nevada class to find a US designated BB under 30,000 tons.

I said CBGN. Cruiser, Battle. Same Designation as the Alaska class, except nuclear and guided missile.

[Ford Prefect]

Mmm, railguns. I often forget when this is actually set when I'm readining it. Mayabird's story, for example, looks as though it could have come out of just about any time, from the sixties onwards. Only it has hydrogen powered planes. And on that note, Captain Úlfur is like ... Viking Leonaidas or something. Awesome.

[Mayabird]

Mmm, railguns. I often forget when this is actually set when I'm readining it. Mayabird's story, for example, looks as though it could have come out of just about any time, from the sixties onwards. Only it has hydrogen powered planes. And on that note, Captain Úlfur is like ... Viking Leonaidas or something. Awesome.

Why thank you, though I was thinking the captain was channeling Mal Reynolds (heck, he may have seen Firefly as a kid).

That's the thing with the schizoid tech. Modern (for them, futuristic for us) technology exists and is still being manufactured and even advanced and improved in certain enclaves. However, those are the few places that aren't falling apart, have a lot of energy, and have the population and industrial base to do it. Iceland's population today is a little over 300,000, and they probably are still well under a million in 2048. Even though they're still first world, they don't have the population base to be able to build the electronics suites that their ships use, for instance. Icelanders, though, have the money so they can buy it. Elsewhere, if your computer breaks and no one can fix it, it's gone forever. Or it might not be broken, but you don't have the electricity to be able to run it.

I have a germ of a story in this world that I'm calling "Science Marches On" set in Russia, but I don't have the time right now to work on it, and I need to get the one about Mexico completed anyway.

[Stuart Mackey]

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. The dammed thing is supposed to be the most powerful thing in the fleet when it was commissioned, and it has guns as main armament, it's a battleship in all but name. The question is why the "but name".

I was referring to the events of 1905 when HMS Dreadnought was launched, and the subsequent relegation of those capital ships with four large caliber weapons as main armament to second line status and general perception of their expected time afloat when confronted with an all big gun battleship. Perhaps I should have been clearer with or placed a smilie thing for emphasis so as not to confuse people.

[Stuart Mackey]

With that much firepower in one ship, why are they not designated as battleships? They even have enough guns to qualify.

But with only four main guns the first nation to produce an all big gun battleship will have a field day with them- the Kearsage's will be four minute ships overnight.

I think that's rather excessive of an extension of the possible philosophy. Not like this matters, of course--NOBODY is building large ships anymore.
The 2036 - 2037 commissioned Kearsarges are the last, really.

What's your idea of a large ship? Australia and NZ have the resources to build warships of the proportions of WW2 light cruisers, and certainly large civillian ships, and I doubt the ability would have died off overnight or the ability to construct reasonable sensors. Moreover, we also have the capacity to fuel such ships.

[Sea Skimmer]

A battleship by definition and the freaking basic origin of the name is a big ship intended to stand in a battleline against an enemy fleet, this ship sure as shit wasn’t intended for that so its not a battleship. Other features of a battleship include the heaviest possible protection and highest possible caliber gun armament, neither of which this ship has.

I never did get this fetish with trying to redefine what a battleship is so that missile armed escorts can be called battleships. The battleship is dead, just like many other types of warships died out before. Would it make any sense to anyone to redefine what Trireme means to avoid creating the term Aircraft Carrier?

[Ford Prefect]

Why thank you, though I was thinking the captain was channeling Mal Reynolds (heck, he may have seen Firefly as a kid).

Needed more sucking into turbine for that.

I have a germ of a story in this world that I'm calling "Science Marches On" set in Russia, but I don't have the time right now to work on it, and I need to get the one about Mexico completed anyway.

That would be fairly interesting, and probably not very bleak in comparison to everything else written here (which is unusual )

[Adrian Laguna]

I've been thinking about the Mexico invasion of the US. I presume that the way it went was that the FSU told the Mexicans that they didn't give a shit how much land they took, provided they stayed on their side of the Rio Grande. I mean, it would seem just a wee bit stupid if the Mexican government thought they could try to take back Texas.

I never did get this fetish with trying to redefine what a battleship is so that missile armed escorts can be called battleships. The battleship is dead, just like many other types of warships died out before. Would it make any sense to anyone to redefine what Trireme means to avoid creating the term Aircraft Carrier?

I wasn't trying to redefine the battleship, I got distracted by the railguns and thought it met the already established definition. You're right, the Kearsage seems to be more something you make the centrepiece of your task force, like a carrier, not something you build a fleet out of.

[Gil Hamilton]

Why thank you, though I was thinking the captain was channeling Mal Reynolds (heck, he may have seen Firefly as a kid).

That's the thing with the schizoid tech. Modern (for them, futuristic for us) technology exists and is still being manufactured and even advanced and improved in certain enclaves. However, those are the few places that aren't falling apart, have a lot of energy, and have the population and industrial base to do it. Iceland's population today is a little over 300,000, and they probably are still well under a million in 2048. Even though they're still first world, they don't have the population base to be able to build the electronics suites that their ships use, for instance. Icelanders, though, have the money so they can buy it. Elsewhere, if your computer breaks and no one can fix it, it's gone forever. Or it might not be broken, but you don't have the electricity to be able to run it.

I have a germ of a story in this world that I'm calling "Science Marches On" set in Russia, but I don't have the time right now to work on it, and I need to get the one about Mexico completed anyway.

Given that the story is set in 2048, I'd assume that we should plan for the basic technology base to have advanced as it has well into the 2020s at least everywhere.

For example, when I start continuing the story I started in this thread dealing with Chandra and the Ohio River Patrol, I was going to have the ships actually be powered by what today (2008) would be a reasonably futuristic fuel cell; I.E. one that stores hydrogen at very high densities in inorganic complex that when exposed to a light charge evolves hydrogen gas for combustion, which can be "recharged" by filling it back up with a strong reducing agent (like, say, LiAlH4) to saturate the complex again.

Of course, such a energy production has the right flavor of just not being enough. The smallest vehicle you can mount one on is a bus or a river boat, recharging them involves dangerous chemicals, and they, you know, explode under sufficient pressure and temperature. In other words, being one of those miracle technologies that never had time to be refined into something that could have saved society before things fell apart.

If you extrapolate current technology into the future, before things really fall apart their should be some impressive technology in existence, especially with computers.

[Battlehymn Republic]

This is kind of reminiscent of Fallout's handling of different technology levels strewn around the post-apocalyptic landscape.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What's your idea of a large ship? Australia and NZ have the resources to build warships of the proportions of WW2 light cruisers, and certainly large civillian ships, and I doubt the ability would have died off overnight or the ability to construct reasonable sensors. Moreover, we also have the capacity to fuel such ships.

A WW2 light cruiser of the classes of small Royal Navy ones that you're probably thinking of is no bigger than a Spruance, or generously a Ticonderoga or Virginia.

[Stuart Mackey]

What's your idea of a large ship? Australia and NZ have the resources to build warships of the proportions of WW2 light cruisers, and certainly large civillian ships, and I doubt the ability would have died off overnight or the ability to construct reasonable sensors. Moreover, we also have the capacity to fuel such ships.

A WW2 light cruiser of the classes of small Royal Navy ones that you're probably thinking of is no bigger than a Spruance, or generously a Ticonderoga or Virginia.

Yeah, Leander's to Town's. If ships of that size can be constructed then larger vessels will be planned and are doable, trouble is finance and design resources. NZ and Australia can produce fuel, indeed NZ can supply all its fuel needs, plus, for some 300 years if we so choose, and Australia can do the same with its resources, quite apart from potential oil/gas structures in the Southern Ocean so, that's once source of finance.
Would UK planning and design capacity have survived and where would they have gone after the collapse of that nation? I cannot imagine that any UK government would have been so sloppy as not to sow some seeds for potential retribution against France, Aussie and NZ would be a good place to sow those seeds.

[Gil Hamilton]

Another submission of mine to the Global Peak Oil story, which contains more about Chandra and also a bit of history, so its nominally set in the late 20s.

Chandra was there in the early seeds of the FedGov, back before the notion existed, during the 20s. Then he had been an engineering student pursuing his Masters in Electrical Engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and son of a wealthy Indian executive who "retired" to America several months before the automobile manufacturing plants he owned went belly up a decade and a half earlier. He joined the school's Communist organization as a means of annoying his father.

The president of the CMU Communist Party was a miss Andrea Gray; an intelligent, extremely pretty black girl whom hosted a videocast on the 'Net and gave speeches about the failure of capitalism in the United States. Chandra liked her smile most of all, shifting seemlessly to light hearted humor after delivering fiery orations on corrupt businesses, depleting resources and the need for People to organize. So he was there at Market Square when the CPUSA sponsered a "Call to Action" rally during the spring of 2028 that she was due to speak at.

Hundreds of people where there; mostly students, a few union workers and academics. Somewhere around the end of an act of a band playing punk versions of old union songs, several counterprotestors showed up. Chandra at the time thought nothing of them but annoyance; you always got schmucks that showed up at rallies that try to pick fights, usually to film it and post it on the 'Net as proof of liberal violence. Predictably, though, a tussle broke out and the police, who had been keeping a close eye on the rally, descended to break it up.

This, too, was normally what you expected. The tusslers would get dispersed or maybe if they were lucky would be led away in handcuffs, which whether you were a conservative Counterprotestor or a liberal Revolutionary always looked good on the resume. Something went wrong; someone threw a stone, hitting a policeman's visor and caused the nightsticks and mace to come out as they broke up the crowd. There was a mad dash as people struggled to leave and Party organizers pleaded for order. Police cars and ambulances tried to navigate into the Square, because someone had been hurt.

Later that evening, the nation collectively gasped in horror as a video was released on the 'Net of intelligent, extremely pretty Andrea Gray dead on the red brick pavement as a red faced police officer bashed her skull with his billy club.

The trial of Corporal Nathan Michaels was heavily followed on the Networks and the 'Net, sparking outrage across the country and particularly in the Black community. It quickly came out that Michaels was a member of God's Will; a new, increasingly popular evangelical political movement which arose from the collapse of the Republican party in the mid teens that was notorious for incendiary language about fighting for the moral fibre of the nation, often by any means and held a particular grudge toward the Godless Communists who they saw as subverting the country.

The media replayed the clip ad nauseum and was next to useless as they dissected, twisted, and published about the death of Andrea Gray, with pundits of all stripes weighing in to condemn the police for a shocking act of brutality and institutional racism or to insist on the defense of the noble law man, including snide suggestions that the damned communist had it coming. Chandra remembered a old joke that went around the conservative networks; "What do you call a dead nigger commie on the sidewalk?". The answer: "A start!"

Demonstrations arose, mostly demanding his imprisonment but a few demanding his release. However, the mostly peaceful rallies turned to outraged riots in several cities as Nathan Michaels was acquitted of wrongdoing in the death of Andrea Gray and merely was suspended indefinitely from the police force. Law enforcement, having trouble as it was maintaining order with a enormous climb in fuel costs for their cruisers, tried desperately to minimize the damage.

But that came to an end as the police found themselves increasingly under rocks, flaming bottles of alcohol, and occasional gunfire. Then Nathan Michaels was found dead in his home along side his wife and two daughters, their bodies piled under a wall where the word "REVOLUTION" was spray painted in red.

The battle began in earnest as dozens were killed, hundreds injured, and thousands arrested, even before the National Guard was finished deploying to the major cities to bolster the police. Chandra discreetly quit the CMU Communist Party as the authorities were bringing in people who had increasingly tenuous contact with Andrea Gray, having no leads on the slaying of the Michaels family.

It went on for months as the stresses of the people burst at once. Outraged Black leaders preached that the United States had abandoned and were actively hostile to their people, popular socialist groups and God's Will party members both yelling as loud as they could that it was a sign of the end of civilized society and complete moral decline, which was already suffering from seemly unending economic depression and the occasional war, and many Americans desperately trying to keep their heads down but increasingly taking sides.

Chandra finished his degree, married his girlfriend, and quietly went to work in the burgeoning Ohio River Industrial Zone, one of the few places in the country still flourishing, hired to install and maintain High Density Fuel Cell systems on the river boat fleet that was being built as the river became a more and more important avenue of transit to the west. Back from his first day of training to the house they purchased in Emsworth, Chandra remembered telling his wife that even though it seemed like the world was going to hell, he was sure that in the end, everything was going to be alright.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

December 2052,
FedGov occupied Wyoming,
ESE of Cheyenne on the old
UP Transcon.


Fischer-Trosch fueled tanks brought their engines up in the dawn's cold light one after another. Dry, desert, a light dusting of snow for a week before freezing as all's shown, and most of that obscured by the endless lines of three FedGov Armies drawn out in array of battle, one million troops sprawling through Colorado, Wyoming and Nebraska. To the south, Kansas and Oklahoma and Texas were dying as the climate changed, unable to sustain regular agriculture. To the east, Nebraska was abandoned as tens of thousands fled their homes for safety in southern Missouri and Ar-kansas. Everyone knew that the hammer was about to fall.

Racing over the dry high desert, a formation of three helicopters swept over the dirt simple, diesel-fueled versions of M1A2s built with RHA armour only rather than expensive Chobham. Six thousand split between three armies. California had sent tens of thousands of slave labourers to death to extract Uranium from the ruined mines of Utah, but it had gotten their clusters of simple RMBK-type graphite moderated reactors on-line and working, and that was what counted. Enough power to build six thousand tanks. Enough power to build twenty thousand dirt-simple 155mm towed artillery pieces. Enough power to give a million conscripts M-14s and simple stamped-metal SMGs.

And enough money wasted, that could have gone to mitigating the miserable crisis and the deaths by starvation, to put a wing of elderly Russian bombers over the FSU lines in Nebraska, using up the limited stocks of precision-guided munitions to blast their tanks and armoured personnel carriers to bits and strike their command and control apparatus. The helicopters overflying the rail-line bore the same mark, the crimson maple leaf, which served today as a sign of communism as clear as any other.

"So here we go," Catherine Tang murmured breathlessly. "Everyone in position, and those strikes should get someone's attention--we haven't used seventy heavy bombers in one place in a decade. Even Tu-22Ms older than my mother... The Texan Air-Defense Regiments will have to redeploy to stop the threat of airstrikes, and when they do..."

"Well, why not reposition the whole Texas 1st Corps to face against the offensive through Nebraska to liberate Iowa and break through to Chicago that must surely be coming," Colonel Hassan chuckled dryly and shouted over the noise of the turbines and chopping blades. "We'll know within fourty-eight hours."

"And once those lasers are out of range, we'll have no opposition for the artillery." A pause, a grim smile. "Colonel, OPERATION PROKHOROVKA is now at T - 66 hours." Every gun had thirty base-bleed shells, half with HE/Yperite mix impregnated with Lewisite for improved cold-weather performance, half with VX. And there were ten thousand Katyusha trucks supporting them.

I have only starved to death a hundred thousand people for the resources to conduct this offensive. And I will be lucky if it only kills that many of my soldiers besides. But the situation in the East is beyond desperate; if we do not take Denver and then strike out across the Kansas plains where they don't expect us--where they don't realize that we have the bridging equipment to conduct a forced crossing of the Missouri--then the FSU will triumph. But they will not triumph; they cannot withstand this concentration of materiale. Yet if this war does not end in five years, all civilization in North America will surely collapse; can I possibly make the victory that decisive?

She would have to.

The tanks were moving into their starting-off positions, and the infantry ate their hard biscuits soaked in fake coffee and served with a helping of stew doubtless filled with random bits of rabbit and deer and salt beef tough as wood and tried to stay warm in the night by sleeping next to the freshly shut-down engine exhausts. And they too would have wondered what the future would bring for them, in comparison with the cheery ignorance of their childhoods, if it was not for the need to survive having overwhelmed their ability to dream.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm currently trying to decide on the probability that this offensive will fail, thus plunging America into even greater bleakosity.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The main goal in skipping ahead was so that in a couple more mosts (six at most) I could finish up the Civil War and move on from it--I felt I'd rather gotten bogged down in it.

[Zor]

Out of curiousity, have they considered making nuclear tanks. Shep had some skinny on a proposed plan in the sixties or fifties to build them.

Zor