The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[FireNexus]

Pardon me for asking, but I am wondering how conservation of mass is gotten around/ignored by this. Given the attention to detail made to ensuring that the portals couldn't be made into perpetual motion machines, I am quite curious on this front.

Why even worry about it? It must conserve, so the Minos portal does something to the matter that is irreversible, and that can only be seen on the other side. We'll eventually crack it, but I like the idea of Minos remaining a mystery, at least for a while.

[Eulogy]

I'd agree with all of that. It's fairly obvious that we're dealing with something that is much more powerful than any known human pheremones here and given the possible applications of the basic science it's fair to bet that a lot of people are studying exactly what the chemistry is (and, being humans, how they can make some money off it). In fact, we have a story segment in that area coming up shortly (which acts as foreshadowing of an important section of the third book). Being able to affect human emotions by means of a chemical exudate is an incredibly powerful weapon, there's a good reason why people are ebginning to realize that the Succubae are indvidually the most dangerous of the daemons.

"Honey, please nuke those bad people for me."
"Honey, please give me all of your assets then kill this bad person."
"She's got entire crowds following her. Holy shit."
"I didn't do anything. He attacked first."

[JBG]

"It didn't allow it, it eased it. Humans could have eventually found a way of punching in, especially if the daemonic army tried to form portals to escape rather than retreating to one. To be really nasty, the war could have ended with humans simply forming portals and pushing multi-megaton nukes in until Hell was fried. Capturing a portal forced thew ar to a conventional land battle. By the way, notice that portal capture was an important part of the Great Celestial War and teh other skirmishes."

If it is not a problem then we should not be there. If it is a problem then it should not be there. Classic TBOverse realpolitik.

[Emerson33260]

And, going back to my questions on the Resurrection Machinery... (I'm almost nervous about what sort of character would be based on my questions...)

You probably should be; at this point I'm picturing a cross between Satan and Josef Mengele...

Come to think of it, he's down there somewhere.

Interesting that you are still making these assumptions this far into the stories. People end up in heaven because the Lan-Yahweh want them there, not necessarily because they conform to any formulaic definition of good and evil. That may even still be true in spite of the "closed" sign on the Pearly Gates. Maybe they just turned off the automatic selection routine on the turnstile at the base of Jacob's Escalator.

[PainRack]

Given how thin logistic networks have become over the years as just in time came into being, thin industrial excess and a massive consumption in resources from an industrialising China/India, won't the Bowl of Wrath and even military deployments to Myanmar be disastrous on Main Street?


I would imagine food shortages are starting to come in place, especially for countries with poor infrastructure and planning capabilities. Disruption to transport from storms and the pirority on military production could had stunning cultural and social impacts on smaller towns and cities. For one, no access to fresh food and produce could had impact on the vegan community and other specialised communities. Similarly, cultural taboo such as halal and kosher might still be enforced due to force of habit but they would face problems in commiting to such a diet. Water rationing could lead to limited showers and the dying of green lawns........ one would imagine that Obama "energy independence" bill and water saving measures in Australia might well now have jingoism attached to it for compliance purposes.

Hell, let's not imagine what the disruption to channel V and MTV might have on youths:D

[Jamesfirecat]

I would imagine food shortages are starting to come in place, especially for countries with poor infrastructure and planning capabilities. Disruption to transport from storms and the pirority on military production could had stunning cultural and social impacts on smaller towns and cities. For one, no access to fresh food and produce could had impact on the vegan community and other specialised communities. Similarly, cultural taboo such as halal and kosher might still be enforced due to force of habit but they would face problems in commiting to such a diet. Water rationing could lead to limited showers and the dying of green lawns........ one would imagine that Obama "energy independence" bill and water saving measures in Australia might well now have jingoism attached to it for compliance purposes.

I'd imagine that portals to and from hell are being used to ship large quantities of food back and forth, so I'd be willing to bet that transportation of resources from one place to another is now less of an issue than it ever was before.

On the other stuff you bring up I've got nothing to say, i just really doubt humanity is suffering from a "we've got what we need but we can't get it to where it needs to be" problem now that we've mastered (or at least gotten a basic degree in) thinking with portals.

[Simon_Jester]

The effect of the psychotropic agent itself isn't as potent, but its clear that the amount of chemical present necessarily to trigger the desired effict is on the same order as a nerve agent like VX. Nerve agents have tiny LD50s (VX is 0.14 mg/kg) and so air circulations systems that exist to make chemical weapons* attacks on an office a survivable experience have to be incredibly powerful. If those same systems are needed as full protection against succubi, the median dose of miasma molecule needed for full effect may not as slim as nerve agents, but it's close.

I think it's somewhere between that extreme and more 'normal' ventilation systems. For instance, I remember from Armageddon a case of a demon lord sitting next to a window because, by trial and error, he'd worked out that this made the miasma less dangerous. Still dangerous, I assume, but less so.

That would be absolutely useless against nerve gas, but at least slightly useful against, say, really strong perfume.
_________

The warm and fuzzy feeling that succubus miasma causes strikes me as very similar to beta-endorphine or some other opioid. If that's true and the miasma is hitting those receptors, high doses of miasma (like, say, licking a succubus while she is sweaty) would be like getting a blast of morphine. You'd be floating for hours. Worse, it may have an addictive quality to it, meaning long term exposure to a succubus might cause some chemical dependence on their presence. This is particularly sinister, given the daemonic penchant for slavery and forming cults.

The word "hag-ridden" comes to mind...

Pardon me for asking, but I am wondering how conservation of mass is gotten around/ignored by this. Given the attention to detail made to ensuring that the portals couldn't be made into perpetual motion machines, I am quite curious on this front.

Mass may be conserved over an N-dimensional multiverse without being conserved in any one three-dimensional space. Throw a rock into the Minos portal and it goes somewhere; it's just that "somewhere" isn't anywhere in the space you know and love.
_________

Interesting that you are still making these assumptions this far into the stories. People end up in heaven because the Lan-Yahweh want them there, not necessarily because they conform to any formulaic definition of good and evil. That may even still be true in spite of the "closed" sign on the Pearly Gates. Maybe they just turned off the automatic selection routine on the turnstile at the base of Jacob's Escalator.

I make this assumption for a simple reason:

We have NO, repeat NO examples of any modern or semi-modern humans in Heaven who were not specifically brought there by Michael... who does so in secret, without the sanction of Yahweh. That includes both the good humans and the evil humans. I assume Mengele is in Hell in this story because everyone who died that century seems to be, with only a few exceptions. And all those exceptions would plausibly be useful to Michael. Josef Mengele would not be. Mengele is not a guy you want operating on you, so he's useless as a doctor. Michael has no need to go recruiting on Earth for torturers, since he seems to be able to find perfectly satisfactory ones among the angels, so Mengele is superfluous as a torturer.

And I have no reason to assume that Mengele would make a talented nightclub musician, which is the only other thing Michael brings people in for.

So his personal evil is completely irrelevant. I assume Mengele ended up in Hell in this setting for much the same reasons I assume he had five toes on each foot. I don't specifically know, but it is by far the most probable assumption.

[Sea Skimmer]

Given how thin logistic networks have become over the years as just in time came into being, thin industrial excess and a massive consumption in resources from an industrialising China/India, won't the Bowl of Wrath and even military deployments to Myanmar be disastrous on Main Street?

Shouldn’t be any worse then the world wars as far as I can see. I mean we kept transportation going fine even though in each world war the U-boats sank a large fraction of all the ships that existed on the entire planet upon the outbreak of war. No sea lanes are physically denied to shipping by enemy air bases or surface ships either.

I would imagine food shortages are starting to come in place, especially for countries with poor infrastructure and planning capabilities. Disruption to transport from storms and the pirority on military production could had stunning cultural and social impacts on smaller towns and cities.

Food shortages will not be a major strategic problem, a huge portion of the worlds grain supply is currently fed to livestock for meat and milk production both of which would be rationed. Since a cow takes 10 pounds of grain to make 1 pound of meat, the potential for conserving food is enormous. This will be vital since we also need to conserve fertilizer as we need the chemicals to make explosives. Poor countries are in some cases probably better off not worse now because with a global mobilized war effort aid is no longer limited by tiny budget allocations from first world nations. Areas heavily dependent on fishing would be the main troublespots.

It’d also be easy to see mass movements of third world labor into first world nations to help keep up food production in the face of local labor and fuel shortages. We should also consider the vast potential for growing food in hell. The demons apparently must do so on a very large scale to support a totally meat based diet, and with constant volcanic activity the soil should be very rich.

For one, no access to fresh food and produce could had impact on the vegan community and other specialised communities. Similarly, cultural taboo such as halal and kosher might still be enforced due to force of habit but they would face problems in commiting to such a diet. Water rationing could lead to limited showers and the dying of green lawns........ one would imagine that Obama "energy independence" bill and water saving measures in Australia might well now have jingoism attached to it for compliance purposes.

We rationed fresh food in the world wars and got by fine, if people don’t want to eat what they get then they can starve. No one is going to care if some small ethnic group can’t get fresh cantaloupe when humanity itself is threatened. If they want it they can plant a victory garden. I should imagine those have become very popular, and already in real life the US at least has a growing movement towards growing vegetables at home.

Hell, let's not imagine what the disruption to channel V and MTV might have on youths:D

TV production is going to be crippled primarily by fuel rationing, but huge amounts of new content, particularly content that can utilize youths below draft age and requiring only small budgets will still be produced. So MTV will be near immune. Its not like Hollywood stopped making movies in WW2… and heck the Nazis made some of the largest (in terms of size of action and number of cast members) movies ever made in the middle of 1944.

[GrayAnderson]

I'd agree with all of that. It's fairly obvious that we're dealing with something that is much more powerful than any known human pheremones here and given the possible applications of the basic science it's fair to bet that a lot of people are studying exactly what the chemistry is (and, being humans, how they can make some money off it). In fact, we have a story segment in that area coming up shortly (which acts as foreshadowing of an important section of the third book). Being able to affect human emotions by means of a chemical exudate is an incredibly powerful weapon, there's a good reason why people are ebginning to realize that the Succubae are indvidually the most dangerous of the daemons.

You know, though, it strikes me that the CIA and so forth would have a good use for them.

And part of me, seeing the effects of millions of years of what appears to be genetic engineering in the form of the angels and demons, is wondering what a race that actually understands the general underlying principles of genetics and now has access to species that can alter DNA in some form (i.e. what produces the nephilim) could do with that, at least on the intellectual level.

...and of course, that actually made me wonder: Do resurrected humans still have standard DNA?

[Simon_Jester]

TV production is going to be crippled primarily by fuel rationing, but huge amounts of new content, particularly content that can utilize youths below draft age and requiring only small budgets will still be produced. So MTV will be near immune. Its not like Hollywood stopped making movies in WW2… and heck the Nazis made some of the largest (in terms of size of action and number of cast members) movies ever made in the middle of 1944.

Strictly true, but they were crazy-stupid when it came to mass mobilization. Kind of ironic given their historical reputation as the efficient all-conquering antiheroic* guys.

*Not in the existential literary sense or the comic book "I'm an antihero because I'm a badass" sense, but in the sense of being so vicious that their vices turn into a sort of sick reflection of virtues, so that they end up with this mystique as history's most magnificent bastards.

[Baughn]

...and of course, that actually made me wonder: Do resurrected humans still have standard DNA?

Standard human DNA does not code for full regeneration; nowhere near that, in fact.

If they do, it's not in charge.

[Emerson33260]

So his personal evil is completely irrelevant. I assume Mengele ended up in Hell in this setting for much the same reasons I assume he had five toes on each foot. I don't specifically know, but it is by far the most probable assumption.

I had forgotten until I reviewed the history just now how negligible Dr. Mengele's researches were towards any objectives other than gratifying his personal sadistic urges. Who Michael-lan really wants is Dr. Gerhardt Schrader, assuming that heaven has the ability to reproduce 1945 chemical technology. Poison gas will be very effective when only one side can use it.

[Stuart]

Stuart, your portal reasoning makes sense. Thanks for explaining it!

No problem; thank you for your input. I don't know if this came out the way I intended, but one of the distinctive features that distinguise portals driven from Hellside to Earth to portals driven from Earth to Hellside is that the Hellside based portals require a degree of effort to close them and that effort increases with size. Even the largest portals can be closed but the effort needed to do so is so great that it's beyond daemonic ability. Humans can do it but only with great effort and specially-designed equipment. Portals drilled from Earth to Hellside require constant effort to keep open; if that effort stops or is broken, the portal collapses.
Spoiler

The Minos Portal is actually a gate to the next level up. We live in Universe-One, the Hell/Heaven level is Universe Two, whatever lies the other side of the Minos Portal is Universe-Three. Its physical laws are as different from Universe-Two's as ours are. The problem is that cumulative differences mean that Universe-Three occupants can't interact with those of Universe-One (we can't exist in their universe and they can't in ours). So whatever is going on with the dead and all that is something the Universe-Three occupants are up to but we simply have no conception of what that plan is. The Minos Gate is a death analog; the only way to find out for certain what lies the other side is to go through and once that's done, the investigator can't come back and tell anybody. By the way, the suggestion that the primary city of Universe-Three is called R'lyeh has been officially denied.

[tim31]

Re the above spoiler
Spoiler

No interaction between U-1 and U-3 means no UAVs? Not even a dredge on a long rope tossed through?

[DataPacRat]

Re the above spoiler
Spoiler

No interaction between U-1 and U-3 means no UAVs? Not even a dredge on a long rope tossed through?

Or Spoiler

using materials from /U-2/ rather than from U-1 to try to investigate U-3?

[Stuart]

"Honey, please nuke those bad people for me."
"Honey, please give me all of your assets then kill this bad person."
"She's got entire crowds following her. Holy shit."
"I didn't do anything. He attacked first."

This is probably where a clever (and dangerous) succubus could be distinguised from an inexperienced one. A direct, blatant command like that would jerk the recipient out of the nice fuzzy haze they're in. "You want me to do WHAT??? No Way." An experienced succubus, one who has been in the business a few millenia would take things nice and slowly. Create a situation where she's accepted and has a position of some consequence, one where what she says and does sounds reasonable.

"Honey, you don't want to worry about paying all these bills. Why don't you let me write the checks? Oh, and that nasty person down the street called me a whore again today. Still, he was probably just having a bad day, don't worry about it."

Certainly, the abilities of Succubae and Incubae will make them prime suspects when forming cults is concerned. In fact, given the sexual practices in a lot of cults, one might suspect they have been doing that for quite some time. This puts an entirely new aspect on, for example, Manson's gang or the Jonestown massacre.

[Stuart]

Re the above spoiler
Spoiler

No interaction between U-1 and U-3 means no UAVs? Not even a dredge on a long rope tossed through?

Spoiler

Nope, None at all. Toss a dredge on a long line through and the dredge never comes back and the line now ends at the point it went through the Minos Portal. Doubtless great minds will be thinking on ways to investigate what lies beyond the gate but for TSW it will remain an enigmatic and frightening mystery.

[Simon_Jester]

"Honey, please nuke those bad people for me."
"Honey, please give me all of your assets then kill this bad person."
"She's got entire crowds following her. Holy shit."
"I didn't do anything. He attacked first."

This is probably where a clever (and dangerous) succubus could be distinguised from an inexperienced one. A direct, blatant command like that would jerk the recipient out of the nice fuzzy haze they're in. "You want me to do WHAT??? No Way." An experienced succubus, one who has been in the business a few millenia would take things nice and slowly. Create a situation where she's accepted and has a position of some consequence, one where what she says and does sounds reasonable.

Yeah. There's a difference between "drugged into euphoria" and "brains have been surgically removed." Any happy drug potent enough to get someone to give you all their money and go kill someone would probably be potent enough to fry your mind entirely, at which point you'd be so incapable of coherent thought that you couldn't do the job even if you wanted to.

[GrayAnderson]

Re the above spoiler
Spoiler

No interaction between U-1 and U-3 means no UAVs? Not even a dredge on a long rope tossed through?

Spoiler

Nope, None at all. Toss a dredge on a long line through and the dredge never comes back and the line now ends at the point it went through the Minos Portal. Doubtless great minds will be thinking on ways to investigate what lies beyond the gate but for TSW it will remain an enigmatic and frightening mystery.

Spoiler

Well, for what it's worth, you have answered a bunch of questions with that statement. I am curious as to why a daemon couldn't go through, but I'll just assume that they're from a genetic background that's at least partially U1-based, creating a major hangup in the process (frankly, if sending a known reliable daemon through the gate for a walk through the gate to take notes would answer the problem then I'd be grumbling). That would cover that particular problem.

It also addresses, indirectly, at least some of who is behind this whole system. It explains the inability to remember what goes on behind the gate. It also explains the inability of Second Life humans to survive back on Earth, as well as offers something of a hint as to why they have such odd properties. It doesn't explain why Second Life humans can't go through, but I'd be willing to take an explanation of "sanity problems are associated with this" and/or "you just can't remember as your mind really can't process it", among others, for this. It's also possible that they'd suffer similar effects to going back to Earth even if they could go through.

I am willing to speculate that some of the higher angels (i.e. Michael) as well as the deity-level entities can probably go through (and I would cite likely deity DNA for the explanation here). Whether the latter are native to U3 or not is something that I am both willing to speculate on and willing to let lie for now.

I did want to ask, by way of curiousity, ask if you were going to do anything regarding U0 (the thing we "know" to be "above" us in this stack)? That only came back to mind because of explicit mention of U3 and further discussion isn't exactly important (see the fact that it had only come to mind because of this), but the question begs asking.

Anyhow, thanks for the tidbit. It's good to at least get some understanding of things, and I'm at least glad to know not to be waiting for the next 120 chapters of the series for an explanation.

[Valiran]

"This area’s bad enough normally, now with everybody wanting home after the Uriel attack and the Man himself skewered on the Crystal Cathedral, it’s as bad as it has ever been. You’re stuck, live with it.”

...am I reading this right? Because it sounded like the policeman is saying Urinal fell onto a church steeple and got skewered by it!

Interesting view of the IDF by the way. Is it really that bad?

[Murphy is far too powerful to be a daemon in the Salvation War setting; he must surely be one of the dreaded "devils."

Actually, TVTropes says otherwise. Not sure if it's correct, mind you, but it appears to be accurate.

[Lonestar]

Interesting view of the IDF by the way. Is it really that bad?

The IDF is a conscript military that happens to be about an order of magnitude better than it's neighbors in doing stuff. Because they've never fought any comparable countries, they have a bit of institutional cockiness that causes them to be weak in some areas.

[Pelranius]

I thought a lot of their problems had to do with their NCO corps, who seem to be fairly technically orientated, which means that the junior officers have to do more than their NATO counterparts? Or is the problem at their flag officer level?

[Edward Yee]

The description of TSW IDF reminds me of the analogy about warriors as opposed to soldiers in discussing the Curb Stomp War...

[Simon_Jester]

I wouldn't take it that far.

The Israelis have a real army; it's not just a bunch of individual guys who are so busy trying to show off how hard they are that they end up losing the war because they can't get their act together. They may not be at the top of the charts in some areas, but they're well up there in the territory of historic "soldier" armies.

[Edward Yee]

Point taken; I guess General Marosy's analogy was what got me to think about it, minus (as you point) the emphasis on personal glory.