The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Letomo]

Joined the board for this story [and Armageddon!]. Very good reads!

Hmm. Had a thought. What if Michael sends someone he considers a doofus to the Russian front [Earth], and the guy seems to start succeeding! Maybe that guy that he dismissed as a threat, since he was brainless. Those can be considered that way because they so fervently believe in a cause [Yah-yah], that they don't appear to think. But, give them a mission inside their beliefs, and they can prosper. Rare, but it can happen.

Hope that makes sense.

[Simon_Jester]

Joined the board for this story [and Armageddon!]. Very good reads!

Hmm. Had a thought. What if Michael sends someone he considers a doofus to the Russian front [Earth], and the guy seems to start succeeding! Maybe that guy that he dismissed as a threat, since he was brainless. Those can be considered that way because they so fervently believe in a cause [Yah-yah], that they don't appear to think. But, give them a mission inside their beliefs, and they can prosper. Rare, but it can happen.

The trick is that they're faced with an outside-context problem. Like Uriel, they don't understand what they're fighting clearly enough to come up with proper countermeasures until after the enemy manages to bite them in the ass. Uriel was tough and lucky enough to survive and learn from several encounters with human forces, and became more effective each time; a lesser angel would have trouble getting away with it.

[StrikaAmaru]

He'd also have to give up his band of talented humans, his nice, swanky night club, and either find a way to transport his massive stash of drugs or try and find a new source ASAP once he resettles.

True dat. But see below, and keep in mind, for an angel a hundred years is like yesterday, so what if he spends a coupla days without music?

Escape, while tempting, is not a good idea; the humans would realize that Michael wasn't among the dead or the POWs, and will start a Heaven-wide manhunt. It's going to take a long, long time, but they'll keep trying to find him. The war would not be considered over until the last remnants of Heaven call it quits and turn themselves in.

I mean, would *you*, assuming you were in Petraeus' shoes, declare victory after Yahweh's defeat, knowing full well that his best and brightest general is out there, maybe even plotting for his eventual return? Or will you take the chance and assume he's not coming back? I doubt the humans would let him be, or even assume he's gone. A few centuries is yesterday to a demon or angel, after all. He just might come back to attack your grandkids or great-great-grandkids.

If it were my option, I'd shoot him ASAP. Even if he surrenders, laws of engagement be damned.

Humans definitely won't fall for it; he is well known to HEA, and I did admit that. The catch is, it was my understanding that whomever tries to find Michael needs at least a small amount of familiarity with him, or some basic idea as to which bubble/universe the target is in. If Michael manages to erase both location and personal connection, his chances have gone up substantially. Petraeus and HEA can declare war for as long as it takes; if they can't find some extra information to act as restriction for the gigantic search space they need to explore in order to find Michael (the whole damn Omniverse, to borrow Marvel Comics lingo), it won't amount to anything.

As a nitpick to my own previous post, I said that relocating to a third "upper-tier" bubble Universe would be overkill for Michael; that doesn't hold water, in light of the power gradient: he would be relatively immune from Earth-bound scans, but somebody looking for Michael from Hell would have a much easier time finding him. So it'd really be a better solution to establish a cult on other-Earth and then relocate to an upper level.

A brighter note, regarding replacing his human talents: since he's engineering the religion from ground-up, he could just label arts and music as a thing pleasant to the gods; condition entry to New Heaven on either talent, or, for those who don't have it, blind servitude (somebody has to work the fields and shine their floors). Oh, and he could make cannabis a holy plant. Harder drugs, too. Portal once, twice, how many times you wish, and collect your loyal minions' offerings.

The rub isn't what he does afterwards, it's how he gets there in the first place. And I don't think he'll even think of getting there.

[EDIT:] snipped the second part of the reply; needs more work, and it's too long already.

[StrikaAmaru]

A much easier choice, leastways for Michael-Lan, is to say "Hey, look, I was just following orders, and Yahweh's completely insane! He'd have slaughtered me and my buddies if I didn't do what he said!!" It worked for Euryale, didn't it? And besides, it's not like anyone will ask Yahweh about that; knowing how deluded the jerk is, he'd probably not believe that he was losing right until a anti-capital ship weapon relieves him of his bowels (and other vital organs). As for the loyal angels, Michael would just send them on suicide missions (can you say "Russian front, WW2"? Lots of unwanted German generals lost their lives there) until he winds up with the small fry and civilians who aren't likely to question their surviving leader when he tells them to put down their arms and surrender before the humans slaughter them all. Michael's not going to be given Supreme Throne of Heaven if the humans make their way in, but this way he can keep his businesses growing. Provided he can keep the drug trade under control, or at least out of the way for the HEA, I think he might actually be considered a major benefactor to Heaven's society in future.

And yes, I am aware of the massive balls and karma houdini this entails. But it's Michael-Lan; I'm pretty sure he can pull it off.

In the place of Earth and HEA, I wouldn't swallow this even if it were dipped in honey. There are several things that make Michael's surrender fairly unpalatable to Earth humans:

Firstly, demonic forces surrendered after horrid amounts of slaughter; I do think an amount of guilt entered the equation for human forces. Then again, I'm second guessing my own opinion, since I as reader have had a different perspective on demons and never did actually hate their side.

Secondly, human response will be calibrated, consciously or unconsciously, by the threat level of the enemy: demons marched under our guns in Irak, and died like idiots; they launched a few inconsequential attacks in malls, and also died. Demons were defeated pathetically easy; true, we did nearly exhaust our supplies of ammunition, but that just means there were $#!tloads of them, not that they were any good.

Angels are different; they actually scored damage, with little loss on their side (In here, I count: abnormal hurricanes, general weather havoc; the loss of all Spirits. The bowls of Wrath were somewhat of a failure, from this perspective; not from Mickey's but we're not talking about his pov now. The beasts count very little, but the use of informants is much more important: it pegs the enemy as dangerously intelligent.)

What I want to get at: the demons were not effective, and they did not trigger the signals which let something be identified as a threat. The angels, on the other hand, are pushing all psychological buttons to be labeled a threat by anyone on Earth.

Thirdly, humans have reasons to hate angels: their side started the war, their side deceived "us" for millenia, their side did damage. For this reason alone, an angelic surrender will be treated far more roughly than a demonic one.

EDIT: And in any case, Belial is a wanted war criminal. Euryale and Baroness Yuku might have gotten away with it thus far, but I doubt Belial would get off so easily. Unless he hires a human attorney (and yes, the "lawyers in Hell joke" is way, way overdone already) then he might get off on a loophole. If the Lawyer's good enough. Otherwise, it's centuries in prison or a direct trip to the execution chamber.

Belial and Michael both trigger the "threat threshold" I mentioned above. In doing so, they also commit war crimes, but I see that as a means to a psychological end. It's one way to look at things, and it's the one I made up, so I'm sticking to it

Hasn't anyone noticed I called Mickey "Michael-Lan-Michael"? I was rather proud of that...

[Blayne]

Greetings y'all, I just recently started reading (and finished reading up to ch41) Salvation War and nearly failed to hand in my thesis paper on time because of it. *shakes fist* "Alright, just one more chapter and I will get to work on my essay... just two more chapters and I will get to work on my essay..."

Salvation War is like reading Tom Clancy without all of the political baggage and author filibusters that come with it! *grin*

Anyways, this is excellent work that the author should definitely consider publishing and if you can get some capital should make a tv series or an anime out of, I would pay to watch it.

I also second the opinion that I would like to see Michael-lan survive, yes he is a jerk whose baited the dog too much for his own good but hes just so darn cool doing it, hes too funny to die.

I should point out that aside from being allegedly the top general and involved in a drug trade I don't think there's been any evidence he was involved in anything. He can be considered Heaven's equivalent of Willhelm Canaris or the July 11th plotters, he knows they are going to lose the war and making preparations for when it happens, he can also claim he has been secretly helping humans escape hell even though they were for his own ends.

Like how much evidence is there that Mikey-lan actually IS responsible? Anyone who could testify against him would be dead, the others are his allies and the rest are his clients and depend on him and the events that happen? They would have happened anyway and yes he DID send Uriel not to undefended places that would be easily targeted no, he sent Uriel to the most heavily defended places in the US, he could make a sound argument that he had been working against Yayyahs orders for a long time in preparation for this.

I would love to see him stand up to the podium to make his case in the equivilent of the Nuremburg warcrimes tribunals it would be awesome.

[TimothyC]

Like how much evidence is there that Mikey-lan actually IS responsible? Anyone who could testify against him would be dead, the others are his allies and the rest are his clients and depend on him and the events that happen?

He Medi-vac'd Uriel from outside of San Diego, and some humans watched him do so.

[Blayne]

Humans who are to an unknown extant loyal and grateful to Micheal-lan for saving them from either menial servitude or damnation. By this time he also knows that Humans have powerful counters and could argue that healing him now not only maintains his cover (and there would be no way to have him die under the surgical knife without blowing it) but if he heals him and sends him out again into certain doom he's not really harming that many humans as its only bad luck that Uriel got away each time.

The argument doesn't have to be 100% all he needs is an arguable rationalization that would sound good in court AND be backed up by his carefully chosen witnesses. Something that SOUNDS good and sounds PLAUSIBLE, and if he can back it up by evidence AND show that he has put effort into bringing the war to a close by ursurping Yayah then he can probably get some immunity.

[Saint_007]

I think he meant "he evac'ed Uriel while he was being hunted by local defense forces outside San Diego following his attack on Eucalyptus Hills". The witnesses in question are the helicopters and volunteers assigned to hunt Uriel down.

(I was going to do a court scene, but turns out it's too much effort. Bah)

Thing is, he can successfully counter that he was under strict orders to do so, and that the negligence of those orders would have had extremely unpleasant consequences for him. Yahweh himself told him to go get Uriel, with the implication that Yahweh wasn't going to take no for an answer (Hell, all his reactions, from the Message onwards, show how badly he takes rejection of his "Holy Truth"). Admittedly, after skimming through Pantheonicide, Heaven's going to get a rougher deal than Hell when the humans win, but Michael was still following orders because he had to.

[StrikaAmaru]

Blayne has a point.. I'm probably biased against Michael, as I know full well what an a-hole he is. He triggers my threat threshold, too. But Earth humans don't read the story, and don't have the birds-eye view I have.

If Mickey would surrender to me, his position would be terribly precarious; by Blayne's analysis, and US history with accreting former enemies, he would probably be treated much better, and surrender is indeed a viable option. With me, his only chance was to run like hell.

A side note: he still won't do it. He's too proud, and firmly convinced of his own superiority. Death awaits him, unless he's taken prisoner, which, considering what damage he can do, is most unlikely.

[Saint_007]

Dude, he not only triggers my "threat threshold", he pushes a few buttons. Maion, being an angel, probably wasn't the nicest girl around, but to be forced into prostitution and drug addiction? That's Grade-A A**hole material. If there's any justice, Michael would be at a few miles from a strategic nuke detonation (far enough to avoid getting flash-vaporised, close enough to catch fire and significant amounts of radiation). Then again, Yulupuki and Euryale are both responsible for Sheffield and Detroit, and both were pretty stuck-up about humans. And both got away.

[Loates]

Something of a change of subject here if that's OK, and I apologise in advance if this has already been covered but after several trawls through several hundred pages of several thousand comments and addendum I have found no further reference.

Early on in the first book, Armageddon, a Special Forces team discover and video-record human aborted foetuses being eaten by baldrics as a delicacy. President Bush ordered this knowledge to be kept top secret, on the grounds revealing this to the population at large would cause untold psychological harm to women and families who had suffered miscarriages, or worse had had abortions.

Now this is reasonable and a very believable plot point for the story. However . . . . .

Now that humanity is in control of the gates through which the 'dead' arrive in hell, one can assume that these 'dead' would also include foetuses; after all we must also assume as the general human population has no knowledge of the fate of aborted foetuses then there is no real compulsion to refrain from the practice of abortion, and of course miscarriages are what we once might have called 'act of God' but are, whatever phrase is now used in standard insurance disclaimers, essentially tragic mishaps.
We can also assume that given the human propensity for gossip or ‘office talk’ (especially within the confines of military barracks!) surely by now some information would have leaked out? I know this war would be unlike any other in all the history of life on Earth and the level of commitment to the war must be almost one hundred percent, but we do know there is still a handful, relatively speaking, who would side with the angels and would not balk at revealing this knowledge to the public. We might also assume there are still tabloid ‘newspapers’ amongst whose staff are some still prepared to sell their soul to, well, whoever, in order to get column inches.
What steps would have been put in place to keep this information extraordinarily secret (“Doublet Regal” is a phrase I remember reading somewhere a long time ago), and if keeping it secret was considered unfeasible, then how would the information have been released so as to minimise the mental anguish of those parents-to-be concerned?

Andy

[Simon_Jester]

Thirdly, humans have reasons to hate angels: their side started the war, their side deceived "us" for millenia, their side did damage. For this reason alone, an angelic surrender will be treated far more roughly than a demonic one.

Honestly, I'm not sure this is entirely fair; the demons seem to be getting off relatively lightly in terms of punishment for spending thousands of years throwing people into lakes of burning pitch and eating bits of them and stuff like that. It's not a question of one side being good; a pox on both their houses! But the other side was committing atrocities on a scale that make the Holocaust look petty, and did so continuously for thousands of years, even. I'm not sure the Salvation War angels should be treated worse than the Salvation War demons, even though it's been made quite clear in setting that they will.

Hasn't anyone noticed I called Mickey "Michael-Lan-Michael"? I was rather proud of that...

Now that you mention it, it is amusing.

Dude, he not only triggers my "threat threshold", he pushes a few buttons. Maion, being an angel, probably wasn't the nicest girl around, but to be forced into prostitution and drug addiction?

You know, there honestly isn't much evidence for the female angels being bad at all. They're kept cloistered and heavily oppressed- the second-class citizens of Heaven to go with the humans' third class. They have effectively no influence over the behavior of Yahweh, and with the notable exception of (Dumah?) the angel riding the Scarlet Beast, they have played no role in the war worth mentioning.

They may be the best opportunity to figure out whether all "supernaturals" are jackasses, or whether it's their culture making them so. Unlike the demons they aren't part of a society that makes mass torture one of its binding rituals, and unlike the male angels they aren't the enforcement arm of a hostile superbeing. They're just... there, in the background.

The analogy to women in fundamentalist Muslim societies in real life is fairly close (where do you think the Muslim fundies got the idea from?); they cannot reasonably be held responsible for the crimes of their government. Arguably, they constitute a secondary target for liberation (along with the dead humans).

[Blayne]

I'ld argue that evac'ing Uriel he can say that he had no choice in the matter and even so was intending to send him against another suicidal target when he gets the chance.

Hes an asshole but a funny asshole, I want him to survive.

He's pretty much like Jaraxle from Forgotten Realms, except our author has balls and actually shows our lovable rogue doing asshat behavior to go packaged with his awesome badassry.

While Salvatore bless him doesn't seem to want to write Jaxarle doing anything too mean for fear of ticking off his readers.

[Pelranius]

I'ld argue that evac'ing Uriel he can say that he had no choice in the matter and even so was intending to send him against another suicidal target when he gets the chance.

Hes an asshole but a funny asshole, I want him to survive.

He's pretty much like Jaraxle from Forgotten Realms, except our author has balls and actually shows our lovable rogue doing asshat behavior to go packaged with his awesome badassry.

While Salvatore bless him doesn't seem to want to write Jaxarle doing anything too mean for fear of ticking off his readers.

Michael's been compared to Goering in TBO. I could see Michael getting house arrest or something if he manages to make himself more useful to us (ratting out the other gods would be a good start).

[Blayne]

Ya, no. There's no comparison or semblance.

[LadyTevar]

Why don't we stop posting here, until there's some actual New Chapters, hmm?

--LadyT

[Blayne]

isnt the point of a thread about a creative work to discuss the work in question in between of updates?

[Saint_007]

Yeah, sorry about that LadyTevar. We know it's cluttering up the thread for those actively trying to read the story, but for some of us (okay, a lot of us), it's a way of blowing off steam. We're waiting for the next installment so bad that we need to talk some of the frustration off before we explode. And yes, we understand that Stuart isn't exactly 100% free to write up pure awesome every two days, so this is our way of waiting. Again, sorry.

[Blayne]

also the whole story is in cleaned up form in the cleaned up and completed fanfics section which the tv tropes page also links to, both are equally uptodate afaik.

[JBG]

Ya, no. There's no comparison or semblance.

I would not be too sure about that. Stuart's treatment of both is broadly similar. Have you read TBO?

[JN1]

I'd say there are notable similarities in the way that Stuart has written both characters. Both are depicted as being extremely charming, clever, but also deadly and capable of great evil. The main difference is that in TBO Goering realises what he has done and is trying to atone for it, Michael has not yet reached that stage, if he will at all.

[Blayne]

Ya, no. There's no comparison or semblance.

I would not be too sure about that. Stuart's treatment of both is broadly similar. Have you read TBO?

Ooooh is there a character called Goering somewhere else that Stuart has written about? I thought the Goering mentioned above somewhere on this page was in reference to Original timeline Hermann Goering of WWII Germany.

[JN1]

The character of Goering is featured towards the end of the origional TBO story and in at least one other (I forget which). See link.

[JBG]

I'd say there are notable similarities in the way that Stuart has written both characters. Both are depicted as being extremely charming, clever, but also deadly and capable of great evil. The main difference is that in TBO Goering realises what he has done and is trying to atone for it, Michael has not yet reached that stage, if he will at all.

Well put Jan.

Michael is at the same stage, perhaps, as Goering was in 43 to 44 in TBO.

Michael is an extremely dangerous character. I'm with the shoot on sight crowd.

[GrayAnderson]

1) Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.
2) I've got a new computer, which half-explains my absence over the last week.
3) On the older discussion of what to do with Christmas, there's a part of me that couldn't help but muse over the thoughts of "A Very Scary Solstice" being unpleasantly appropriate in some ways for this world. No, the beings in question won't necessarily break your mind, but...