The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Erra]

Ha.

Well, we won't see him, but he's an interesting example because he's one of the few premodern people who can contribute something to modern society. Assuming, of course, that he's still more or less sane after spending 200 years bathing in fire.

I don't know. If I've learned anything about musicians and composers, it's that the quality of their music is inversely related to the amount of sanity they possess.

[Gil Hamilton]

Still missing the point.

Let us say that there is an invisible, intangible dragon in my garage. You cannot interact with it. You cannot perceive it. You cannot be harmed by it, nor can you harm it in return. However, let us say that it can interact with me, and vice versa: to me, the dragon is real. The dragon sets me on fire. You can now observe me being on fire.

Even though you cannot observe what set me on fire, you can plainly observe that something set me on fire. You can further conclude that whatever set me on fire is real, and has tangible effects. It still exists, even if you cannot interact with it directly without the use of instruments such as, say, me.

Likewise, suppose that we have a Universe C entity that can exist with and interact with a Universe B entity, but not a Universe A entity. The UC entity is still "real" and observable to us in UA, because we can observe its effects on UB. This is true in much the same way that we can observe the existence of dark matter- we see its effects on what we can interact with.

To me, that would imply that the dragon and me can still interact. Interaction-by-proxy is still interaction.

An example. My kids in the Organic chemistry class are, in a week or so, going to be doing chirality and get to use the polarimeter. In and of ourselves, there is no way to directly observe chirality OURSELVES. We cannot ourselves interact with a jar of a dextrorotatory molecules and tell they are one chirality or another or a racemic mix. What we need is an instrument that can give us that information by proxy. So, you stick the chemicals in a tube, shine light through a linearly polarizing filter on one end, then adjust a second linearly polarizing filter on the other end to match how the chemicals rotated the light, recording the angle between the two. Thus we get information about the molecular structure of the molecules by proxy; we observe something we CAN interact with (light) to get information that we simply lack the tools to observe directly. This is, in fact, the basic principle of all analytical chemistry.

In the case of you, the invisible, intangible dragon, and myself, I would argue that I can't interact and get information about the dragon because I lack some tool of characteristic that allows you to interact with it. Well and good, I can still get information about the dragon because I have you. Since you can interact with the dragon, you've become my "instrument". By commanding your actions in reference to the dragon and with a reasonably clever set up, I may gain information about the dragon by recording its effects on you and can have you do things to interact with it. If it belches fire on you, I can certainly measure a rate of interaction by measuring the rate of the appearance of combustion of your flesh. If it slashes you with its talons, I can measure the marks it leaves on your skin to get information on the size and structure of its claws. I can even have you rely messages to the dragon.

For me to be truly interactionless with the dragon, I may NEVER see its effects on you. It must affect you in such a way that I can't observe it.

[Simon_Jester]

To me, that would imply that the dragon and me can still interact. Interaction-by-proxy is still interaction.

Strictly, yes. However, in this kind of context interaction by proxy may very, very easily be possible where direct interaction is not. From the way Stuart (as opposed to DKeith) has described Universe C, UC can interact with us, in that it can interact with UB which can in turn interact with us. That doesn't require that UC be able to interact with us directly- it need not be able to speak to us in order to tell someone else to do so.

In the case of you, the invisible, intangible dragon, and myself, I would argue that I can't interact and get information about the dragon because I lack some tool of characteristic that allows you to interact with it. Well and good, I can still get information about the dragon because I have you. Since you can interact with the dragon, you've become my "instrument".

Always wanted to be an experimental animal...

But yes, that's my point. We can interact (indirectly) with Universe C entities, and they do have an effect on us. It's just a question of exactly what those effects are, which we have yet to learn.

[Nematocyst]

This 'punching portals to find gods' thing is very interesting. Earlier posts discussed the possibility of Petraeus forming an alliance with the Viking gods after an awesome entrance.
But does this mean we can punch portals to everything that was (or is) worshipped as a god?

I remember that in a survey taken in Australia, there was a question asking what religion did the person taking the survey practice. 10,000 marked 'Others', then wrote 'Jedi'.
This person is worshipped as a god in certain places.

Does that mean we can get a portal to her or to a Jedi?

[Gil Hamilton]

Strictly, yes. However, in this kind of context interaction by proxy may very, very easily be possible where direct interaction is not. From the way Stuart (as opposed to DKeith) has described Universe C, UC can interact with us, in that it can interact with UB which can in turn interact with us. That doesn't require that UC be able to interact with us directly- it need not be able to speak to us in order to tell someone else to do so.

Then there has been some confusion. I thought you were claiming a complete lack of interaction between C and A, but the possibility of C to B to A interaction.

Always wanted to be an experimental animal...

But yes, that's my point. We can interact (indirectly) with Universe C entities, and they do have an effect on us. It's just a question of exactly what those effects are, which we have yet to learn.

Instrument. You'd be an instrument. Question though; can you do a fourier transform? If you can we can market you for alot more.

C to B to A interaction proves interaction is possible. That implies, with the right set up, C to A interaction should possible and vice versa.

[bogy_shashav]

This 'punching portals to find gods' thing is very interesting. Earlier posts discussed the possibility of Petraeus forming an alliance with the Viking gods after an awesome entrance.
But does this mean we can punch portals to everything that was (or is) worshipped as a god?

I remember that in a survey taken in Australia, there was a question asking what religion did the person taking the survey practice. 10,000 marked 'Others', then wrote 'Jedi'.
This person is worshipped as a god in certain places.

Does that mean we can get a portal to her or to a Jedi?

Heh...What do ya know...japanese did invade Australia after all and seem to be winning. Oh delicious irony....

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

This 'punching portals to find gods' thing is very interesting. Earlier posts discussed the possibility of Petraeus forming an alliance with the Viking gods after an awesome entrance.
But does this mean we can punch portals to everything that was (or is) worshipped as a god?

I remember that in a survey taken in Australia, there was a question asking what religion did the person taking the survey practice. 10,000 marked 'Others', then wrote 'Jedi'.
This person is worshipped as a god in certain places.

Does that mean we can get a portal to her or to a Jedi?

Given that many of these 'gods' seem to have been around for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years . . . probably not. Though one could say the other pretenders may have possessed people and made them spread their gospels, but that would seem to be in violation with the deal they struck with Yahweh and Satan, and this deal seems to have been in place since at least classical Greco-Roman times, if not the dawn of human civilization on Earth.

It is just as likely that Jedi worship, Haruhiism, general animu otakuism, and other modern Lovecraftian horrors are the result of daemonic possession of humans by minions working for the various Dukes of Hell to vie for more human souls to be sent to their particular domains; or in angelic/daemonic competitions to see who can convince more humans to do stupid things.

[Gil Hamilton]

Why must all religion be of supernatural origin? Humans are perfectly capable of convincing themselves of supernatural baloney and building social structure around it without help from actual supernatural beings. Not all Gods need have any basis in reality, even in the Salvation War.

[Pelranius]

Well, strictly speaking, demonically/angelically inspired religions are supernatural, now that the TSWverse has a better understanding of that.

There are also cults for the aggrandizement of their creators (i.e. a certain CoS) and then there are personality cults centered around dictatorships. I somehow find that Supreme Ayatollah Khomenei and Papa Doc Duvalier would not be 'deities' while the Jedi could be to be stretching credulity, especially when you consider the fanaticism and numbers of their followers compared to the general Star Wars fan.

[GrayAnderson]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the quick and easy fix for this.

Just block off the portal! Seriously, just dump a fuck-ton of rocks on it and problem solved.

Except, that would not work out so well for the dead of earth, who begin their second life from there.

There's also the fact that portal-making seems to be in relatively ready supply.

And...just because I can't talk directly with someone doesn't mean we can't communicate. It just means that we need an intermediary who can pass notes. It's sort of like in grade school, two friends across a classroom. They can't pass the note directly to eachother, but the kids in the middle can pass the note across (unless the teacher catches them...something worth considering here, too).

[DKeith2011]

Not to derail the conversation, but I can't help but think of this as the human theme song during TSW.

[Ruadhan2300]

if the universe were a grade school.....who's the teacher? and who's the teacher's pet? and what the heck are we studying? >.>

I love stretching metaphors

Addendum: and oh hell yes that song is great for this story.

[EdBecerra]

Ha.

Well, we won't see him, but he's an interesting example because he's one of the few premodern people who can contribute something to modern society. Assuming, of course, that he's still more or less sane after spending 200 years bathing in fire.

Actually, that might make his music even MORE creative...

Ed.

[GrayAnderson]

You know, an interesting point just came to mind: What if Yahweh and Satan were, in fact, from Universe C rather than Universe B (as I think we've generally been assuming)? All that we got from those two and their race was at most a page or two of viewpoint. Building on this, it might stand that Yahweh and Satan couldn't go to Earth for more than a brief stay (i.e. meeting Moses on the mountain)...if we understand the Second Lifers as being effectively "from" Universe C (where their bodies are generated) and we put the inability to keep them alive on Earth for more than a quick visit down to physics incompatibilities (nobody could figure out why Dawkins just started "slipping away"), that explains a lot.

Of course, I could be wrong (I know that Ehlmas was supposed to lead the Angelic Army against the human forces, but I think even that was restricted to Heaven and there was no real talk of an extended Earthly deployment for him, and I think that Michael was retrieving stuff from Vegas for him rather than going there with him), but it's at least something to think about.

if the universe were a grade school.....who's the teacher? and who's the teacher's pet? and what the heck are we studying? >.>

I love stretching metaphors

1) I don't think I want to know.
2) Caesar.
3) Clearly, "Intro to Celestial Reordering"

[Nematocyst]

It is just as likely that Jedi worship, Haruhiism, general animu otakuism, and other modern Lovecraftian horrors are the result of daemonic possession of humans by minions working for the various Dukes of Hell to vie for more human souls to be sent to their particular domains; or in angelic/daemonic competitions to see who can convince more humans to do stupid things.

Like Lakheenahuknaasi. But Haruhi and the Jedis are/were far more successful 'deities' than she was.

You know, an interesting point just came to mind: What if Yahweh and Satan were, in fact, from Universe C rather than Universe B (as I think we've generally been assuming)? All that we got from those two and their race was at most a page or two of viewpoint. Building on this, it might stand that Yahweh and Satan couldn't go to Earth for more than a brief stay (i.e. meeting Moses on the mountain)...if we understand the Second Lifers as being effectively "from" Universe C (where their bodies are generated) and we put the inability to keep them alive on Earth for more than a quick visit down to physics incompatibilities (nobody could figure out why Dawkins just started "slipping away"), that explains a lot.

Of course, I could be wrong (I know that Ehlmas was supposed to lead the Angelic Army against the human forces, but I think even that was restricted to Heaven and there was no real talk of an extended Earthly deployment for him, and I think that Michael was retrieving stuff from Vegas for him rather than going there with him), but it's at least something to think about.

We could directly interact with Satan and Ehlmas (by blowing them up), something which I thought was impossible.
Unless UC beings in UB can be interacted with by UA, which also raises interesting points.
About Dawkins 'slipping', the demons could slip too, but they compensated with the same power that charges their tridents. Dead demons slipped almost immediately.

Not to derail the conversation, but I can't help but think of this as the human theme song during TSW.

Nice. Very nice.

[JBG]

Not to derail the conversation, but I can't help but think of this as the human theme song during TSW.

As an old time heavy metal fan who cut his teeth on acid rock and the classics of 1971 that is pretty damn good. A bit more edge to the riff and a sharper lead break ...

Just listened to some Sabaton. Too formulaic and threatrical for my tastes. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath has more gravitas.

We could start a good thread on appropriate heavy metal but it probably belongs elsewhere.

[nobody_really]

And...just because I can't talk directly with someone doesn't mean we can't communicate. It just means that we need an intermediary who can pass notes. It's sort of like in grade school, two friends across a classroom. They can't pass the note directly to each other, but the kids in the middle can pass the note across (unless the teacher catches them...something worth considering here, too).

I don't think this Universe A -> Universe B -> Universe C interaction would work especially well, because we don't have any guarantees that the intermediary will convey the message accurately either from our side or from the others. If that's the case, we don't have a game of note passing, but instead a game of telephone. And we have absolutely zero evidence in story that anything going through the Minos Gate more than once will have any way to interact with us. And I'm pretty sure Stuart has explicitly mentioned that what's on the other side of the Minos Gate represents the mystery of death and we will have far less information about it than we do in-story about The (original) Message. The only portals we know about that the Demons have pushed through are to our universe and very few to other pockets in their own universe.

Now, I haven't read through all the discussions (I still need to get through the second half of the first Armageddon??? thread and all the first Pantheocide thread) so there may have been information in there that I am missing, and if so, I'll retract this statement. But for now, I don't remember any information that "adjacent but non-linked" universes must necessarily be able to interact. Also, if people are referring to something else besides what's on the other side of the Minos Gate as "Universe C," then of course what I've just written is a bunch of hogwash.

[Simon_Jester]

Actually, that might make his music even MORE creative...

Ed.

Creative? Yes. Good? Not necessarily.

[iidave]

if the universe were a grade school.....who's the teacher? and who's the teacher's pet? and what the heck are we studying? >.>

1) Azathoth
2) Cthulhu
3) Not certain, but the textbook was written by Abdul Al-Hazred

And yes, that song is awesome.

[Simon_Jester]

Instrument. You'd be an instrument. Question though; can you do a fourier transform? If you can we can market you for alot more.

The current generation of software can perform Fourier transforms with difficulty; upgrading is possible.
[takes refresher course on partial differential equations]

[Jero]

What if the other side of Minos Gate is Universe D or E?

[Kuroji]

If it's D or E, it may as well be Universe Z as far as anyone's concerned -- there's no way, in that case, for Universe B or anything in it to interact with anything in there. Though someone taking a visit from Universe C would be able to go through it if it led to Universe D.

[Simon_Jester]

Frankly, I'm a bit dubious about the strict "no interaction more than one universe apart" rule; there may be some things that propagate across differences wider than that without all things propagating. Though since there's no easy way to guess what would do so, that might not matter.

[Junghalli]

Frankly, I'm a bit dubious about the strict "no interaction more than one universe apart" rule; there may be some things that propagate across differences wider than that without all things propagating. Though since there's no easy way to guess what would do so, that might not matter.

I would think there would probably be a survivability continuum that varied with complexity. The more complex a structure, the easier it would be for a relatively minor change in physics to mess it up. E.g. a human is much more sensitive than a sculpture.

I could be very wrong about that though - it's not informed by anything but the principle that it's in principle easier to mess up complex things than simple ones, because complex things have more potential failure points.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. Fire a laser into Universe D from Universe A and it may well get through in more or less recognizable form. Send a man through, and he may wind up getting warped into a donut shape, turned inside out, and exploded. Dunno.