The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[MGlBlaze]

Well, what proof does Satan have that his worldview is wrong? All he has to go on is hearsay from Abigor that humans somehow got powerful enough to curbstomp 60 legions of demons, which to even the smartest demon growing up in Hell, sounds hella absurd. It's just like if a Bronze Age peasant described a black triangular bird that passed overhead, shat out some rocks, and then caused everything to explode. Satan was definitely arrogant, but not an idiot.

Of course, I define intelligence by what someone could reasonably be able to assume based on the data they have. There are other perfectly valid defitions that go by how much knowledge someone had total, or by the results of what they do.

To further illustrate your point: That peasant doesn't understand the concept of "explosion". He would say a huge thunder followed by great fires, or something along these lines.

Yeah, I see what you're both getting at. Things like that are how they would be described by those who did not understand what was going on, and after relaying the information the best they could to their superiors who didn't see what was happening first-hand, it would sound absurd, over-exaggerated etc. .

For another example, one of the human levies (or was it another angel?) describing the nuke as a 'flash bang' or something along those lines. That really doesn't quite make a nuke sound as devastating as it should.

Intelligence and a lack of understanding aren't really the same thing.

[MGlBlaze]

I didnt think UB could interact with UC. Sure, 2nd lifers might because they come from UC, but demons cant go there, I seem to remember there being a mention of that somewhere. So can UB beings go to UC at all? Can UC beings go to UB? I dont remember reading anywhere where Stuart says UC-UB interaction is possible. Communication i can believe in, as there has to be some way for Yah-yah and Satan to divvy up the souls, but actually going to each other; i dont know.

I didn't think so either, considering anyone and anything that goes through the Minos Gate never comes back. Not to mention, as I'm fairly sure Stuart pointed out, what could be beyond that gate might be anything; It could be UD, UE, Superverse A or anything else.

You have a good point about the communication though, considering there was at some point a way to sort the souls out and change where they were headding; like Yah-Yah choosing to send everyone to Hell after a certain point.

[Pelranius]

The scariest thing to me is that UC might be including additional "programming" into all the bodies it's sending into UC, creating a huge dump of sleeper agents, in case UB/UA ever try anything daft, like "probing" the Minos Gate a bit too hard. There's really no way of knowing, and also, there is no way of knowing their motivation for recycling human souls. That alone is a scary item.

Well, in that case wouldn't it more simple just to try to assert control over Universe B and simply 'wall' it off from Universe A as much as possible. After all, if you can send in sleeper agents and such, you probably could mount a hostile takeover down the line and one would have at least a few million years to try the idea.

[Stuart]

For another example, one of the human levies (or was it another angel?) describing the nuke as a 'flash bang' or something along those lines. That really doesn't quite make a nuke sound as devastating as it should.

And yet, Flash-bang is an exact translation of how Japanese survivors of the Hiroshima laydown described the atomic bomb. Pika-don.

[Saint_007]

Mainly because when somebody says "flash-bang" in our terminology, everybody thinks of those dinky little weapons SWAT use to disorient opponents. For what it's worth, though, the "flash bang" will most likely stick around in Angelic memory as an example of the horrific powers of humans, at least until they get used to the names we use (nukes, A-bombs, etc...)

In any case, the most recent chapter was quite a show-stopper. I wasn't expecting the Michael-Yahweh showdown, but now that it's on, we can only wait till the end. And either way, it's the end for Yahweh. He either gets killed and that's the end of it, or he wins/survives, but is no longer capable of maintaining absolute obedience from his flock. That would make him increasingly desperate and he'll do stupid stuff like throw his soldiers en masse into the meat-grinder. Remember how scared Satan sounded at the end of his reign? Yahweh might actually realize he's not the invincible, omnipotent creator he once thought he was, and he'll just be a better target for the HEA as a result.

Assuming Michael wins, and is not immediately beset by Azrael, Elhmas, or some other loyalist or someone with their own agenda, that's going to be all she wrote. He calls out his posse to the command structure, issues a formal surrender to the HEA, and assuming he issues an unconditional surrender or manages to make some favorable terms, he keeps Heaven while the Humans get to work on the three D's - De-Militarization, De-"Yahweh-fication", Democratization.

[MGlBlaze]

For another example, one of the human levies (or was it another angel?) describing the nuke as a 'flash bang' or something along those lines. That really doesn't quite make a nuke sound as devastating as it should.

And yet, Flash-bang is an exact translation of how Japanese survivors of the Hiroshima laydown described the atomic bomb. Pika-don.

I never knew that, actually; thanks for that interesting little piece of information, Stuart.

Also in retrospect I should have really said " doesn't quite make a nuke sound as devastating as it really is" instead, but oh well.

Thinking about it some more, 'flash-bang' would actually be a pretty good description considering the circumstances; they don't know what a nuke is. From their Point of View all that happened was a very bright flash, a very, very loud sound and everything within a very large radius being glassed. I still don't really think it conveys the point that well (but then as Saint_007 pointed out, it might just be because I'm associating it with flashbang grenades) but it makes sense.

[yaque]

Heh, some people upthread were decrying the lack of basic narrative tension in the story.

Looks to me like humanity is having to rush headlong into a situation that looks like another curbstomp, but with almost complete ignorance regarding the larger context.

Not that we have much choice.

I'm sure that Patraeus and the council of fifteen (what was it called?) are deeply worried about what's really behind the whole Heaven, Hell, Yahweh and Satan setup and what else there is.

For the first time in at least three hundred years the "map" of the world humanity has to deal with is not closed and finite and more or less known.
Now it's "here be dragons" all around us. "Unknown unknowns". Heh.

I think that must be part of why the conquest of Heaven seems so rushed.
Patraeus is worried about what might intervene.

First, there's some kind of ongoing mechanism that "scans" humans at death (or from birth?) and "prints" them out through Minos gate in an "improved" form. Kinda like Riverworld.
Creepy.
Is it automatic or directed by "Somebody" in the "C" universes?
Benevolent, Malevolent, Indifferent, Inattentive or Gone?

Second, What for?
The present "Catholic"-like rationale doesn't seem to make much sense.
(and really hasn't for a thousand years)
So who's really in charge? Yahweh? Uh...
I think the whole setup was established as something completely different
(somebody's high school science experiment?) and over eons with the gradual degeneration of Yahweh, became the perversion we see now.

Third, There are any number of other powers, species, worlds and universes who are still "out there". Or were. And who might suddenly get involved. Or are already involved.
Are they friendly? Or not? How powerful are they?

Fourth, Hell is a big place, and it was mentioned that the Demons have been trashing
"A" Universe worlds for millennia. I'll bet there might be remnants, colonies or whole civilizations of complete aliens out there in Hell that we haven't noticed yet.
(Probably less in Heaven, it seems they've mostly kept to themselves, except for Yahweh's pet collection)

So, I rather think that, parallel to the invasion of Heaven and the consolidation of the Demon realm in Hell, there must be a large number of research groups frantically probing Minos gate, interrogating Demons about their history in detail, interrogating the few uninjured angels they have, researching the physics of the Multiverse, surveying Hell and Heaven.

Looking for the next Boojum that's sure to jump out at us.

I wouldn't be in the shoes of the Human leadership for anything.



Hi, y'all, I've been lurking for a couple of months
(blew a whole weekend reading the Armageddon War)
Hope I can contribute.

[GrayAnderson]

You know, an odd thought comes to mind that I'm sure has been said. Currently I am a Catholic; I settled on this about five years ago. I was raised Episcopalian, but there was an interesting intervening stage of Deism. I raise this point because Deism does seem quite well-suited to this world (even if not a monotheistic version):

There are great powers out there, possibly beyond human comprehension (as, in some sense, virtually any deity is). They clearly made the Minos Gate, and for all that we know they are also responsible for the world as we know it and life as we know it. For all of the in-universe mess with Yahweh and Satan, I suspect that in this universe I would be inclined towards a respectful (if nervous) reverence for these unknown powers...not likely wanting to attract their attention (the old Chinese curse of "may you come to the attention of those in power" leaps to mind), but also offering some degree of appreciation for the fact that the Minos Gate does exist (even if I have an unpleasant opinion of their inclinations concerning minding the store, in the face of something I can't comprehend I will probably err on the side of not raising the issue). Having an afterlife is, all else being equal, better than not having one.

So there's clearly intelligent design somewhere in the system, albeit seemingly of the Deistic variety (the "clockmaker", if you will) rather than the more recent "creationism by another name" variety.

[darksoul]

You know, an odd thought comes to mind that I'm sure has been said. Currently I am a Catholic; I settled on this about five years ago. I was raised Episcopalian, but there was an interesting intervening stage of Deism. I raise this point because Deism does seem quite well-suited to this world (even if not a monotheistic version):

There are great powers out there, possibly beyond human comprehension (as, in some sense, virtually any deity is). They clearly made the Minos Gate, and for all that we know they are also responsible for the world as we know it and life as we know it. For all of the in-universe mess with Yahweh and Satan, I suspect that in this universe I would be inclined towards a respectful (if nervous) reverence for these unknown powers...not likely wanting to attract their attention (the old Chinese curse of "may you come to the attention of those in power" leaps to mind), but also offering some degree of appreciation for the fact that the Minos Gate does exist (even if I have an unpleasant opinion of their inclinations concerning minding the store, in the face of something I can't comprehend I will probably err on the side of not raising the issue). Having an afterlife is, all else being equal, better than not having one.

So there's clearly intelligent design somewhere in the system, albeit seemingly of the Deistic variety (the "clockmaker", if you will) rather than the more recent "creationism by another name" variety.

careful. Saying that in the face of something you don't comprehend you don't ask is precisely the mindset that led angels and daemons to their downfall.
The whole point of this work is to show that the only thing a human can't comprehend is that he doesn't know yet.
Curiosity and experimentation as the basis of knowledge, as always has been.
I suppose we must be careful with beings of such power. But I don't see humans in this Universe as believing in Gods anymore.
Even if is known that humans were bio enginereed, theirs lives directed and their deaths foreseen and taken as the beginning of a second existance, that's not going to return the God Revered status. It would cause other reactions, awe, distrust, anger, thankfulness, depending. But not reverence to a supreme being or a creator. The way humans are depicted in the novels, i think most would resent such meddling even if it proves itself benign. Specially know that they have first hand experience of being lied by most powerful races. I for one, if i were to live there, wouldn't worship anything and anyone besides what I know and that I know nothing.

Not to say, of course, that maybe as a survival strategy against an impossibly powerful enemy, humanity would be FORCED into worship. Then again, this is a "humanity defeated and enslaved" scenario, not a "humanity cheated into worshipping an idiot again" scenario.

Don't know if that's clear enough, I'm not that good in English...

[GrayAnderson]

You know, an odd thought comes to mind that I'm sure has been said. Currently I am a Catholic; I settled on this about five years ago. I was raised Episcopalian, but there was an interesting intervening stage of Deism. I raise this point because Deism does seem quite well-suited to this world (even if not a monotheistic version):

There are great powers out there, possibly beyond human comprehension (as, in some sense, virtually any deity is). They clearly made the Minos Gate, and for all that we know they are also responsible for the world as we know it and life as we know it. For all of the in-universe mess with Yahweh and Satan, I suspect that in this universe I would be inclined towards a respectful (if nervous) reverence for these unknown powers...not likely wanting to attract their attention (the old Chinese curse of "may you come to the attention of those in power" leaps to mind), but also offering some degree of appreciation for the fact that the Minos Gate does exist (even if I have an unpleasant opinion of their inclinations concerning minding the store, in the face of something I can't comprehend I will probably err on the side of not raising the issue). Having an afterlife is, all else being equal, better than not having one.

So there's clearly intelligent design somewhere in the system, albeit seemingly of the Deistic variety (the "clockmaker", if you will) rather than the more recent "creationism by another name" variety.

careful. Saying that in the face of something you don't comprehend you don't ask is precisely the mindset that led angels and daemons to their downfall.
The whole point of this work is to show that the only thing a human can't comprehend is that he doesn't know yet.
Curiosity and experimentation as the basis of knowledge, as always has been.
I suppose we must be careful with beings of such power. But I don't see humans in this Universe as believing in Gods anymore.
Even if is known that humans were bio enginereed, theirs lives directed and their deaths foreseen and taken as the beginning of a second existance, that's not going to return the God Revered status. It would cause other reactions, awe, distrust, anger, thankfulness, depending. But not reverence to a supreme being or a creator. The way humans are depicted in the novels, i think most would resent such meddling even if it proves itself benign. Specially know that they have first hand experience of being lied by most powerful races. I for one, if i were to live there, wouldn't worship anything and anyone besides what I know and that I know nothing.

Not to say, of course, that maybe as a survival strategy against an impossibly powerful enemy, humanity would be FORCED into worship. Then again, this is a "humanity defeated and enslaved" scenario, not a "humanity cheated into worshipping an idiot again" scenario.

Don't know if that's clear enough, I'm not that good in English...

Well, it depends on what you read into what I'm saying. My read is that the angels and demons made several grave errors:
1) They did not seek out technological progress in any meaningful way, even where they might have had the capability to do so on hand (in the form of demons such as Belial).
2) Compounding this, they did not seek to keep an eye on their neighbors (i.e. us) and check into what they were doing. You can't tell me that Belial (or another one of the demons, or the angels) couldn't have swiped a Cadillac at some point and tried to sort out the internal combustion engine. I mean, hell, the demons had at their disposal nearly every scientist, engineer, technician, etc. of the last few centuries and they didn't bother to ask what the hell the humans were up to! And you can't tell me that among those sets you wouldn't have found a set that could work together who wouldn't have gotten the demons up to at least WW2-era technology in exchange for them and their families not being tortured.
3) Finally, everyone on that side of the war got airs of infallibility and invincibility. Sure, in such a sweep, they'd lose a couple of dozen demons. Maybe even a couple of hundred or a thousand to well-planned guerrilla attacks over the time it might take to sweep up the planet. They'd lose more to their commanders getting hungry on a slow day than to enemy action.

I in no way said that we shouldn't look at what's going on with the Minos Gate. I did, however, acknowledge that there is a good chance that I probably wouldn't have any hope of understanding it if such is even possible at this point. Honestly, it's possible that the underlying physics are so alien that they'd make my mind break (well, not literally, but you get my meaning).

Finally, I said I would revere them for their apparent and demonstrable power. I can observe that this thing they have built does, in fact, raise the dead in some way that I do not understand. I can observe that it doesn't seem to work with known physics, and that nobody who comes out can apparently remember anything about the other side. I can also observe that anything which goes in does not come back out.

So, based on these observations, there are beings with a great amount of power, highly advanced technology of some sort, and access to a place which I cannot go. They may not be omnipotent, but I sure don't want to be around if they get angry; they may not be omniscient, but if I were to find out about their abilities with mental communication (especially if it some how gets through tin foil hats), it's a respectable approximation. Oh, and if they wish to attack me they can do so from a presently impregnable position. That sounds like somebody who I would rather not fight.

Permit me to point back to an earlier point I made: If we are faced with an enemy in a position which I have just described, who are in Universe C and who we can't get at, what do we do if they want something? We negotiate. We may be able to attack them if they come at us, but under the circumstances the only safe assumption is one of a rather decent amount of power being on the other end.

So yes, I'm going to revere them. Not worship, but revere. Regard with a great deal of respect. Thank for the fact that I do have that second life to look forward to. And sure as hell not tick off if I can help it. Ideal situation? Maybe not. But it's the situation on the ground right now. Somebody out there is sufficiently advanced to qualify as magical in the face of current technology, and while I'm going to look for answers, in the meantime I'm going to damn well be respectful and thankful for the situation I'm in. We got lucky with the first two; I'm not going to bet on such a situation repeating itself.

Edit: To put this another way, there is a difference between me being thankful for something you have done for me and recognizing that you are in a superior position to me in some regard and acting accordingly on the one hand, and being absolutely and unflinchingly loyal to the point of ignorance of reality and facts on the other.

[Gogyra]

You know, an odd thought comes to mind that I'm sure has been said. Currently I am a Catholic; I settled on this about five years ago. I was raised Episcopalian, but there was an interesting intervening stage of Deism. I raise this point because Deism does seem quite well-suited to this world (even if not a monotheistic version)

The fact that these universe C beings appear to have engineered some sort of afterlife in no way implies that they or anyone else is responsible for the creation of the Universe. Also I would be hesitant to revere these beings when we have no idea whether or not their reasons for creating an afterlife for us was benevolent. Certainly, beings of such technological sophistication deserve a healthy amount of respect, but reverence tends to imply a high level of positive feelings - you might revere a war hero or a saint, but not a mad scientist, even though all deserve much of some kind of respect. TSW humans currently have no reason to feel one way or another towards the universe-C beings.

[Scorpio]

Well, it depends on what you read into what I'm saying. My read is that the angels and demons made several grave errors:
1) They did not seek out technological progress in any meaningful way, even where they might have had the capability to do so on hand (in the form of demons such as Belial).
2) Compounding this, they did not seek to keep an eye on their neighbors (i.e. us) and check into what they were doing. You can't tell me that Belial (or another one of the demons, or the angels) couldn't have swiped a Cadillac at some point and tried to sort out the internal combustion engine. I mean, hell, the demons had at their disposal nearly every scientist, engineer, technician, etc. of the last few centuries and they didn't bother to ask what the hell the humans were up to! And you can't tell me that among those sets you wouldn't have found a set that could work together who wouldn't have gotten the demons up to at least WW2-era technology in exchange for them and their families not being tortured.
3) Finally, everyone on that side of the war got airs of infallibility and invincibility. Sure, in such a sweep, they'd lose a couple of dozen demons. Maybe even a couple of hundred or a thousand to well-planned guerrilla attacks over the time it might take to sweep up the planet. They'd lose more to their commanders getting hungry on a slow day than to enemy action.

Before I begain I would like to acknowege that this is a nitpick.

In reading this forum I've come across this sentiment a few times and I'm pretty sure its been adressed, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in on it. I feel that this is saying that if the deamons could have advanced to at leaste a WWII level then they could have won but this is just not true. Modern armies are orders of magnitude deadlier then their WWII counterparts. Looking at tanks only a WWII tigers frontal armor was able to stop just about any round we could throw at it and its 88 mm main gun could punch through just about any allied tanks armor, now compare that to an M1 abrams, it's capable of fireing FSDSLRP's wich could easily punch through the tigers armor and the 88 mm would probably just scratch the M1s armor and all the while the abrams is running circles around the tiger. If the deamons had teched up then the fight would have taken longer and probably cost a bit more but the outcome would never have been in dout. In order to have any kind of a chance the deamons would have to be at least on parity with us and no more then like 5-10 years behind, and I think that would be a strech. And if that was the case then there's always our standard fallback of reduceing the entire invadeing army to a series of glowing craters.

[iidave]

WW2 tech is no match for the stuff we had today (although most of it was built in the 80s and designed in the 70s to fight wars of the 60s). But demons could use the billions of laborers and vast resources at their disposal to recreate eastern front of WW2. Sure, the King Tiger's front armour was never penetrated during WW2, but the side that was using them still lost.
Or they could use their own distinct technologies/abilities and create an army of land batteships (like the planned P1000) with rayguns (tridents on steroids) supported by teleporting Baldrick commandos, resulting in a funny twist on 1950s alien invasion dramas, where the aliens are in 1950s and humans are the technologically advanced yet outnumbered side. Exhale.

[Ilya Muromets]

WW2 tech is no match for the stuff we had today (although most of it was built in the 80s and designed in the 70s to fight wars of the 60s). But demons could use the billions of laborers and vast resources at their disposal to recreate eastern front of WW2. Sure, the King Tiger's front armour was never penetrated during WW2, but the side that was using them still lost.
Or they could use their own distinct technologies/abilities and create an army of land batteships (like the planned P1000) with rayguns (tridents on steroids) supported by teleporting Baldrick commandos, resulting in a funny twist on 1950s alien invasion dramas, where the aliens are in 1950s and humans are the technologically advanced yet outnumbered side. Exhale.

... aaand that would mean that they'd be a considerable military threat. A considerable military threat whose expres purpose is the subjugation of Earth and dragging everyone off to Hell. Which would necessitate the use of tactical nuclear weapons very damn quickly into the whole conflict. Then people complain about the story being too fucking short.

Seriously. If you got the massive numbers of demons with WW2-era technology coupled with their ability to take far more physical damage per soldier than humans ever could, you think humanity would sit around with thumbs in their asses just to stubbornly fight a conventional war when there's a very real chance of being overrun?

[darksoul]

I guess the problem with demons and WW2 tech is not the tech per se, but the influence of this tech in their internal wars and politics. The brain paths required to use and maintain this technology would put them slowly but surely in the same path of tecnological development than us. So the problem is not precisely how dangerous is a WW2 army against modern weaponry, but rather, how dangerous is the WW2 strategy against the modern one, and how quickly can this mind evolve on modern concepts.

It has been pointed that a Bronze Age army has a specific mindset that impedes them to understand a lot of things that happened in the war. But a WW2 army knows about tanks, planes, barb wire, trench warfare, and a lot other concepts still present in some way. outdated undestanding, but a supersonic plane is, after all, a very fast plane, not a "flying chariot" anymore. Nuclear weapons, missiles, and chemical and biological weapons would be a nasty surprise, but surprises that can be conceptualized (although I'm not sure whether they could be resisted).
For example a WW2 army would have never opened a portal they can't close, and would never had gone twice against a position so strong as the one in the first battle. One yes, but the second time it would already be clear that that is not the way to go.

More important, a WW2 army would be clear on the concepts of fifth column (not to confuse with the berserks), behind enemy lines sabotage or decapitation strikes (not that they could pull one out, but they would try) and basic concepts such as outflanking and surrounding the enemy with high mobility units and artillery preparation. Not to mention they would know fron the start the high social and economical strain a war of this scale brings in humanity, and they would use that to their advantage. Factories and supplies would have become primary targets, which would lead to portal warfare. Strategy would have been very, very much advanced than the one displayed. no doubt we'll win, but it wouldn't be an easy win, even with nukes.

And we are not even thinking of what a WW2 baldrick army could do if they had realized the potential of portal warfare that Petraus used. I don't know what effect a demon armored division pouring out of a portal east of Washington and going back in on another portal on the west would have in everything the city puts between the two... They would only need a sahara or artic earth base to the hell to hell portals, and we are looking at one very tough scenario.

All in all, if demons were to advance to that tech level with the aid of deceased humans, they wouldn't have any reason to stop there mentally. And it has already been agreed that the baldricks' weakness was mental (they don't question their environment as we do), social (obedience to their liege and oppression to their serfs) and political, so to speak(Satan's an idiot, and their political structure couldn't function as a whole). A typical feudal society, that can't socially or economically resist a capitalist system. Plus they liked backstabbing a little too much for my taste


Now, back to the nukes, I have a question. Strategically, what would have happened if Abigor woudl have used kamikaze armies in certain places, specially American mainland, where the counter strike with nuclears would have been suicidal. More interestingly, how about tossing second life humans back with bombs strapped in their bodies? Specially if these second life humans are those killed in action, and therefore show their comrade the fate expecting them upon dying. The blow in morale would have been terrible. So the question is, can we use nukes on every army that attack us in this scenario? And more important: if we do, would there be Earth enough left for us to live in?After all, I don't believe anyone can fool themselves thinking that the reason nuclear weapons are not used convetionally is other than their high production cost and the fact that the area of impact is unusable for long periods of time, with unpredictable consequences on the environment. If there were to be a clean nuclear weapon, it would be used more often regardless of human casualties. We are not as humane as we like to think we are, after all.

To sum up, a WW2 baldrick army would be impossible, because the very setting of hell, its society and the historical records of the Celestial War (a WW2 mind would not have standstill the angels, but crushed them) made it impossible. Belial is more remarkable in this regard, along with Abigor, as the most progressive school of thought in demonic warfare. They were the only ones to realize that their war making was antique and needed to be changed, one strategically, and the other technologically. Kudos to them.

[Ilya Muromets]

Now, back to the nukes, I have a question. Strategically, what would have happened if Abigor woudl have used kamikaze armies in certain places, specially American mainland, where the counter strike with nuclears would have been suicidal. More interestingly, how about tossing second life humans back with bombs strapped in their bodies? Specially if these second life humans are those killed in action, and therefore show their comrade the fate expecting them upon dying. The blow in morale would have been terrible. So the question is, can we use nukes on every army that attack us in this scenario? And more important: if we do, would there be Earth enough left for us to live in?After all, I don't believe anyone can fool themselves thinking that the reason nuclear weapons are not used convetionally is other than their high production cost and the fact that the area of impact is unusable for long periods of time, with unpredictable consequences on the environment. If there were to be a clean nuclear weapon, it would be used more often regardless of human casualties. We are not as humane as we like to think we are, after all.

All of those considerations... as opposed to the entirety of humanity bowing down to demonic rule and essentially agreeing to being tortured and or enslaved? If one of the understandings which prevented the Cold War from turning hot was that any sizeable force invading the territory of a nuclear power was that they would be met with nuclear retaliation. Why wouldn't that response be extended to essentially an alien invasion? If the option is the complete surrender of the entirety of humanity to a sadistic demonic force -- which would essentially be the whole of humanity committing suicide as a species -- what's a few cities?

And not all nukes need to be ICBMs or other hard to re-target systems. A smaller tactical weapon will still fuck up an invading army pretty. If I recall correctly, there are over 400 B-61 jet fighter-delivered tactical gravity bombs in the US stockpile alone. Not to mention the other tactical nukes which are in storage but maintained in good condition so as to quickly reactivate if needed.

[iidave]

Ilya: Nuclear weapons would most certainly be used. And quite possibly by both sides. And the story wouldn't have to be short. Even an all-out-no-holds-barred nuclear war wouldn't kill nearly as many people as the chaos that would (inevitably) follow.
http://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/82cab/index.html

Nuclear weapons, missiles, and chemical and biological weapons...

Have all been used in WW2 (well, atomic weapons, but the difference between atomic and nuclear is lost on most people anyway).

no doubt we'll win

I do doubt it. Human victory would heavily depend on how fast humans can develop portal technology to strike at Dis.


Although... come to think of it... Why would the demons even want to wage a costly war against Earth? What have they got to gain? All humans go to Hell anyway so why bother?

[MrCIA]

Satans ego?

[Darth Yan]

humanity said fuck you and killed their messangers. Besides, they do develop portal tech partly from collaborators. it's all adressed in story bub

[Ilya Muromets]

Ilya: Nuclear weapons would most certainly be used. And quite possibly by both sides. And the story wouldn't have to be short. Even an all-out-no-holds-barred nuclear war wouldn't kill nearly as many people as the chaos that would (inevitably) follow.
http://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/82cab/index.html

Nuclear weapons, missiles, and chemical and biological weapons...

Have all been used in WW2 (well, atomic weapons, but the difference between atomic and nuclear is lost on most people anyway).

no doubt we'll win

I do doubt it. Human victory would heavily depend on how fast humans can develop portal technology to strike at Dis.


Although... come to think of it... Why would the demons even want to wage a costly war against Earth? What have they got to gain? All humans go to Hell anyway so why bother?

And where would the demons get their nuclear weapons? How would they even develop them in the first place? Are there even uranium deposits in hell? How would they know who to look for to interrogate in the first place since the knowledge to build nukes was never as widespead among people or as easy to figure out as that needed to make conventional arms?

And even if that wasn't the problem,if they have WW2-level technology then their bombs are all heavy, multi-ton monsters which need to be fielded by prop bombers. Those things would be sitting ducks for a 50s-era jet armed with nothing but cannon, and a total turkey shoot for modern-era jets with long-range intercept weapons.

EDIT: You also mentioned WW2 missiles. Leave aside that these would be no match for a modern anti-air missile battery, these were missiles whose targeting was so poor compared to modern standards that the only way they'd be useful is if nukes were mounted on them. Except, WW2-era missiles did not have the capacity to be fitted with WW2-era nukes. The V2 could only carry 980 kg of payload -- far less than the TONS of weight of old-fashioned nukes.

[iidave]

And where would the demons get their nuclear weapons? How would they even develop them in the first place? Are there even uranium deposits in hell? How would they know who to look for to interrogate in the first place since the knowledge to build nukes was never as widespead among people or as easy to figure out as that needed to make conventional arms?

And even if that wasn't the problem,if they have WW2-level technology then their bombs are all heavy, multi-ton monsters which need to be fielded by prop bombers. Those things would be sitting ducks for a 50s-era jet armed with nothing but cannon, and a total turkey shoot for modern-era jets with long-range intercept weapons.

1,2 )With the help of dead nuclear scientists.
3) I don't know what minerals are in Hell, but if there are heavy elements there, WW2 tech can get you fission type devices.
4) A lot of people know who Einstein, Oppenheimer, etc are. During the 1950s these men were celebrities.
5) Nuclear mines, bomb delivery via portals, nuclear artillery...

EDIT: 6) Merely saying that they wouldn't be a shocking revelation to a WW2 mind. As with everything else - they would be better than what was used in WW2, but they would be recognizeable. Even ATGMs and SAM/AAMs were already in development during WW2 - http://www.oocities.com/augusta/8172/panzerfaust12.htm

[darksoul]

Now, back to the nukes, I have a question. Strategically, what would have happened if Abigor woudl have used kamikaze armies in certain places, specially American mainland, where the counter strike with nuclears would have been suicidal. More interestingly, how about tossing second life humans back with bombs strapped in their bodies? Specially if these second life humans are those killed in action, and therefore show their comrade the fate expecting them upon dying. The blow in morale would have been terrible. So the question is, can we use nukes on every army that attack us in this scenario? And more important: if we do, would there be Earth enough left for us to live in?After all, I don't believe anyone can fool themselves thinking that the reason nuclear weapons are not used convetionally is other than their high production cost and the fact that the area of impact is unusable for long periods of time, with unpredictable consequences on the environment. If there were to be a clean nuclear weapon, it would be used more often regardless of human casualties. We are not as humane as we like to think we are, after all.

All of those considerations... as opposed to the entirety of humanity bowing down to demonic rule and essentially agreeing to being tortured and or enslaved? If one of the understandings which prevented the Cold War from turning hot was that any sizeable force invading the territory of a nuclear power was that they would be met with nuclear retaliation. Why wouldn't that response be extended to essentially an alien invasion? If the option is the complete surrender of the entirety of humanity to a sadistic demonic force -- which would essentially be the whole of humanity committing suicide as a species -- what's a few cities?

And not all nukes need to be ICBMs or other hard to re-target systems. A smaller tactical weapon will still fuck up an invading army pretty. If I recall correctly, there are over 400 B-61 jet fighter-delivered tactical gravity bombs in the US stockpile alone. Not to mention the other tactical nukes which are in storage but maintained in good condition so as to quickly reactivate if needed.

No, the point is not whether we should, but what would happen if we do. That's why I called the armies "kamikaze armies", as they would be wiped out by the nuclear blast. The point is, once the invasion was proved impossible, this could be a very bloody strategy, but a possible one: as long as humans can enter Hell, our own counter strikes will decapitate our own society. We are not talking that humans will become extinct because of this, but the social and economical damage inflicted by our own weapons on ourselves. This is a losing proposition for us and not quite for baldricks since they don't care that much about casualties. In the long run, society can crumble and countries may turn into one another.

Of course it requires that the portal opened the first time is closed quickly after the first defeat of Abigor, any demons defecting as Abigor did (which he wouldn't if he had any choice, by the way) and extreme care not giving humans hints on portal opening. kind of how Michael did.

Now that I think about it... There is baldrick-human descendants... how about angel-human descent? i don't remember this being addressed...

[Ilya Muromets]

1,2 )With the help of dead nuclear scientists.
3) I don't know what minerals are in Hell, but if the have heavy elements, WW2 tech can get you fission type devices.
4) A lot of people know who Einstein, Oppenheimer, etc are. During the 1950s these men were celebrities.
5) Nuclear mines, bomb delivery via portals, nuclear artillery...

Nuclear scientists do not an atomic infrastructure make. All that knowledge is USELESS without infrastructure to support it. Oppenheimer alone didn't design the infrastructure needed to manufacture nukes. Ditto Einstein. And so what if Hell has uranium? If they haven't heard of nukes prior to bagging these guys, then how would they have learned of uranium in the first place? Before nuclear power, few people gave a shit about uranium or plutonium. Hell, few people even knew what those were. So how are they suddenly going to start mining those in massive quantities if A) they don't know what they are in the first place and B) have no clue where in Hell to start looking?

And let's put nuke size in perspective, shall we? Little Boy weighed in at over 4 METRIC TONS. Artillery? Not unless you're lugging around big, heavy Dora-style guns which are poor at mobility which makes them easy targets.

Mines? There were no mines that fucking big and that fucking heavy. And being that fucking big and that fucking heavy means it'll be hard to lug around.

The only way to deliver nukes that would be viable is portals. But, again, how do they do that if they don't have the nukes, don't have it in large numbers, or if humanity figures out the portals in time to counter them? And humanity did figure out portals and their counters pretty damn fast in the original story. And that assumes they'd go for a first strike instead of that grand invasion they did in the story.

[darksoul]

Nuclear weapons, missiles, and chemical and biological weapons...

Have all been used in WW2 (well, atomic weapons, but the difference between atomic and nuclear is lost on most people anyway).

...

Although... come to think of it... Why would the demons even want to wage a costly war against Earth? What have they got to gain? All humans go to Hell anyway so why bother?[/quote]

But we are talking about a technology with that level, not the precise technology of the WW2 They might had the possibility, but I don't believe they would use chemical or biological weapons, although they are susceptible to it. After all, there seem to be no microbes in Hell, as no first humans or baldricks has been seen sick, have they?

And I agree with the thought of why baldricks should worry. If you want to step it up a notch, why would Yahwe bother tell anything to us? we might as well be left to our own petty hatreds and condemned to the afterlife of torture, as has always been. Then again that wouldn't be consistent with Yahwe (or Satan's) personalities... and wouldn't make a good story, anyways

[Ilya Muromets]

No, the point is not whether we should, but what would happen if we do. That's why I called the armies "kamikaze armies", as they would be wiped out by the nuclear blast. The point is, once the invasion was proved impossible, this could be a very bloody strategy, but a possible one: as long as humans can enter Hell, our own counter strikes will decapitate our own society. We are not talking that humans will become extinct because of this, but the social and economical damage inflicted by our own weapons on ourselves. This is a losing proposition for us and not quite for baldricks since they don't care that much about casualties. In the long run, society can crumble and countries may turn into one another.

Of course it requires that the portal opened the first time is closed quickly after the first defeat of Abigor, any demons defecting as Abigor did (which he wouldn't if he had any choice, by the way) and extreme care not giving humans hints on portal opening. kind of how Michael did.

Now that I think about it... There is baldrick-human descendants... how about angel-human descent? i don't remember this being addressed...

Okay, looked at it that way, that is plausible. However, do remember that to send these Kamikaze armies in the first place they need to open a portal large enough for said armies to pass. Portals that large become permanent, just like the Hellgate in Iraq. Now consider that this theoretical WW2-level Baldrick army would have vehicles and other such equipment which would need to be spaced further for a deployment, which would necessitate an even larger portal.

The very act of portaling over those Kamikaze armies in the first place gives humans access to Hell. Didn't take humans long to jerry-rig filters to allow jet operations into Hell. Given the gravity of the threat, priority would be filtering nuclear bombers and sending them in armed with gravity bombs to take out as much of the demonic threat as fast as possible before the buggers try anything else. Yes, there's still all that messy non-linear directionality to figure out even then. But now you have a human presence in Hell, essentially untouchable by WW2-level weaponry if they fly smart and keep at high speed and altitude.

Now it's the Baldricks who have to turn their attention to an enemy incursion force in their territory.